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#383576 - 02/25/08 12:03 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that was my point. it cost $20usd for a 4oz bottle with Chinese letters and a dragon on it, and one third that cost for a 4oz tube that actually lists it's ingredients in English. I bet if I switched the contents of the two, you'd still say the one with the dragon works better...so I have no need to start an argument with you.


by the way, pharmacedical comes from a greek word meaning 'magic substance'.


Quote:

Of course, if you rather pay the big multinational drug companies big money for overpriced synthetic versions of natural remedies that have been around for thousands of years



herbal medicine isn't a big multinational drug industry? The figures in the US alone are in the billions anually, since the 'new age' campaign duping people into thinking things are natural just because they have a tree instead of a company logo on the bottle.

it's quite provable that active ingredients in 'natural' herbal medicine are much more expensive than common products with the same or equivalent active ingredients. so why suggest going to Chinatown to buy a 3x more expensive product for the same stuff?


some light reading:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/science/article3418051.ece

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#383577 - 02/25/08 12:58 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Most jows will have a list of ingredients labelled on the bottle with both the scientific Latin name and English equivalent. But I bet that even if the ingredients were listed on the bottle with the dragon, you'd still have a problem with it.

Most pharmaceuticals (spellcheck, my friend, spellcheck) that are imported into your country would have to pass stringent FDA approvals, including having a list of identifiable ingredients. The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) here has the same function, and all consumer pharmaceutical products go thru equally stringent approvals processes.

Funny though, how some big drug companies can seem to "fastrack" clinical trials and FDA approvals before their products are found defective and with serious side-effects....

BTW, I love how you ALWAYS twist things to suit your argument... sure pharmakos means "magic substance" - and if you bothered to go beyond Wikipedia, you'd note, that means, a (usu. plant/animal/mineral) substance used as a poison, antidote, or hallucinogen (i.e. drug!) - hence "magick substance". Most "medicinal" substances are (surprise, surprise!) toxins, poisons and hallucinogens.

If Greek civilization be the bedrock on which Western civilization is founded, then you'd be happy to note that "Western" civilization has a long history of the use of such magical substances for various ritual, religious and healing purposes, dating back to the Babylonians, ancient Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Grecians, Persians and the rest of the Islamic world, to Medieval Europe, through trade and conquest.

Perhaps you should delve further into the origins of clinical pharmacology (from Greek - the science of drugs and medicines) starting with Avicenna's The Canon of Medicine from the Middle Ages and constrast that with both Eastern and Western herbalism and how animal, plant and mineral extracts have been used as "medicinals" for the last few millenia.

Or perhaps you have vested stock options in a certain drug company and their little "magic" blue pill?

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#383578 - 02/25/08 01:32 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol...good one.

your info about 'magic substances' was my same meaning. drugs used to be thought of as magic in cultures around the world. no surprize there.

and yes, even most TCM concoctions have to pass thru a local government's approvals process, being deemed to cause no harm, is not the same as saying they work much better or worse than off-the-shelf common products.
despite people's image of 'folk medicine' being stired over a fire and crafted by a little master of ancient herbology in his staw hut on a mountainside, those concoctions are actually being mass-produced in a Chinese factory in much the same way as a billion-dollar American or European pharmaceutical does (except China doesn't have all those pesky human rights and labor laws). Then, since it's 'exotic', 'new age' and 'all-natural' the mark-up is several times more than a tube of 'atomic balm', 'icy heat' or other similar brands at a common store.

it's similar to the 'organic food' hoopla.


btw, it's getting a bit old to say TCM is thousands of years old. it's not. TCM in the form we see it today was developed in the 1950's. Much of classical Chinese medicine (CCM) would never make it thru the approvals processes you referred to.

out of all the practices CCM did have (CCM has been outlawed, along with bloodletting), the one that made it thru are the 'feel good' and 'does no harm' stuff. if TCM can only equal western med. within the realm of topical mild pain management, but at several times the cost, then I fail to see where the argument is.


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#383579 - 02/25/08 01:42 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Did I mention TCM? You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about those dumb ol Asians and anything that came out from that part of the world don't you?

Perhaps you should look up "therapeutic index".... and perhaps... just maybe a lot of "modern western" medicines might not pass FDA approval without the huge kickbacks... who cares if a side-effect of such "modern western" medicine is suicidal tendencies, mental abberations, psychotic episodes and death... right?

But of course it's OK for the big multinational (read US) drug companies to make money right... God forbid anyone else (particularly China) trying to do the same...

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#383580 - 02/25/08 02:10 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well, ok, if you want to argue on that level, then we should bring back the traveling elixir salesmen of the old west. "longevity in a single bottle" ...cool, gimme a case of that stuff, I wanna live 12 lifetimes.

