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#383295 - 03/12/08 12:15 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: von1]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Step back/side to make distance.
Use space to engage with verbal conflict resolution.
Keep said distance until opponent lunges/rushes to close.
Intercept with a powerful straight line kick and follow with hands, or...
Evade the lunge/rush and place fast accurate and powerful kick to a weak spot before the assailant recovers balance and realigns. Follow with hand techniques.

If space is an issue the same options apply, just with tighter evasion smaller techniques and greater use of knees. Creating space is always the safer option and knowing how to deflect and push an adversary away is preferable to fighting in close when self defense is the aim.


Edited by Shonuff (03/12/08 12:23 PM)
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#383296 - 03/12/08 06:56 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Shonuff]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
An interesting thought, but has anyone ever considered using the back kick?

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#383297 - 03/12/08 08:41 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EvenRats]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

An interesting thought, but has anyone ever considered using the back kick?




Yes they have been considered and used, but any SD instructor worth their salt will teach you to NEVER turn your back on your opponent.The same goes for head kicks(unless they are bent over and their head is as high as say your belt line). It is always best to be facing your attacker and use what ever is possible to create a barrier (if it is multiple attackers then it is best to render one ineffective and keep them between you and the secondary assailant, if it is a single attacker than putting some kind of inanimate object between you is wise).

VDJ

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#383298 - 03/12/08 09:39 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: VDJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Well said!
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#383299 - 03/13/08 08:01 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I second that.
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#383300 - 08/06/08 07:29 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: VDJ]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Quote:

An interesting thought, but has anyone ever considered using the back kick?




Yes they have been considered and used, but any SD instructor worth their salt will teach you to NEVER turn your back on your opponent.The same goes for head kicks(unless they are bent over and their head is as high as say your belt line). It is always best to be facing your attacker and use what ever is possible to create a barrier (if it is multiple attackers then it is best to render one ineffective and keep them between you and the secondary assailant, if it is a single attacker than putting some kind of inanimate object between you is wise).

VDJ




Sorry to dredge up ancient material, but I was researching and noticed this.

The advice above is sound, but basic. When fighting in self defense one should generally aim to keep things simple, not least because they don't really need to be particularly advanced.

However I can't help but feel like what is the point in dedicating yourself to years of MA training if the first 6 months is all that is applicable. Well those who follow my views (the sound of wind and tumble weed follows) will know that I don't believe in that.
If you have the skill and a little bit of self belief a spinning back kick is one of the most effective self defense weapons in any kickers arsenal. It is the ultimate counter kick and to me embodies taekwondo. As your opponent attacks you lean away and before he knows what is going on you plant your heel in his stomach.

Yes it is a risk, but fighting is risk. If you cannot ever use what you learn then why learn it?

My honest feeling is that if a TKDist cannot use their techniques, such as a spinning back kick, which is a basic movement of TKD, in self defense then they should give back their black belt and not seek another one until that situation is rectified, either by finding another teacher or by taking control of their own training.
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#383301 - 08/06/08 02:18 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Shonuff]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

If you're looking for the simple answer that can be applied in a variety of scenarios (accept for possibly life threatening), then I would have to say a "Stun & Strike". A quick low snap kick to the shin or a hard slap to the face for the stun with a nice hard palm heel strike to the nose, which at minimal will tear up the eyes and at worse break the nose causing enough pain and disorientation to make a get away. But again, depending on the situation. It really is hard to say !

VDJ




I agree with this 100%. A few basic techniques. I use the Acrynom Escape To Get Safe: Eyes, Throat, Groin, and Shins.

I also agree that a good palm slap against the assailants ear will give u time to escape, as his ear will be ringing and his equilibrium will be thrown off.

Quote:


Quote:
As others said, avoid if you can. If not, I would apply whatever of the 3,200+ fundamental movements that I have learned to the situation at hand. Protect, ounter hard & try to establish the upper hand as best you can.



Your 3200 figure brings to mind a question. Do you think it's necessarily better to have so many options to draw from when your in a high pressure situation like SD? The reason why I ask is that I've seen hapkido instructors who also claims to teach "thousands" of techniques useful for SD. Many of these techniques are probably useful, but I am forced to wonder how many them you'll really need.

In most combative sports, even in disciplines that have a wide variety of techniques, you'll usually see a handful of basics that are used over an over again. Most MMA matches display a couple of takedowns and 3-4 main submissions (armbar, triangle choke, guillotine, RNC). Olympic TKD fighter rely mostly on single/double roundhouses, counter roundhouse, cut kick, and back kick. Boxers have jab, cross, hook, and uppercut. Now I know SD and combative sports are apples and oranges, but I think principle of being proficient in a few basic moves applies to SD as well.

What do you think?




Again I agree here. That is the problem with many martial arts, and the very reason why so many Real Based Martial Arts schools and seminars have become to popular and profitable. Traditional martial arts, in the actual sense that we learn it. Is seen as a life time of study or an art. Meaning that for any given attack, there is an infinite amount of responses to choose from within ones own arsenal of techniques. While this may be true in theory, actuality, when we are attack there is so much more than technique to consider, we are put into a stressful situation with limited time to process the information. there just isn't enough time to go through our entire portfolio of techniques to pick from. Which is why it is best to know and drill a few techniques which can be a response for multiple situation. This is where the RBSD shine. They have narrowed down their arsenal, and as difficult for many 'traditionalist" to accept. There simply are techniques that work better than others. There is such a thing as a superior technique. One that works 98% of the time compared to one that works 50%+ of the time.

