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#384174 - 03/06/08 01:18 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IkC35VbWGvw

it looks like these fellas have a good idea. when they go to the ground, it looks like they all have some idea what to be doing, you can see that they attempt things like side control, and a few throws. the fights are kept standing up, but each one knows "fighting" as a package, in one way or another.
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#384175 - 03/06/08 02:36 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IkC35VbWGvw

it looks like these fellas have a good idea. when they go to the ground, it looks like they all have some idea what to be doing, you can see that they attempt things like side control, and a few throws. the fights are kept standing up, but each one knows "fighting" as a package, in one way or another.




More like easy controlled sparring. Bit unrealistic.
If I can find the video I refer to again I will post it.

Jude

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#384176 - 03/06/08 04:08 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IkC35VbWGvw

it looks like these fellas have a good idea. when they go to the ground, it looks like they all have some idea what to be doing, you can see that they attempt things like side control, and a few throws. the fights are kept standing up, but each one knows "fighting" as a package, in one way or another.




More like easy controlled sparring. Bit unrealistic.
If I can find the video I refer to again I will post it.

Jude




LOL are you serious, tell ya what Jude, as soon as you post some of your own sparring that lives up to or surpasses that caliber i'll be more receptive to your cirticisms, do you regularly spar harder than this? Who do you train with that you're doing full contact Goju sparring with?

I love how every time sparring is posted online people who could probably never perform at that level love to pick it apart.

The guys in the video have skills, it may not be the best sparring i've ever seen, but most people in most dojo don't even reach this level, so again i'm curious, what Karateka are you training with that are sparring "harder" than this? Are you doing Bogu kumite? With who?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/06/08 04:23 PM)

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#384177 - 03/06/08 04:15 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
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thoes are grudge matches between styles to get bragging rights as to who's better. if you can call that easy controlled sparring, we don't need to have this conversation.


Edited by student_of_life (03/06/08 04:16 PM)
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#384178 - 03/06/08 04:21 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


That is in an ideal world. But dont you think that sometimes it wouldnt always work that way and could get long and drawn out.? I need to know what most grapplers have. I also need to know how to get out of certain moves. The only way I can get to know is by studying grappling.





You only have so much time, do you plan on trying to master both? You will never outgrapple a good grappler unless you plan on becoming one. Learning simple escapes and such I consider a prt of Karate training.

Quote:

I havent studied all his works. The stuff that I have seems jujitsu orientated.





Well i'd be curious what you've seen, I have a couple books and it's all pretty standard (though very well presented and elucidated upon) standing grappling and a little bit of ground stuff.

It goes nowhere near as in depth as any Jujutsu in terms of grappling, Koryu or otherwise. If you think it's gonna help in a grappling engagement against a trained sport grappler you'd be mistaken, and he even points out in the book that that is not his intention with the information. I know you've made some vague allusions to grappling with Judoka or something but honestly....


Quote:


Some chinese methods and I would venture to say some Okinawan methods seem different than western ideas of fighting. But I can only comment on the stuff I have studied. Still to early to make a hard and fast opinion.






Er, ok.

Quote:


Well seen as I trained primaraly on strikes I had to come to terms with the fact there are some good grapplers out there. So had to change somethings or get left behind.

Still studying.

Jude




You're certainly not going to beat good grapplers at grappling, just curious, are you doing some kind of competitive MMA type sparring? you make alot of allusions to this kind of thing and i'm very curious as to the specifics, who exactly are you "testing your skills" against?

It's this kind of bogged down thinking that I don't understand.

Karate isn't meant to be an art used against trained sport grapplers, it's meant to address typical acts of violence that one may encounter and deal with them expediently, not give you some uber mix n match tactical game with which to match any opponent, the strength of Karate lies in it's simplicity.

As Ian Abernethy and others point out, the older skills are based on quickly ending acts of violence, not some game of counter for counter such as what you find in sport engagement matches.

