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#383255 - 02/14/08 09:45 PM Using TKD in a SD situation
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Do you have a game plan on what you might do if you are confronted or attacked? How would you use your TKD skills to defend yourself?

Just wondering if anyone here has thought about it.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#383256 - 02/15/08 03:21 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Assuming avoidance is out of the question. I think it would always depend on the situation and the attacker. Given a threatening advisary advancing towards me from the front with no other means than confrontation.

Being primarily a stand up striking art I would think I would want to concentrate on basic powerful strikes most probable multiple hand techniques (punches) and quick powerful kicks if avaliable to the lower portions say from the waist to the knee.

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#383257 - 02/15/08 06:26 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: flynch]
paddyska Offline
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Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Coatbridge, Scotland
There are thousands of ways you can be attacked, so it would be impossible to have a game plan for every viable situation, and you don't always know when your gonna get attacked. Just let your natural training take over. From my past experiences, i would say the best weapon is your mouth!! Faking your way out works wonders for me!

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#383258 - 02/15/08 07:56 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: paddyska]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
personly i would focus on using single powerful strikes against vulrable spots on the body. side piercing kicks to the side of the knees, knee strikes to the coccyx and scrotum or side and forfist strikes to the heart and of course the good old finger tip thrusts (spear hand)to the groin throat or eyes.

I'm well aware that my training has a large gap in the grapling dept. However, i dont think there are many muggers out there who are Judo masters. I know a few grapling mehtods some of which are simply brawling moves that ave been handed down through the family, and others, are MA which i've read up on and tried. I feel this would be suffiecient.
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#383259 - 02/15/08 09:21 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: paddyska]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

There are thousands of ways you can be attacked, so it would be impossible to have a game plan for every viable situation, and you don't always know when your gonna get attacked. Just let your natural training take over. From my past experiences, i would say the best weapon is your mouth!! Faking your way out works wonders for me!




Agree with this 100%! But just for the sake of the thread our motto is "Eyes,ears,nose and throat. The Doctor is IN!". Groin shots are effective but not as easy to hit the target as everybody thinks. Busting a knee or an elbow is life altering to the recipient (the throat is as well) and could cause you some serious legal problems down the road if you can't prove your life was endangered. #1 rule of ANY art for SD, KNOW YOUR ENVIRONMENT AND DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN A BAD POSITION.

VDJ

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#383260 - 02/15/08 11:35 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Hey Brian. I think of this from time to time and like others, avoidance is my first and foremost first course of action. I really don't want to fight if I don't have to; but for this I will use the example that I had to.

I would keep my hands in front of my face but I wouldn't make any fists; this is a sign of aggression. I would keep talking, trying to de-escalate the situation. If something happens I must react and I must commit and I must end it as quickly as possible with as least amount of injury to myself.

If a punch is thrown I can use my hands to parry or deflect, keeping in mind that I will probably have to off-set my body and head slightly to limit me getting hit. My hands are not only up to protect me but to create something for him to look at and I would make sure that that is what he is looking at. If at a kicking range it will be low and hard around the knee section which will hopefully surprise him and then I explode on him with punches to the face and neck. My hopes is to get in close to clinch him while delivering knees to his groin, stomach and perhaps a bent over head shot. If he wants to pull away then I don't want to fight it and exhaust myself so will let him go while at the same time still coming forward with punches and forearms/elbows. It won't look pretty and it won't end pretty.

Being TKD with all of its kicks still doesn't mean that I'm going to kick all that much. I'm not going for any high kicks and probably the only other kicking I will be doing is once he hits the ground and I make sure he stays down with multiple kicks to the body; preferably not the head as to not maim him but if I have to then "I was in fear for my life" when I talk to the police.

I think anything that has to happen has to be with basics; nothing fancy. It requires commitment and explosiveness. You cannot allow them to take charge nor can you allow yourself to have an emotional dump. If you are the defender once it happens you must become the attacker; take that power away from them, put the fear in them. And from past experience, don't stop and allow them to recuperate or get up to attack you again; don't stop until they are not a threat. If you can get out of there then do so and don't hang around unless the police are in the area already. Go to the police if need be to report the incident but don't hang around in case friends show up or other dangers are apparent.

