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#384124 - 03/02/08 08:06 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Usenthemighty]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i work striking on a base from karate, and judo fills in some gaps that makes me think the two should be tought as one "fighting art".
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#384125 - 03/02/08 03:11 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

i work striking on a base from karate, and judo fills in some gaps that makes me think the two should be tought as one "fighting art".




Yeah Student, it would be great if in addition to the striking the art of karate contained throws, takedowns, pins/holddowns, and joint locking technqiues. Now that would really be an effective art. Hey, wait a minute.......
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#384126 - 03/03/08 11:39 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: medulanet]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Thanks for so many responses. It looks like no one karate practitioner practices the same way. Pretty interesting.
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#384127 - 03/03/08 06:26 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: janxspirit]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Thanks for so many responses. It looks like no one karate practitioner practices the same way. Pretty interesting.




With so many different types of karate it's a wonder, huh.
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#384128 - 03/03/08 09:26 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: janxspirit]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
My suggestion would be "train with the best teachers you can find"... regardless of their art. I'd rather learn something definite than something that's "maybe so". It's all fighting arts, so whether you're standing, grappling, or throwing and pinning, it's still "fighting arts".

I've done karate 45 years, along with Judo for 35, jujutsu for about 40 years, and aikido for about 24 years... so I'm about as "cross trained" as you can get. I've used the "best teachers" theory all my training life, and for years travelled to seminars and camps and slept on the dojo floors to train. It isn't "what" you train in as much as who you train with and what they know.

Get acquainted with the excellent teachers, and make friends of them... they will show you things you'll never learn "in class"... and they will put you in touch with a higher class of instruction within their circle of friends.
While the dojos of today sometimes have "excellent" instruction, the real masters are few and far between... seek them out and go train with them. It all depends on how badly you want to know fighting arts "for real"... if they're just for exercise, buy a gym membership and a treadmill.

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#384129 - 03/03/08 10:27 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
oh yeah, i get what your saying, but my karate instructor has no training in other arts, so i'm forced to make these connections all by my loansome. it's choped into different pieces for me to go put together. "karate" here, judo there, and i get some friends and we put it all through the BS test to see what fits best.

it's all "te" to me, as long as it can make a grown man cry.

EDIT: hold downs/pins in karate? is that what your saying? please go a bit further if you are.


Edited by student_of_life (03/03/08 10:29 PM)
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#384130 - 03/03/08 11:43 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: student_of_life]
brocksampson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Savannah, GA
Don't let terms like "karate" limit your learning. We tend to put arts into separate little boxes. Judo = throwing, karate= punch/kick, and so on. That's really just the surface. When you zoom out a little for a wider view, all the arts overlap and blend together under the category of fighting.

The problem you are running into is common because no single instructor will know it all! (I am going to assume that you have already had this discussion with your current instructor.) Studying as you are with a research and development approach is actually very useful but having someone to give you direction will increase the speed and productivity of this training. In other words, finding a technique accidentally and refining it is much harder than having someone show you the finer points. I would recommend talking to some qualified instructors as suggested above, then focus on one discipline at a time. The good stuff comes with dedication and good instruction. Bouncing around will just make it harder to connect the dots later on. A good base is essential to building the curriculum you want. Just put in the time and ask the questions!

Eventually, you may start to see some common "rules" emerge between the arts. For example, this movement in my karate kata looks A LOT like this technique in Judo/aikido/jujitsu. That's when the R&D comes in handy.

And to answer your other question, it would be difficult to explain or even pick out a lock or hold as an example if you don't already have an understanding. Not to put you down, just saying it's hard to explain from scratch on here.


On second thought, this will give you something to think about. http://youtube.com/watch?v=txP8vWt3xQE He shows some locks, etc. Again, without the basics it can be tough to make it all work but you get an idea.


Edited by brocksampson (03/03/08 11:51 PM)

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#384131 - 03/04/08 01:35 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

oh yeah, i get what your saying, but my karate instructor has no training in other arts, so i'm forced to make these connections all by my loansome. it's choped into different pieces for me to go put together. "karate" here, judo there, and i get some friends and we put it all through the BS test to see what fits best.

it's all "te" to me, as long as it can make a grown man cry.

EDIT: hold downs/pins in karate? is that what your saying? please go a bit further if you are.




Yes Student, hold downs and pins. I have heard karate described as both a self preservation and life preservation art. In self preservation you may not need these techniques, however, in life preservation you may. For example holding down an attacker who you were unable to render unconscious with strikes so that people you are protecting can escape. Now, understand that you are not holding them to just hold them, but to continue your attack. Just look at Naihanchi. I will not elaborate here because certain members won't like me making these assertions and will swear I am delusional for making such connections in MY karate. If you want to know more PM me.
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#384132 - 03/04/08 01:39 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: brocksampson]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:





On second thought, this will give you something to think about. http://youtube.com/watch?v=txP8vWt3xQE He shows some locks, etc. Again, without the basics it can be tough to make it all work but you get an idea.




My thoughts and limited experience and experiments against
restisting opponents.

Why Oh Why do they always and still show techniques against
a slowed down version and what I think is a mis- use of that punch? If that punch was brought up to speed and the correct application and being used for real those techniques wouldnt work against it.

Why doesnt someone put up a video and have someone throwing swings and punches for real and resisting against the guy?



Some of those techniques can be made to work against a restisting opponent depending on their fighting ability.
But not the way he is showing. To me he isnt using his lower body strength enough to assist the throw, People dont always stick their chin in the air and allow people to strike their necks, fall over with pressure on their elbows. They have to be pulled/ assisted to going off balance and the elbows hammered ( avoided in experiments) And people dont just stand there leaving everthing open, unless their idiots.


Medulant
Quote:


Yes Student, hold downs and pins. I have heard karate described as both a self preservation and life preservation art. In self preservation you may not need these techniques, however, in life preservation you may. For example holding down an attacker who you were unable to render unconscious with strikes so that people you are protecting can escape. Now, understand that you are not holding them to just hold them, but to continue your attack. Just look at Naihanchi. I will not elaborate here because certain members won't like me making these assertions and will swear I am delusional for making such connections in MY karate. If you want to know more PM me.





Medulant feel free to elaborate if certain members won't like you making these assertions and will swear you are delusional for making such connections in your karate. It
will be because they havent studied hard enough or tried to apply such things against restisting opponents.

I have on a number of occasions and your correct. There are hold downs and pins in karate.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (03/04/08 02:15 AM)

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#384133 - 03/04/08 02:28 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay, I don't have too much time, but I will say a little bit about it. The hold downs/keep downs/pins in karate I have found from the top position are mainly from the side. For example, side mount and the knee ride. Really most kneeling techniques in kata can be used for this in addition to the cheating fighting posture in kusanku. Now, the side mount is mainly found in naihnachi. However, this is to be expected, since these are about as grappling intensive as karate can get. The hold downs usually come along with the stacked hand posture on the ground. I wonder why they are usually followed by a hammer fist, hmmm. Now, a little bit more advanced is using the same posture if someone has taken you down and has mounted you or you are in an open guard. You can use this to hold them to prevent them from striking you and gain a better position so that you can get back to your feet as quickly as possible. Hmmm, I wonder why there is all that leg crossing after the hook/square punches in Naihanchi with the hands in the stacked hand position. Now that is an interesting question isn't it?
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