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#384144 - 03/04/08 03:09 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Student, but isn't it really about what you can make work? I know many people who say that karate striking methods are not effective. Well, if you just practice kata on air your striking will probably not be effective unless you are physically gifted and had striking ability before you started karate. To really gain striking skill all manner of drills with a partner and pads must be done in addition to resistance based training. In addition the technique may or may not look exactly like it does in kata. As with any technique there are adjustments that must be made depending on the situation. Why should grappling be any different? The basic "shell or form" of the technique is there along with the principles. But to develop skill you must get out there on the mat and train the technique using partner drills and resistive training.

Haven't you ever heard the saying, "How do you know you don't like it until you've tried it?"

P.S. I need English words for grappling techniques. My training is in wrestling and wrestling/submission grappling for fighting. I don't understand the Japanese Judo terms.
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#384145 - 03/04/08 04:16 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Meh the groundfighting thing again, I personally think it's a stretch for the naihanchi kata series, and yeah I know the kata, and have practiced them for a while. I've also been shown some bunkai from among others a Okinawan Kempo practitioner, and it was quite effective without groundfighting.


I think the reason that it is important to gauge whether and how much importance there is in relation to groundfighting in Karate is simply so that we don't waste much time doing something our own art is sub-par at.

If I wanna really learn newaza I go to see my teacher early and get in a little Judo training, not saying it isn't there in Karate but honestly in terms of newaza you aren't gonna do much better than Judo or BJJ.

So, much as I wouldn't go to Judo to learn atemi waza, i'm not gonna look to my Karate kata for anything but the simplest groundfighting concepts.

Med, it sounds like your grappling experience has informed your view of Naihanchi kata and not the other way around, is that accurate?

My teacher likes to say the philosophy of Karate is basically "him down now", meaning that the strategy of Karate makes tactics like ground grapplin less desirable than ending the fight another way.

I agree with this assessment and I feel that prolonged, commited, ground grappling encounters are for the most part something that is simply outside the scope of Karate traditionally.

This doesn't mean it cannot be taught, but I don't see the traditional Kata of any Ryu i'm aware of teaching alot of newaza.

I seem to remember reading that the rules for alot of the old Bogu Kumite sparring engagements were that if there was no submission etc. after 30 secs on the ground the combatants got back up on their feet and reset to standing fighting.

There's always the temptation to make Karate be all things to all people but my view is that proportionally focus should be on it's real strengths.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/04/08 04:33 PM)

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#384146 - 03/04/08 10:16 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i get your point, but...

im just not sold on there being much ground fighitng in kata, sure there are a few applications who's principals can be expanded on, but that dosen't mean your gonna get BJJ level black belts outta tekki (devils advocate, not literal)

there are techniques that i consider vital to a ground game that i haven't seen in kata. which is why i can't bring myself to make thoes claims. if kata wanted to teach grond fighting, then why not make a "half guard kata", or a "leg lock kata".

karate was one system that went for one goal, the okinawians had others for other purposes. they had te and tegumi like the west had boxing, savate, and sword. the sword was part of boxing matches way back when, i would not go to a gym to learn it these days.

but whats in a name? if your karate has it all then thats sweet. when i want to grappel i go to judo, most times i'm thinking of it all but only allowed to do one or the other becase im in someone elses class. my dream karate seems to be dang close to what you've got going on, when i get a chance to teach i usally tend to blend it all together too.

*EDIT* it is also worth mentioning that some kata are short incomprehensive generlizations of one mans entire system. chinto, kusanku, gankaku are all overviews of the way one man fought. to draw from chinease traditions, which many/all okinawian styles did, they have hundreds of training sets for hundreds of purposes.

and sorry for using the japanese term, kesa gatame means "scraf hold"


Edited by student_of_life (03/04/08 10:21 PM)
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#384147 - 03/05/08 12:12 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually when I want to grapple I do so without the kimonos with wrestlers and submission grapplers or no gi bjj guys. In addition when I want to get strong I lift weights. When I want to improve my fighting skill I spar or do restistive two man drills. When I want to train accuracy and speed I use focus mitts. When I want to improve power I use kick shields, heavy bags, or thai pads. Oh, wait a second, then why and when do I do kata? I train principles in kata, natural reactions, perfect technique, balanced body conditioning/training, relaxation, and a host of other things. I personally don't really desire black belt in BJJ. And for fighting it is really not needed. In fact, the okinawans knew this. That's why they trained in grappling. Just enough to hang with a grappler and last long enough to not get beat by grappling and utilize the striking of karate. And these are the principles of fighting preserved in kata. Its like Ripleys. Believe it or not. I personally like it when people don't. Can you guess why?
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#384148 - 03/05/08 12:21 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med, it sounds like your grappling experience has informed your view of Naihanchi kata and not the other way around, is that accurate?




Zach, I'm not sure what style of karate you practice, but application preceeded kata. And that is the way I have always been taught. My first teacher taught application in two man drills before I/we learned the kata that it came from. Now he didn't identify it as application of x kata. He simply taught the fighting/grappling techniques of Nagamine. So it is fighting experience and knowledge of fighting principles which should shape one's kata, right? If not, please explain how kata shapes one's view on fighting rather than the other way around. Especially since kata are based on fighting principles and not the other way around. That should be very interesting.