Will it happen this way; probably not, but it is something trained so I'm hoping those instincts kick in.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#383261 - 02/15/08 01:28 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: VDJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

There are thousands of ways you can be attacked, so it would be impossible to have a game plan for every viable situation, and you don't always know when your gonna get attacked. Just let your natural training take over. From my past experiences, i would say the best weapon is your mouth!! Faking your way out works wonders for me!




Agree with this 100%! But just for the sake of the thread our motto is "Eyes,ears,nose and throat. The Doctor is IN!". Groin shots are effective but not as easy to hit the target as everybody thinks. Busting a knee or an elbow is life altering to the recipient (the throat is as well) and could cause you some serious legal problems down the road if you can't prove your life was endangered. #1 rule of ANY art for SD, KNOW YOUR ENVIRONMENT AND DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN A BAD POSITION.

VDJ


Quote:







VDJ


Well said I second.

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#383262 - 02/15/08 01:35 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: von1]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Side kick to the knee/shins and punching the sternum. Then I would get the hell out of there. It does not get any simpler than that.

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#383263 - 02/15/08 02:45 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EvenRats]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Having trained long and hard to develop my TKD leg muscles, I'd use them to the best effect... run!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#383264 - 02/15/08 04:33 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: von1]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There are thousands of ways you can be attacked, so it would be impossible to have a game plan for every viable situation, and you don't always know when your gonna get attacked. Just let your natural training take over. From my past experiences, i would say the best weapon is your mouth!! Faking your way out works wonders for me!




Agree with this 100%! But just for the sake of the thread our motto is "Eyes,ears,nose and throat. The Doctor is IN!". Groin shots are effective but not as easy to hit the target as everybody thinks. Busting a knee or an elbow is life altering to the recipient (the throat is as well) and could cause you some serious legal problems down the road if you can't prove your life was endangered. #1 rule of ANY art for SD, KNOW YOUR ENVIRONMENT AND DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN A BAD POSITION.

VDJ


Quote:







VDJ


Well said I second.




Thank you ! And I would like to compliment you on your spelling. I'm guessing that you have worked on your patience at the keyboard.

VDJ

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#383265 - 02/15/08 10:29 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
As others said, avoid if you can. If not, I would apply whatever of the 3,200+ fundamental movements that I have learned to the situation at hand. Protect, ounter hard & try to establish the upper hand as best you can.

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#383266 - 02/16/08 12:08 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
in a situation where my safety was threatened and avoidance was not an option, i would have no reservations with using any nasty technique. kick to the groin...check. poke in the eyes...check. knees/elbows to the face...check. whatever gets the job done. now i wouldn't stand there and beat the guy continuously, just disable and get out of there.
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#383267 - 02/16/08 12:25 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

As others said, avoid if you can. If not, I would apply whatever of the 3,200+ fundamental movements that I have learned to the situation at hand. Protect, ounter hard & try to establish the upper hand as best you can.




Your 3200 figure brings to mind a question. Do you think it's necessarily better to have so many options to draw from when your in a high pressure situation like SD? The reason why I ask is that I've seen hapkido instructors who also claims to teach "thousands" of techniques useful for SD. Many of these techniques are probably useful, but I am forced to wonder how many them you'll really need.

In most combative sports, even in disciplines that have a wide variety of techniques, you'll usually see a handful of basics that are used over an over again. Most MMA matches display a couple of takedowns and 3-4 main submissions (armbar, triangle choke, guillotine, RNC). Olympic TKD fighter rely mostly on single/double roundhouses, counter roundhouse, cut kick, and back kick. Boxers have jab, cross, hook, and uppercut. Now I know SD and combative sports are apples and oranges, but I think principle of being proficient in a few basic moves applies to SD as well.

What do you think?

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#383268 - 02/16/08 07:27 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: trevek]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Having trained long and hard to develop my TKD leg muscles, I'd use them to the best effect... run!




Right on man! Best response IMHO!!!

On another note, the question Brian asked is a pretty good one. I don't want to add too much to it, but I read a lot about using certain techniques here etc... If it were me I would assess the situation first, particularly my enviornment. For instance:

You are in a crowded place (e.g. a bar) You don't have a lot of room to manauvere. For me, I would say kicks of pretty much any sort were out the window...

I don't want to get into specific scenarios here, that is not what the thread is about (I think!)