One is not better or worse they are simply different ways of training with different intent. It is impossible to train for every technique or scenario one may encounter, and honestly alot of the "bunkai" that attempt to do this seem frankly ridiculous to me.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/06/08 04:42 PM)

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#384179 - 03/07/08 01:40 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



You only have so much time, do you plan on trying to master both? You will never outgrapple a good grappler unless you plan on becoming one. Learning simple escapes and such I consider a prt of Karate training.






Not sure if you read my posts some times. Some time back I started working with grapplers.


Quote:



Well i'd be curious what you've seen, I have a couple books and it's all pretty standard (though very well presented and elucidated upon) standing grappling and a little bit of ground stuff.





He goes a lot deeper than that.You might find the books refer to basic defence and what date is on the book?

Just been looking at a guy he got in for a seminar on tekki. Good stuff except everything goes from typical wrist grabs. Now how does a person get to the wrist grab stage ?

Could using Kakie (which is taken from Chinese Chi Sao) bring a person to this stage? Is this part of the chinese infleunce on karate?
Is there elements of kakie in kata? Shurin or other wise?
If so would all this add up to a fighting art?
Quote:



It goes nowhere near as in depth as any Jujutsu in terms of grappling, Koryu or otherwise. If you think it's gonna help in a grappling engagement against a trained sport grappler you'd be mistaken, and he even points out in the book that that is not his intention with the information. I know you've made some vague allusions to grappling with Judoka or something but honestly....




Zach, You tend to formalate an opinion based on assumptions.
I think kata has a wealth of techniques. I dont know them yet but meanwhile I will have to do grappling with grapplers.
I stated some time ago I started working with grapplers, etc etc etc.
And how do you realy know to what depth kata goes?
There are hundreds of katas. Have you realy studied every one?
Quote:



You're certainly not going to beat good grapplers at grappling,





Your getting your wires crossed here.
No I am not under the illusion that just learning kata, be it jujitsu or karate, will make me a good grappler.
I am under the illusion that to learn to grapple train with grapplers.
But thanks for the vote of confidence Zach,


Quote:



It's this kind of bogged down thinking that I don't understand.

Karate isn't meant to be an art used against trained sport grapplers, it's meant to address typical acts of violence that one may encounter and deal with them expediently, not give you some uber mix n match tactical game with which to match any opponent, the strength of Karate lies in it's simplicity.

As Ian Abernethy and others point out, the older skills are based on quickly ending acts of violence, not some game of counter for counter such as what you find in sport engagement matches.

One is not better or worse they are simply different ways of training with different intent. It is impossible to train for every technique or scenario one may encounter, and honestly alot of the "bunkai" that attempt to do this seem frankly ridiculous to me.






Zach it seems to me you are stuck with an idea and your getting left way, way behind.
I dont believe that for one minute karate is as basic as you say.
You might wish/ hope for that kind of encounter in a self defence scenario.

There again the more I study and read of history the guys like itosi didint know what a lot of applications were for in kata.

Now let me look at the top guys in this country who teach martial arts orientated self defence.

Geoff Thompson, 6 dan karate 1st dan judo. Countless engage ments in the pavement arena. Doorman, security all his life.

Works out with top judoka, jujitsu , grapplers of every description. Includes all postions of fighting on his seminars. Standing, kneeling, ground work?? Fighting full contact? Animal day?

Ian aberneathy, trains judo on a regualr basis with some top judo guys, seminars with some top grapplers and other martial artists. He is also a 5th dan in the same organisation as Geoff Thompson and Peter Constantine?
and would you believe they train to fight from all positions?

I could go on the list is endless.



But lets see now with history, ah wait a minute? Okinawans already had high grappling skills? Didnt they? That they combined with or even intergrated with the then mixed pot of arts that became chinese hand that the Japanese named karate? Did these fighting skills use groundwork? were they good grapplers?
Lets look at okinwanan sumo? Lets see if jujitsu had an infleunce?
Lets look at the reports I found on violance around 1904
reported from a school teacher? Seems if the report was correct a regular thing. Now during these encounters would they have had grappling skills? Who knows best guess more than likely

So basicaly from the jist of what your saying you know everything that is contained in kata? I dont so I have to take an external route eg learn grappling then see what comes out of kata study.
Grappling as well?