Maybe your karate has no joint locking or chokes. Maybe if it does once you hit the ground in a struggle you let go of the hold and tell hour opponent that you are switching to judo because your karate doesn't have answers for that situation. I don't know, but that is not the way I was taught.
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#384149 - 03/05/08 01:33 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I guess the question is also "What is cross training?" Is it training in any "sport or activity" to improve in another? So if you run for conditioning or lift weights are your cross training or is that simply a part of karate training? If you use modern boxing focus mitts or muay thai pads to train are you cross training with boxing? I think these are terms we must define and questions we must answer.
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#384150 - 03/05/08 07:25 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

i get your point, but...

im just not sold on there being much ground fighitng in kata, sure there are a few applications who's principals can be expanded on, but that dosen't mean your gonna get BJJ level black belts outta tekki (devils advocate, not literal)





I tend to agree, BJJ black belt wouldnt come from the study of just tekki.

Tekki/Naihanchi was the first kata taugth before the pinans came along. As I see it other katas might build on it.

Why train to move sideways by crossing the legs? I dont go with this balance/ agility stuff.
When would the legs be crossed in a fight other than to clamp on something? Why teach some one tekki in that manner?



Quote:


there are techniques that i consider vital to a ground game that i haven't seen in kata. which is why i can't bring myself to make thoes claims. if kata wanted to teach grond fighting, then why not make a "half guard kata", or a "leg lock kata".





Who knows what kata study can uncover? I am sense-ing a possable throw in the kata along with ground work.
Being it is self defence it might be the kind of throw where as it would cause maximum damage.

Medulant did you come across a standing throw?


Quote:


karate was one system that went for one goal, the okinawians had others for other purposes. they had te and tegumi




Perhaps they combined them?
Quote:


but whats in a name? if your karate has it all then thats sweet. when i want to grappel i go to judo, most times i'm thinking of it all but only allowed to do one or the other becase im in someone elses class. my dream karate seems to be dang close to what you've got going on, when i get a chance to teach i usally tend to blend it all together too.

*EDIT* it is also worth mentioning that some kata are short incomprehensive generlizations of one mans entire system. chinto, kusanku, gankaku are all overviews of the way one man fought. to draw from chinease traditions, which many/all okinawian styles did, they have hundreds of training sets for hundreds of purposes.






Perhaps in their original form they might have been.
But I think they overlap.

I can see the point of a person going to a specific art or teacher that/ who has specific skills. I realy admire guys who advance an art such as grappling, but having said that I think the older systems have a lot to offer, thus the kata study.

Quote:



Maybe your karate has no joint locking or chokes. Maybe if it does once you hit the ground in a struggle you let go of the hold and tell hour opponent that you are switching to judo because your karate doesn't have answers for that situation. I don't know, but that is not the way I was taught.




Modern judo wouldnt have the answers for me when attacked.
Im not knocking judo.

First instinct when I hit the ground if attacked or even when sparring is to try to get back up.

If I cant for some reason and depending where I am;
The ;
Gaurd my face/ head.

And/or pound the attackers face, neck

Or get my forearm in to the front of the neck and pound

with the other hand/ arm/ elbow.

And /or choke

It wont just try and get a leg lock ( If im at that end I stomp or kick) or I wont a%%% about rolling and going straight to a pin and sitting/ lying there with out choking or trying to damage something on the guy which would mean a struggle. For me being on the deck is the last resort.

Plus it can be cold, wet and can have strange objects lying about or this sudden projectile appears not from the attacker while in the prone position on a pavement/ side walk if attacked. Have to consider the long term health effects of being cold and wet as well.

Jude







Edited by jude33 (03/05/08 07:56 AM)

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#384151 - 03/05/08 10:01 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
cause you love tooting that horn? lol. that all sounds good man, im limited by whats around me however.
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#384152 - 03/05/08 10:12 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
the cross stepping in tekki can be used for all kinds of low kicks/stamps, sweeps, and trips. if you want to take it to the ground cause the legs are crossed go for it.
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#384153 - 03/05/08 10:39 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: student_of_life]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

i get your point, but...

im just not sold on there being much ground fighitng in kata, sure there are a few applications who's principals can be expanded on, but that dosen't mean your gonna get BJJ level black belts outta tekki (devils advocate, not literal)

there are techniques that i consider vital to a ground game that i haven't seen in kata. which is why i can't bring myself to make thoes claims. if kata wanted to teach grond fighting, then why not make a "half guard kata", or a "leg lock kata".

karate was one system that went for one goal, the okinawians had others for other purposes. they had te and tegumi like the west had boxing, savate, and sword. the sword was part of boxing matches way back when, i would not go to a gym to learn it these days.

but whats in a name? if your karate has it all then thats sweet. when i want to grappel i go to judo, most times i'm thinking of it all but only allowed to do one or the other becase im in someone elses class. my dream karate seems to be dang close to what you've got going on, when i get a chance to teach i usally tend to blend it all together too.

*EDIT* it is also worth mentioning that some kata are short incomprehensive generlizations of one mans entire system. chinto, kusanku, gankaku are all overviews of the way one man fought. to draw from chinease traditions, which many/all okinawian styles did, they have hundreds of training sets for hundreds of purposes.

and sorry for using the japanese term, kesa gatame means "scraf hold"




I don't think I've ever seen any groundifghting in kata.

Not that it would matter, you can't learn to ground fight from a kata, I don't think?
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