I do believe though that rather than focusing purely on techniques I would also focus on where I was, what was around me etc... If you just think of yourself in a fight and what you alone will do, that could be the road to ruin. That is only my opinion.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#383269 - 02/16/08 11:02 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think you are right & have a good point. I feel that is a necessary approach to have when it comes to real SD. Our point is not only should you have a strong core techniques that you own, so to speak, but to also have others that you can draw from to meet specific situations. For example, most learn a front snap kick early on in their training. It is a useful & can be a powerful kick, that is fairly easy to learn & own. However, less are taught front snap kick with the knee as the tool. So if in a situation where they feel they are too close for a front snap kick, using the ball of the foot, they can quickly adapt to using the knee as the attacking tool.

This concept is important when considering angle & distance of attacks/defense, as well as knowing approriate tool for the correct vital spot.

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#383270 - 02/16/08 03:18 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: ITFunity]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
An interesting question regarding this thread; has anyone ever used their TKD training against someone who was passive and aggressive?

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#383271 - 02/16/08 04:51 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EvenRats]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Not sure I understand what you mean

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#383272 - 02/16/08 05:07 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: ITFunity]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
do you meen an abusive person who wasn't being violent?
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#383273 - 02/16/08 07:18 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TKD-Skippi]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Oops, I mean just aggressive. Sorry, as I explained in the other thread I lacked oxygen in my brain.

Have you ever used TKD in your own defense?

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#383274 - 02/16/08 07:38 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EvenRats]
JimmyTKD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Boston, MA
How about a swift kick to the aggressor's lower side of the leg, maybe to the side of the knee or even the femur?

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#383275 - 02/17/08 11:05 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: JimmyTKD]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
i've used it once or twice. i used arm locks on a bully who was picking on this 'simple' kid i knew.
i used to know a guy who descided to be a Kato to my inspector cluso and attck me at various time thorughout the day.....he seemd to think it was a great idea. other tha these i ,by the grace of God, have had a very nice peacefull existance.
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#383276 - 02/17/08 01:17 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Having trained long and hard to develop my TKD leg muscles, I'd use them to the best effect... run!




Ahh yes a true believer in "Run - Fu" and Nike "Jitsu"

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#383277 - 02/17/08 01:21 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322

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#383278 - 02/17/08 01:23 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: badachagi]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Your 3200 figure brings to mind a question. Do you think it's necessarily better to have so many options to draw from when your in a high pressure situation like SD? <<

HAving too many things to draw from has potential negative consequences. On the other hand, think of a skilled carpenter. He may use only 20% of his tools 90 % of the time. The other 10% he may be able to improvise and use what he has, but to get the job done efficiently haviing the right tool available is essential.

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#383279 - 02/17/08 07:51 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EarlWeiss]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
A competant practitioner (aka black belt) would only need to use a small number of techniques which he is comfortable with and has become proficient in to protect himslef. On the other hand a Master instructor would need to know most if not all techniques that are avaliable inorder to provide each practioner/student he is resonsable for trainning with a range of tools that they can use.

This would be the difference bewteen a competant fighter and somebody who has Mastery over an Art or any skill for that matter.


Edited by flynch (02/17/08 07:55 PM)

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#383280 - 02/18/08 06:13 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EarlWeiss]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Reminds me of the story of the cat and the fox.

The fox asks the cat, "What do you do when the dogs come?"

"I run up the tree,"

"And, what else?"

"I stay there... it works"

"Is that all, I know a hundred different ways to avoid or outrun them... and you only know one!"

"Hey, it works."

At that moment the baying of the bad-boy bow-wows is heard. The cat scarpers up the nearest tree.

"Hah, watch this!" says the fox. "Now which of the hundred techniques shall I aaaarrrrrrggghhhh!!!"
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#383281 - 02/18/08 07:03 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: trevek]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
The point of the story is clear, however. When i was a carpenter i had two very large tool boxes with a huge mix of tools for special jobs. on a day to day basis i would use a hammer a saw and a plane. these were the tools i cleaned and kept as sharp as a razor blade.95% of my work was carried out with these tools and the other tools in the box were seldom used.when i needed them ,howeevr, they were the most usefull items i owned.
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#383282 - 02/18/08 08:24 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TKD-Skippi]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Leaving, running, getting away is a good response if you are alone. If you have your family with you, it is a little harder to do if you are not already in your car or moving to your car.