I know what you are saying, and believe me, I'm not for the ugly and evil that goes on when businesses turn big. so do you buy from the big TCM industry from the East that can't and don't prove why or how their stuff works...or do you buy western products that your doctor knows exactly what it is and can determine with reasonable certainty it's interactions with some other thing/treatments you may be undergoing? most of the time anyway, but since new drugs come out all the time, there is a definite element of being the guinea pig when they diagnose and push the new ones.

but they definitely aren't going to know what the interactions of your western treatment for diabeties and a rhino horn pill from a Chinese head shop to align your energy will be, for example. If you are being treated by western medicine for something, it's silly and dangerous to take TCM drugs without your Doc knowing what it is beforehand.



and your comment earlier, yes excessive use of any active ingredient can be fatal. here it is: http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Spor...1414111711.html


here are some TCM ointments that use the same active ingredient that the 17 year old OD'd on:

Eagle Brand Medicated Oil
Tiger Balm. White or Red
Woodlock Medicated Balm
http://www.earlyspring.com.au/other_products.htm

so it could have just as easily been an overdose of Tiger balm.

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#383581 - 02/25/08 02:41 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
FYI, the "TCM" industry you refer to, are actually US companies riding the "new-age" herbalism boom... so are you saying Viagra is better/more effective than horny goat weed???

I bet they weren't the same % strength though.... so what does that prove?

You can OD on virtually anything... so what does that prove?


Edited by eyrie (02/25/08 03:03 AM)

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#383582 - 02/25/08 07:39 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Eagle Brand Medicated Oil. Tiger Balm, and Woodlock Medicated Balm - all are manufactured in Asia, not the US. They are marketed in with 'TCM' products. The websites I gave which are selling them appear to be Australian, not US.

are you saying there is a distinction between real TCM and fake TCM? Dit ta jow being the real TCM but tiger balm is fake TCM. got it. good thing there aren't 'real' and 'fake' hospitals when we are rushed to the emergency room, eh?

There is no set recipie for "Dit ta jow" that I could find. virtually anything from vaseline+chile peppers to Alcohol+wintergreen oil+st johns wort+club moss.

So, manufactured ointment with consistant recipie is fake TCM and adhoc family recipies that are inconsistant from chinatown to chinatown is the real TCM. got it. that way, if someone goes to their chinatown and are unhappy with results, you can just say it might not have been a real shop. Since things aren't nailed down, the belief can survive by ignoring the misses and holding on to the hits.

have fun buying kitchen brewed mystery oil. The Chinese guy selling it will probaly even apply it for you, Mr. Miyagi-style to increase your believability. Then again, just the sight and smell of a real Chinese TCM head-trip shop will kick off the belief switches. by the end of the visit, you'll be convinced that eating dryed deer penis for your headaches is much better than asperin.

plus the trouble it took to even get there, find a parking space and locate the shop will have to guarentee it's success. Thats why I first said, a trip to Chinatown is a fun adventurous substitute for just going to any corner store and getting a tube of IcyHeat for 1/3 the cost.

If anybody has not visited a Chinese herbalist/TCM shop in Chinatown, it really is fun. and remember, if you aren't willing to try deer penis, then your chi is all blocked up.


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#383583 - 02/25/08 07:56 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Just to add to the derail...there are pros and cons to supporting alternative medicines...one should realize that the little jar of 'dit ta jow' might be the most innocuous 'medicine' sold in some 'mom and pop' homeopathic storefronts. For example...bear parts...supplied by poachers right here in the USA.

Intelligent and ethical choices of where to spend one's money aren't always that clear.

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#383584 - 02/25/08 10:59 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Feeling a little guilty about contributing to the last derail. But...back on topic.

'Unintentional contact'. Seems like the hospital had a difficult time classifying it...probably for insurance purposes. I mean...if it was intentional...they might have to report it. But in the dojo, seems like there might be different types of 'unintentional contact'? Injuries being one category, personal space being another.

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#383585 - 02/25/08 11:50 AM Re: Unintentional contact with another person [Re: harlan]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny that they didn't have a "sports injury" category.

The reaction from my college students (computer programming) was pretty funny too.

Them: "What happened to your wrist?"

Me: "I had a difference of opinion with this long legged wench from South Burlington"

Them: Horrified stares!

When I finally explained what had happened, One of my students goes. "You know all those movies with unruly students...well I was afraid this was the reverse and that we had an unruly teacher"

Another student pipes in "I'm sorry ma'am, my homework is five minutes late! please don't hit me!"

As for the wrist, it is doing much better. I'm now out of the splint, although certain motions are still a tad bit uncomfortable.

Laura

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