Furthermore many of the training techniques are outdated, simply put MAist have refused to change with the time, and do not practice in a way to make their moves functional. This training I speak of is "aliveness". The definition can be seen on my realism and TKD thread. Traditionally earning your black belt in TKD means you have a mastery of the basics. All this means is you know how to apply the technique correctly. If I were to give you my hand, you could put me in an arm lock. This does not however mean you can functionalize the technique in a situation where I am really trying to resist you, not only that I am also trying to counter your attack with one of my own.

According to many books, it is during the back belt training in TKD when the concepts become functional, but from my experiences this simply isn't true. And is one of the very reasons why I refused to get a 2nd, and 3rd. degree black belt after I have already met the requirements.

Quote:

However I can't help but feel like what is the point in dedicating yourself to years of MA training if the first 6 months is all that is applicable. Well those who follow my views (the sound of wind and tumble weed follows) will know that I don't believe in that.
If you have the skill and a little bit of self belief a spinning back kick is one of the most effective self defense weapons in any kickers arsenal. It is the ultimate counter kick and to me embodies taekwondo. As your opponent attacks you lean away and before he knows what is going on you plant your heel in his stomach.

Yes it is a risk, but fighting is risk. If you cannot ever use what you learn then why learn it?

My honest feeling is that if a TKDist cannot use their techniques, such as a spinning back kick, which is a basic movement of TKD, in self defense then they should give back their black belt and not seek another one until that situation is rectified, either by finding another teacher or by taking control of their own training.




Few things, first the spinning back kick is not really a basic kick. I mean to most WTF TKD it maybe, but to most MA's it is not. Furthermore, its not the easiest of kicks to master, and it surely cant be done in 6 months. not to make it functional anyways. not with all the other basics you have to learn.

Timing, distancing, footwork, not to mention the ability to read your opponent so that you can actually apply the kick to the proper attack. Cuz if u do it wrong your screwed. This only comes over time, and experience. Considering only the few attributes I named up top, footwork itself is an art form.

Once again I have to mention, that the first 6 months of basic training are not usually spent learning the techniques in a method conducive to making them functional; its only good for learning the mechanics of the techniques.

But as you stated why learn all this stuff if its not useful, and while i agree with you that the back kick is an awesome kick in TKD, it does have its proper place in a fight. If used out of context it can be nullified putting you at an disadvantage. So lets not be so gung ho about it. Like me, I'm sure you would back kick to the groin to enhance the kicks effectiveness.

Also in self defense, it usually involves some sort of grabbing or escaping techniques. All of which as I stated earlier can be addressed with a few basic yet effectives strikes.

Eyes, throat, groin, and shins. Escape To Get Safe can be applied from any angle of attack. And most importantly isn't difficult to drill and so can be memorized by even the most layman person. This helps for those little stressful life or death situation.
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#383302 - 08/06/08 05:56 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The thing that I think takes a longer time to learn is tactics and how to apply things in all kinds of situations.
Its been said lots of times as an example though its a good one....a boxer learns just a few punches,the same ones from novice to world champion.Experience in all kinds of situations and little tips and tactics have to be learned on the job...in sparring and in drills and in fights.Thats what seperates and takes time

Knowing lots of techniques means nothing if you have not got the attitude,intensity,aggression,confidence and conditioning to do those techniques over and over untill you can get away or they are knocked out.Iv realised that is whats missing from lots of martial arts in the mainstream, after being around some martial artists who are the real deal.The violence.Not burying it under mystical jargon and being a great person or growing spiritualy but using it and being realistic that you have to be more violent than the attacker.There is no escaping that.

Just doing a straight punch over and over in someones face,very intensly,very violently with an attitude of get the f***k away from me is better than knowing 1000s of things.
Never be intimidated by anyone or be timid in danger...confidently realise your right to destroy them if they try to intimidate or attack you and confidently apply what ever technique it is and do it violently.

And Im not talking about uncontrolled 'grrr' and just mindlessly going nuts.
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#383303 - 08/06/08 06:03 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TeK9]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Few things, first the spinning back kick is not really a basic kick. I mean to most WTF TKD it maybe, but to most MA's it is not. Furthermore, its not the easiest of kicks to master, and it surely cant be done in 6 months. not to make it functional anyways. not with all the other basics you have to learn.

Timing, distancing, footwork, not to mention the ability to read your opponent so that you can actually apply the kick to the proper attack. Cuz if u do it wrong your screwed. This only comes over time, and experience. Considering only the few attributes I named up top, footwork itself is an art form.





Tek9, my post was aimed at Taekwondo black belts. What I was trying to convey is that if the only aspects of your art that you feel are useful are the things you learn at the beginning why bother learning the rest?

A beginner won't have the skills to apply a back kick in a real fight, but a black belt should have the skills having dedicated the time and gained the experience necessary to do so and more importantly the confidence in his ability. Ability to utilize the fundamentals of your art is IMO the universal minimum standard that a black belt should signify. You might have more to learn, you might have much refinement to make, but that which is fundamental to your art you should be able to perform and apply. I have never encountered an art or school that, at least in theory, demanded less.
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#383304 - 08/06/08 08:46 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Shonuff]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Shonuff,

The way I look at it is like this. I always want my opponent in front of me, EVEN though I have the confidence in my spin back kick. Its not that I believe as some do (Jim Wagner for instance)about learning the basics and moving on.For me its about keeping it simple and ending it quickly and IF the situation FORCES me to adjust and use a technique that I would prefer not to but I KNOW that I can and I have the TRUST in that ability to execute it, then I will. I just don't believe in turning my back on an attacker.

VDJ


Edited by VDJ (08/06/08 08:50 PM)

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