If there is a significant other, have them move themselves and the children to a location out of harms way why you use your verbal skills to de-escalate the situation. As dereck said, keeping hands open and up to show a less threatening but protective position.

Once family is safely out of the situation then you can start to retreat. If a confrontation can not be avoided, do what you can to discourage the attack or end it quickly. Keep distance, use circular movement, & know your environment. Always look for an avenue to escape.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#383283 - 02/18/08 04:18 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: RazorFoot]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Another common example where leaving is not an option is if some "bone head" comes into your place of businessa and attempts to impose his will on you. De escalation skilss become very important, but losing your business through intimidation is not a real option.


Edited by Dedicated1 (02/18/08 06:55 PM)

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#383284 - 02/18/08 08:37 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EarlWeiss]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
'Running' is always the best option. If it can't be avoided however, like most have said in this thread, strike fast and hard, keep your distance and run when the opportunity comes up. The purpose of self-defense is not to finish off your aggressor(unless he/she seriously doesn't learn their lesson). It also helps to know a thing or two about vital and pressure points.

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#383285 - 02/18/08 09:28 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TKD-Skippi]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or no one really wants to answer. Maybe it's not a fair question given the million different scenario's.

I know that getting out of the situation is always the best option. I hope most people know that by now.

What is your bread and butter technique(s)?

Most people get really good at a handful of techniques even though they may "know" 600.

What would be your best unarmed weapon that is TKD based.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#383286 - 02/18/08 09:50 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or no one really wants to answer. Maybe it's not a fair question given the million different scenario's.

I know that getting out of the situation is always the best option. I hope most people know that by now.

What is your bread and butter technique(s)?

Most people get really good at a handful of techniques even though they may "know" 600.

What would be your best unarmed weapon that is TKD based.




If you're looking for the simple answer that can be applied in a variety of scenarios (accept for possibly life threatening), then I would have to say a "Stun & Strike". A quick low snap kick to the shin or a hard slap to the face for the stun with a nice hard palm heel strike to the nose, which at minimal will tear up the eyes and at worse break the nose causing enough pain and disorientation to make a get away. But again, depending on the situation. It really is hard to say !

VDJ

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#383287 - 02/18/08 10:31 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or no one really wants to answer. Maybe it's not a fair question given the million different scenario's.

I know that getting out of the situation is always the best option. I hope most people know that by now.

What is your bread and butter technique(s)?

Most people get really good at a handful of techniques even though they may "know" 600.

What would be your best unarmed weapon that is TKD based.




I believe that question was answered already, no? In that case; side kick or low front snap kick to the shins and a punch to the nose/mouth. You have to look into the environment and setting of the place. Most of the time you'll find yourself using even the most simplest yet effective techniques.

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#383288 - 02/19/08 04:28 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EvenRats]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Brian, I think I answered your question.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#383289 - 02/19/08 04:33 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: badachagi]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Your 3200 figure brings to mind a question. Do you think it's necessarily better to have so many options to draw from when your in a high pressure situation like SD? The reason why I ask is that I've seen hapkido instructors who also claims to teach "thousands" of techniques useful for SD. Many of these techniques are probably useful, but I am forced to wonder how many them you'll really need.




I would have to agree with this and why I earlier stated; "I think anything that has to happen has to be with basics; nothing fancy."

However, I think it is good to know many things and have many tools in your tool box as some of those tools you have have use for but when it all boils down to things; the basics are what work and why they are continually trained by all over and over.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#383290 - 02/19/08 04:55 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


What is your bread and butter technique(s)?

Most people get really good at a handful of techniques even though they may "know" 600.

What would be your best unarmed weapon that is TKD based.




I think for almost any striking art the answer is most likely the forefist punch. Some prefer maybe palm strikes, or finger tips and develop them in such a way as to be as effective for them as a forefist punch. However the bottom line is that a linear technique with a hard striking tool is the most basic and most important attack.

For me I would always use the forefist punch. I would like to think that I would have enough accuracy to hit the throat or, solar plexus or temple of an attacker, I know that this may not be the case, and so a hard tool like the forefist is perfect, because it will still cause significant pain and damage to harder targets. It is also how I spar, I use gloves and rarely use anything except straight punches and short hooks. Of course there are plenty of other perfectly viable techniques that one could use, but what I end up using when I spar are hooks and straight punches, so I expect this is how I would defend myself.