Jude

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#384180 - 03/07/08 02:05 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



LOL are you serious, tell ya what Jude, as soon as you post some of your own sparring that lives up to or surpasses that caliber i'll be more receptive to your cirticisms, do you regularly spar harder than this? Who do you train with that you're doing full contact Goju sparring with?

I love how every time sparring is posted online people who could probably never perform at that level love to pick it apart.

The guys in the video have skills, it may not be the best sparring i've ever seen, but most people in most dojo don't even reach this level,




Ah I understand now. You two think all you have to do is
defend your selves against people as per the sparring session you posted?

and that is karate?


Quote:


so again i'm curious, what Karateka are you training with that are sparring "harder" than this? Are you doing Bogu kumite? With who?




You say karate is for self defence and random acts of violance?

SOL
Quote:




thoes are grudge matches between styles to get bragging rights as to who's better. if you can call that easy controlled sparring, we don't need to have this conversation.







Ok vidoe of street fights.

You state your karate is for random violance and self defence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqOSayyRktU


Ok here is what you defend against?
They go to the ground?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JKFZOnlfjo&feature=related

Bare knuckle vale tudo about as close as a real fight its going to get with a ref present. Judo/ jutsu in there as well. Now lets go back to my assumption jujitsu has an inflence on the devolpment of karate as praticed on Okinawa ?

Could the fighters ended up the same as these guys?
Bear in mind they and people on okinawa train bare knuckle?
Original karate on okinawa? Lots of weight training and conditioning?
Looks like the guys on the vale tudo do the same.

So Imagine your attacked by one of these guys? You state your karate is for random violance and self defence?



Now If we can say lets go back to Okinawa and the report of the violance in 1904 from the school teacher about bareknuckle thugs. There were reports of the people losing their lifes to them.

So turn the clocks back to different people in the development of karate spending time and money travelling to learn more skills?For what purpose?

So if these reports were true then how high a level were they? Like the vale tudo fighters?

That would give a reason then why saw the need to increase skills.

Defending against such types would need quite a high level of self defence skills.

Why did different people in the development of karate make such long journeys and spend so much time furthering their arts?

Where is the motivation to do such things?

Are you two realy stating that original karate might not be able to defend you against such attacks.

Switch it to modern self defence instructors like Geoff Thompson? Does it follow a simular line?

I think history might prove you wrong if it can be believed

Still researching and studying.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/07/08 02:38 AM)

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#384181 - 03/07/08 03:36 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
one issue when looking back is that the use of weapons would have been more significant (for attack and defence).

also many of the examples, as interesting as they are are prearranged teenage scraps, whether in the street or indeed the arena.

random acts of violence on the street, tend to be less prolonged, not always but often quite short.

need to keep this in context.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384182 - 03/07/08 04:15 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

one issue when looking back is that the use of weapons would have been more significant (for attack and defence).





Swords were no longer allowed to be carried by the majority of the nobility. The people had to look for ways of protecting themselves from both armed bandits that didn't care that they were breaking the law and from the occupying forces that were often not too nice to their new subjects.




So if a law abiding person was carrying weapons and caught what were the penelties?
How ever if the limbs can be turned in to weapons ( thus the amount of limb conditioning that seems to have taken place) and an even higher amount of physical training might be required. Plus what happens when the weapon is lost?
Bet the ones who survived were good sprinters as well. Do the business defend themselves then go very quickly.


Quote:


also many of the examples, as interesting as they are are prearranged teenage scraps, whether in the street or indeed the arena.




I dont think all of them were Jim. Some
perhaps but even so to view the true fights the viewer needs to be registered with you tube or google video so I cant put them up. Plus there seems to be a market for video'd real fights.They aint showing for free , greedy people.
Quote:


random acts of violence on the street, tend to be less prolonged, not always but often quite short.

need to keep this in context.




Perhaps but they can also be full blown.
So if its self defence this needs to be take on to account.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/07/08 04:27 AM)

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#384183 - 03/07/08 07:14 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"I think history might prove you wrong if it can be believed" what am i trying to prove?
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