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#384134 - 03/04/08 03:37 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think it is most fair to say that naihanchi kata teaches principles and technique that can be used for ground fighting Marcel,

Many, including myself just had an issue with the way you put that idea to the forum, ie like it was the origonal Bunkai or something, I still see the standing bunkai as more significant.

I do agree that the kneeling postures, and the kusanku flat posture have ground fighting applications going on however, for sure.

and hey were all deluded................we do karotty after all
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384135 - 03/04/08 04:43 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Jim

Quote:

I think it is most fair to say that naihanchi kata teaches principles and technique that can be used for ground fighting Marcel,

Many, including myself just had an issue with the way you put that idea to the forum, ie like it was the origonal Bunkai or something, I still see the standing bunkai as more significant.




Unless one is laying on the ground then I suppose the
bunkia suggested would become important. When would a person cross their legs? In a fight? The result of fear aside?

Yes I know Ed posted silat forms done on the ground for self defence but even so?

And how can it be proven it wasnt the original bunkia?
I dont think it can be proven or dissproven.
Quote:



I do agree that the kneeling postures, and the kusanku flat posture have ground fighting applications going on however, for sure.





What do you think they are? Are there any deep down and dirty applications that sport Martial arts/ grappling arts any arts, miss?

I seem to use some that I think are.


Quote:


and hey were all deluded................we do karotty after all




The more I study and apply it to live resistant sparring the less deluded I become. I Wouldnt have got this knowledge if

(a)Stuff wasnt brought to my attention through discussion on the forum
(b) The guys I sparred with didint have grappling skills.
(c) I hadnt researched and then practiced.


Jude

So I tend to agree somewhat with Medulant, and some others of course.

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#384136 - 03/04/08 05:15 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
in relation to really proving anything, it can't be done to academic satisfaction outside of what is avalaible.

to support Naihanchi is not a ground fighting kata I use the following -

1. Motobu Sensei does not illistrate, or speak of 1 groundfighting application for Naihanchi in all his books, nor does any other Okinawna Sensei form the past.

2. I have never seen an Okinawan historical picture of a Master engaged in ground fighting, outside of taking someone down and locking/striking.

3. 5 of my significant Seniors, 4 of which visit Okinawa repeatedly and over the last 40 years do not 'see', were not taught, and dont beleive naihanchi is a ground fighting kata.

4. Tegumi is reasonably documented as the wrestling method of early Okinawan Karate, its a simple wrestling method that is not contained in kata, is mainly stand up but does have a simple groundfighting component.

Im sure I can think of more, now this dosen't de-value Marcels theory, as taught to him in any way, in fact I appauld application work of this nature.

Indeed one day if we meet I will specifically ask to be taught/shown his methods as im sure they are very good.

But IMO only I guess, groundfighting is not a significant component of Okinawan karate.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384137 - 03/04/08 05:55 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Interesting.

The problem I have is the more I study the more I sparr with people who have grappling skills they use in a live setting the more I see the need for being able to increase fighting skills in all scenarios, standing, kneeling, clinching, ground work.

Street fights go to the ground. I dont want to be there but the fact is they do. I posted an excerpt I found to from a school teacher who in 1904 reported about Okinawans being beaten badly by other Okinawans. Be they true or not I dont know.
But if they were and it was a fight then the fights as other fights might have been fought or partialy fought on the ground.


Yes I have read on the forum that wrestling was trained in okinawa as well as striking but there are to many questions left un answered.

Regards training in Okinawa? Do they realy teach everybody what they know?
Have they the modern day Okinawans moved away from the realities of fighting?
One of the top 10th dans stated we wont teach a person how
to fight. We will give a person the tools then we cant promise they will win or words to that effect

Pure specualtion but if karate evolved for a purpose, namely defence then I can not see how they missed out ground fighting.

I will look further.


Jude



Edited by jude33 (03/04/08 06:12 AM)

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#384138 - 03/04/08 06:11 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
just because I think the classical kata do not contain groundfighting, lets not forget tegumi does deliver stand up grappling/some ground work, flaky history and lack of transmittion for sure

so perhaps modern karate just forgot that bit? points sparring, and kata tournaments do that to an art.

I agree real fights do go to the ground, when you havent controlled the distance, havent struck well enough.

im just not ocnvinced that significant groundfighting experience is necessary for self defence. basic understanding yes = tegumi.

but then again I don't view Okinawan karate as the ultimate anything,

I know there are better methods to simply fight.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384139 - 03/04/08 06:21 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

just because I think the classical kata do not contain groundfighting, lets not forget tegumi does deliver stand up grappling/some ground work, flaky history and lack of transmittion for sure

so perhaps modern karate just forgot that bit? points sparring, and kata tournaments do that to an art.

I agree real fights do go to the ground, when you havent controlled the distance, havent struck well enough.

im just not ocnvinced that significant groundfighting experience is necessary for self defence. basic understanding yes = tegumi.

but then again I don't view Okinawan karate as the ultimate anything,

I know there are better methods to simply fight.




Ok.

Well I shall look further. I have just been watching the early uechi ryu videos where they are sparring. They have stopped and restarted the film just when it was going to throws and I guess poss ground work. In fact every time they go to the clinch they stop .

I think marketing plays a part in there communication of their arts on Okinawa.

Will delve a bit more in to history might be something there.

Still think Medulant has something here on ground work though.

Jude

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#384140 - 03/04/08 06:27 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
sure I agree, Marcel has LOTS of info and im sure very good karate.

but that doesnt mean karate has specific groundfighting historically, in the kata.

Again outside of the basic requirements and the tactic of staying on your feet.

I dont see that as a negative either.

Look hard and let us know what you uncover as none of this is final, things are being uncovered all the time.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384141 - 03/04/08 12:43 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Its not that I believe or don't believe much of my application is the "original" application. We will never know what that is. It is that the principles of movement in the kata (however I do believe that the principles I have been taught are very close) that lend itself very well to these practices. Kata application is not so much about learning a few specific applications, but more about learning how to make kata work for you. In fact, as I understand it application was previously taught first and kata second to reinforce those lessons. Then once an understanding of your instructors fighting techniques and the kata principles was well developed a karateka was free to work on what worked best for them. This was actually the way I was taught originally. My instructor used various two man drills which were different from the Matsubayashi Ryu Yakusoku kumite which he learned studying in Okinawa with Nagamine. These infact had many applications of kata which I had not learned at the time. Then when I would learn the kata it would make sense to me. My instructor did not present the material in the way in which I understand it now. He would simply teach us without a lot of talk. He taught and we did.

Utlimately I think of it like this. Does anyone here stop fighting when the fight hits the ground? If you have only ever learned to punch when standing up, do you not know how to apply the punch when on the ground? Well, the same goes with grappling techniques standing and on the ground. You would be surprised how underhooks, key locks, chokes, and arm bars work in similar ways when standing and on the ground. That is, if you are working principles and not just exact techniques.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#384142 - 03/04/08 12:54 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Marcel,

as you know I absolutly agree with that.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384143 - 03/04/08 02:42 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
wow, what a brain fart. i know the bunkai your talking about, i thought of kesa gatame when you said hold downs.

while im sure you have loads in reasons to back up your opnion on ground fighting techniques, i think im on shoshinkan's boat. you gotta learn it, but tekki isn't where its at, IMO.
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