At the same time, I think the most important thing about self defense, leaving technique aside for the moment, is a burst of aggression and explosiveness that allows you to become the attacker rather than your opponent. Sometimes, I don't think it is possible to think about using control to not maim your attacker, your primary concern should simply be to stop the threat that they pose. And if you are actually needing to use your self defense, then you are probably in considerable danger since de-escalation has not worked.

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#383291 - 02/19/08 10:27 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Supremor]
flynch Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Primary techniques I would be looking at using in this situation. Bread and butter

Punch to the head and front snap kick just above the waiste.

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#383292 - 02/20/08 03:52 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
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slap them in the face with some buttered bread... blinds them. As I run away I lead them onto a patch of spread butter so they slip over and hurt themselves.

Failing that, backfist/side-kick
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#383293 - 02/20/08 11:54 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: trevek]
EvenRats Offline
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Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

slap them in the face with some buttered bread... blinds them. As I run away I lead them onto a patch of spread butter so they slip over and hurt themselves.

Failing that, backfist/side-kick




THE ART OF SLAPPING BUTTERED BREAD FACE NEVER FAILS.

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#383294 - 03/11/08 10:39 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

slap them in the face with some buttered bread... blinds them. As I run away I lead them onto a patch of spread butter so they slip over and hurt themselves.

Failing that, backfist/side-kick





He who runs today, lives to fight tomorrow!

(next day), I slapped him, back fisted, snapped kicked, side kicked, choppep his neck pulled their eyes out and made their friends eat them, all 12 of them, well I would have , but I had to get home.

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#383295 - 03/12/08 12:15 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: von1]
Shonuff Offline
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Step back/side to make distance.
Use space to engage with verbal conflict resolution.
Keep said distance until opponent lunges/rushes to close.
Intercept with a powerful straight line kick and follow with hands, or...
Evade the lunge/rush and place fast accurate and powerful kick to a weak spot before the assailant recovers balance and realigns. Follow with hand techniques.

If space is an issue the same options apply, just with tighter evasion smaller techniques and greater use of knees. Creating space is always the safer option and knowing how to deflect and push an adversary away is preferable to fighting in close when self defense is the aim.


Edited by Shonuff (03/12/08 12:23 PM)
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#383296 - 03/12/08 06:56 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Shonuff]
EvenRats Offline
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Posts: 75
An interesting thought, but has anyone ever considered using the back kick?

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#383297 - 03/12/08 08:41 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: EvenRats]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

An interesting thought, but has anyone ever considered using the back kick?




Yes they have been considered and used, but any SD instructor worth their salt will teach you to NEVER turn your back on your opponent.The same goes for head kicks(unless they are bent over and their head is as high as say your belt line). It is always best to be facing your attacker and use what ever is possible to create a barrier (if it is multiple attackers then it is best to render one ineffective and keep them between you and the secondary assailant, if it is a single attacker than putting some kind of inanimate object between you is wise).

VDJ

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#383298 - 03/12/08 09:39 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: VDJ]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Well said!
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#383299 - 03/13/08 08:01 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: BrianS]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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I second that.
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#383300 - 08/06/08 07:29 AM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: VDJ]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Quote:

An interesting thought, but has anyone ever considered using the back kick?




Yes they have been considered and used, but any SD instructor worth their salt will teach you to NEVER turn your back on your opponent.The same goes for head kicks(unless they are bent over and their head is as high as say your belt line). It is always best to be facing your attacker and use what ever is possible to create a barrier (if it is multiple attackers then it is best to render one ineffective and keep them between you and the secondary assailant, if it is a single attacker than putting some kind of inanimate object between you is wise).

VDJ




Sorry to dredge up ancient material, but I was researching and noticed this.

The advice above is sound, but basic. When fighting in self defense one should generally aim to keep things simple, not least because they don't really need to be particularly advanced.

However I can't help but feel like what is the point in dedicating yourself to years of MA training if the first 6 months is all that is applicable. Well those who follow my views (the sound of wind and tumble weed follows) will know that I don't believe in that.
If you have the skill and a little bit of self belief a spinning back kick is one of the most effective self defense weapons in any kickers arsenal. It is the ultimate counter kick and to me embodies taekwondo. As your opponent attacks you lean away and before he knows what is going on you plant your heel in his stomach.

Yes it is a risk, but fighting is risk. If you cannot ever use what you learn then why learn it?

My honest feeling is that if a TKDist cannot use their techniques, such as a spinning back kick, which is a basic movement of TKD, in self defense then they should give back their black belt and not seek another one until that situation is rectified, either by finding another teacher or by taking control of their own training.
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#383301 - 08/06/08 02:18 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Shonuff]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

If you're looking for the simple answer that can be applied in a variety of scenarios (accept for possibly life threatening), then I would have to say a "Stun & Strike". A quick low snap kick to the shin or a hard slap to the face for the stun with a nice hard palm heel strike to the nose, which at minimal will tear up the eyes and at worse break the nose causing enough pain and disorientation to make a get away. But again, depending on the situation. It really is hard to say !

VDJ




I agree with this 100%. A few basic techniques. I use the Acrynom Escape To Get Safe: Eyes, Throat, Groin, and Shins.

I also agree that a good palm slap against the assailants ear will give u time to escape, as his ear will be ringing and his equilibrium will be thrown off.

Quote:


Quote:
As others said, avoid if you can. If not, I would apply whatever of the 3,200+ fundamental movements that I have learned to the situation at hand. Protect, ounter hard & try to establish the upper hand as best you can.



Your 3200 figure brings to mind a question. Do you think it's necessarily better to have so many options to draw from when your in a high pressure situation like SD? The reason why I ask is that I've seen hapkido instructors who also claims to teach "thousands" of techniques useful for SD. Many of these techniques are probably useful, but I am forced to wonder how many them you'll really need.

In most combative sports, even in disciplines that have a wide variety of techniques, you'll usually see a handful of basics that are used over an over again. Most MMA matches display a couple of takedowns and 3-4 main submissions (armbar, triangle choke, guillotine, RNC). Olympic TKD fighter rely mostly on single/double roundhouses, counter roundhouse, cut kick, and back kick. Boxers have jab, cross, hook, and uppercut. Now I know SD and combative sports are apples and oranges, but I think principle of being proficient in a few basic moves applies to SD as well.

What do you think?




Again I agree here. That is the problem with many martial arts, and the very reason why so many Real Based Martial Arts schools and seminars have become to popular and profitable. Traditional martial arts, in the actual sense that we learn it. Is seen as a life time of study or an art. Meaning that for any given attack, there is an infinite amount of responses to choose from within ones own arsenal of techniques. While this may be true in theory, actuality, when we are attack there is so much more than technique to consider, we are put into a stressful situation with limited time to process the information. there just isn't enough time to go through our entire portfolio of techniques to pick from. Which is why it is best to know and drill a few techniques which can be a response for multiple situation. This is where the RBSD shine. They have narrowed down their arsenal, and as difficult for many 'traditionalist" to accept. There simply are techniques that work better than others. There is such a thing as a superior technique. One that works 98% of the time compared to one that works 50%+ of the time.

Furthermore many of the training techniques are outdated, simply put MAist have refused to change with the time, and do not practice in a way to make their moves functional. This training I speak of is "aliveness". The definition can be seen on my realism and TKD thread. Traditionally earning your black belt in TKD means you have a mastery of the basics. All this means is you know how to apply the technique correctly. If I were to give you my hand, you could put me in an arm lock. This does not however mean you can functionalize the technique in a situation where I am really trying to resist you, not only that I am also trying to counter your attack with one of my own.

According to many books, it is during the back belt training in TKD when the concepts become functional, but from my experiences this simply isn't true. And is one of the very reasons why I refused to get a 2nd, and 3rd. degree black belt after I have already met the requirements.

Quote:

However I can't help but feel like what is the point in dedicating yourself to years of MA training if the first 6 months is all that is applicable. Well those who follow my views (the sound of wind and tumble weed follows) will know that I don't believe in that.
If you have the skill and a little bit of self belief a spinning back kick is one of the most effective self defense weapons in any kickers arsenal. It is the ultimate counter kick and to me embodies taekwondo. As your opponent attacks you lean away and before he knows what is going on you plant your heel in his stomach.

Yes it is a risk, but fighting is risk. If you cannot ever use what you learn then why learn it?

My honest feeling is that if a TKDist cannot use their techniques, such as a spinning back kick, which is a basic movement of TKD, in self defense then they should give back their black belt and not seek another one until that situation is rectified, either by finding another teacher or by taking control of their own training.




Few things, first the spinning back kick is not really a basic kick. I mean to most WTF TKD it maybe, but to most MA's it is not. Furthermore, its not the easiest of kicks to master, and it surely cant be done in 6 months. not to make it functional anyways. not with all the other basics you have to learn.

Timing, distancing, footwork, not to mention the ability to read your opponent so that you can actually apply the kick to the proper attack. Cuz if u do it wrong your screwed. This only comes over time, and experience. Considering only the few attributes I named up top, footwork itself is an art form.

Once again I have to mention, that the first 6 months of basic training are not usually spent learning the techniques in a method conducive to making them functional; its only good for learning the mechanics of the techniques.

But as you stated why learn all this stuff if its not useful, and while i agree with you that the back kick is an awesome kick in TKD, it does have its proper place in a fight. If used out of context it can be nullified putting you at an disadvantage. So lets not be so gung ho about it. Like me, I'm sure you would back kick to the groin to enhance the kicks effectiveness.

Also in self defense, it usually involves some sort of grabbing or escaping techniques. All of which as I stated earlier can be addressed with a few basic yet effectives strikes.

Eyes, throat, groin, and shins. Escape To Get Safe can be applied from any angle of attack. And most importantly isn't difficult to drill and so can be memorized by even the most layman person. This helps for those little stressful life or death situation.
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#383302 - 08/06/08 05:56 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The thing that I think takes a longer time to learn is tactics and how to apply things in all kinds of situations.
Its been said lots of times as an example though its a good one....a boxer learns just a few punches,the same ones from novice to world champion.Experience in all kinds of situations and little tips and tactics have to be learned on the job...in sparring and in drills and in fights.Thats what seperates and takes time

Knowing lots of techniques means nothing if you have not got the attitude,intensity,aggression,confidence and conditioning to do those techniques over and over untill you can get away or they are knocked out.Iv realised that is whats missing from lots of martial arts in the mainstream, after being around some martial artists who are the real deal.The violence.Not burying it under mystical jargon and being a great person or growing spiritualy but using it and being realistic that you have to be more violent than the attacker.There is no escaping that.

Just doing a straight punch over and over in someones face,very intensly,very violently with an attitude of get the f***k away from me is better than knowing 1000s of things.
Never be intimidated by anyone or be timid in danger...confidently realise your right to destroy them if they try to intimidate or attack you and confidently apply what ever technique it is and do it violently.

And Im not talking about uncontrolled 'grrr' and just mindlessly going nuts.
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#383303 - 08/06/08 06:03 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: TeK9]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Few things, first the spinning back kick is not really a basic kick. I mean to most WTF TKD it maybe, but to most MA's it is not. Furthermore, its not the easiest of kicks to master, and it surely cant be done in 6 months. not to make it functional anyways. not with all the other basics you have to learn.

Timing, distancing, footwork, not to mention the ability to read your opponent so that you can actually apply the kick to the proper attack. Cuz if u do it wrong your screwed. This only comes over time, and experience. Considering only the few attributes I named up top, footwork itself is an art form.





Tek9, my post was aimed at Taekwondo black belts. What I was trying to convey is that if the only aspects of your art that you feel are useful are the things you learn at the beginning why bother learning the rest?

A beginner won't have the skills to apply a back kick in a real fight, but a black belt should have the skills having dedicated the time and gained the experience necessary to do so and more importantly the confidence in his ability. Ability to utilize the fundamentals of your art is IMO the universal minimum standard that a black belt should signify. You might have more to learn, you might have much refinement to make, but that which is fundamental to your art you should be able to perform and apply. I have never encountered an art or school that, at least in theory, demanded less.
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#383304 - 08/06/08 08:46 PM Re: Using TKD in a SD situation [Re: Shonuff]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Shonuff,

The way I look at it is like this. I always want my opponent in front of me, EVEN though I have the confidence in my spin back kick. Its not that I believe as some do (Jim Wagner for instance)about learning the basics and moving on.For me its about keeping it simple and ending it quickly and IF the situation FORCES me to adjust and use a technique that I would prefer not to but I KNOW that I can and I have the TRUST in that ability to execute it, then I will. I just don't believe in turning my back on an attacker.

VDJ


Edited by VDJ (08/06/08 08:50 PM)

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