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#382255 - 02/17/08 06:43 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
karate_popo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 154
Loc: NYC
one of the officers in my unit, said that he studied ninjistu in the military.. i think he was in the army, but not sure... anyone familiar with that?. i mean i know he is telling the truth, because he showed me some things.. then there is this guy in my martial arts class that was in the military as well and he is alot more advanced then i am and moved up quicker even though he had less time, so i assumed that was because of his military training.. not sure though..

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#382256 - 02/18/08 03:16 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: karate_popo]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Karate, he's FOS. There is no Ninjutsu in the US military. Period. Unless he meant he studied it while he was in.

Globetrotter, if we have cooks clearing rooms then the $&*% has really hit the fan. That much is true.

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#382257 - 02/20/08 02:59 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

how many physical contacts have you been part of, witnessed or have personal knowledge of between an on duty military person and a non-american military person/citizen where firearms weren't part of the equation?




Personal experience...a few years ago, when i was a radar operator doing VBSS, i had a man try to take my holstered side arm. It was a compliant boarding and i was going over the ships paperwork when he tried to take my weapon, back then we all used thigh holsters. Fortunately i didn't have to rely on the training i received from the Navy. More recently my partner and i were attacked while on duty in town by males of "Middle Eastern decent" (later determined to be Syrian). This has happened 3 times in the last 9 months to me alone, there were about 4 or 5 other occasions where it happened to others from my department. Six months ago i was working event staff when one of our outside security patrols was attacked. The main issue here is in most situations off base we aren't allowed to be armed. We are only allowed to carry a concealed weapon for special events and the local authorities here severely limit the number of permits we are allowed to have. We currently only have 2 people allowed to carry in town for special events. In all of these cases the individuals didn't have any weapons and numbered typically 2-3 attackers but was for the most part a one-on-one situation. There were a couple of incidents where a glass bottle used and a "tire iron" although i think the last one was BS...long story. In all but two incidences the military involved were LEO, the other two were a personnel clerk and a yeoman (both paper pushers) but they all held their own and came away none the worse for wear mainly due to the training conducted as a group here. This isn't "Navy" H2H, just a small handful of us being allowed to give training about 3-4 times a month to those who happen to show up for PT that particular morning. As i said before the pitiful excuse for H2H our LEOs get is pointless, literally one week. They do one day of strikes/blocks, one day of weapon retention, one day of baton training and 2 days of control techniques where they only cover 5 arm locks...poorly.

Quote:

I think that we are looking at things from a totally different perspective




I agree completely. I'm just wondering if you have an issue with "cooks and drivers" being in the desert or the Navy in general being there (not saying you have anything against the Navy mind you). Here is my take on it. I don't see what it matters what their normal job is, they can and are still very capable of handling themselves in these situations. It's not like we are pulling some guy out of the galley, throwing him a gun and Kevlar and saying "here ya go, get to it". They are receiving training before going out. Currently IAs are going to Fort Jackson for what amounts to a mini boot camp. The training is only about 3 weeks long but it only focuses on the skills they need in combat. Personally i don't feel it's enough but at least it's something. They are being trained by the Army and in some cases sent to Army units.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=35338&archive=true

At the time this article was published our guys were only getting 12 days of training but most were standing sentry duties. At first the program was terrible but they have done some to make it better.

Quote:

I have no argument with the facts on the ground, but I would suggest that the fact that blue water sailors are being used for infantry roles in the dessert is not good for the warmaking capacity of the military as a whole. what happens if we are faced with a naval crisis with china or india in 3 years, as an example?




It's actually going to have little impact actually. On average there are only a small handful of sailors being pulled from ships. The majority are coming from shore duty rotations. The logic behind it is this; we have several jobs in the Navy that are "over manned". This meaning we have some positions where when it's time to rotate to shore duty you either don't have a job on shore that translates to your job at sea or there are too many people already doing that job at shore. My old job was a prime example; once i left the ship i had a choice. i could either be an instructor and teach people to do my job or do something that had nothing what so ever to do with my job such as recruiting or taking a staff billet. The problem with that is taking something out of rate can pretty much kill your career so i took instructor duty. Unfortunately we were over staffed so i rarely got to see a class room which is why i volunteered for ASF and eventually converted. Any way the concept was to take these people who had basically nothing to do on shore duty and put them to use. There are some who are plucked from ships but far from enough to make an impact. Because of this our sea capabilities haven't suffered any.

Quote:

this comes back to my question above - as far as I am concerned, if you can say "I have seen 15 encounters where a cook with 6 hours training kicked the ass of a terrorist who jumped him on the way to the shower" then I have no more argument,




Well it wasn't 15 encounters it was two, it wasn't a cook but they were paper pushers and they didn't have 6 hours of training, it was more like 12-15 hours but they did handle themselves very well and neither had any previous training. They managed to come out of it unharmed minus a few scrapes and one was even able to hold one for the local police. It's not like they had one-on-one training or even a small group. There is generally about 20-30 people at these sessions and 4 or 5 of us working with them.

Quote:

very possibly - I won't dispute how good you are at your job. my personal experience is such that, if I had to chose a squad to ride with, I wouldn't go with somebody with your background, probrably. infantry isn't brain surgury- but I spent months doing things like changing magazines, clearing jammed ammo, falling on my face in the dirt, running uphill carrying weight, etc. 20 years later it is ingrained in my muscle memory. I find it very difficult to believe that that can be achieved in a few weeks.




What exactly is it you think we do? My rate is divided into 3 basic sections, law enforcement, mobile security and corrections. Our mobile security teams are nothing more than infantry. Thatís all they train during a 3 year tour. We deploy to Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Africa and we have teams that rotate through Bahrain to do ship security also. You seem to have this idea that the Army and Marines are the only ones able to do this type of work but your wrong. Our seabee battalions are nothing more than your 21 series MOS with a different name. I get the feeling that you feel the Army should stay in the dirt, the Navy should stay at sea and the Air Force should stick to fly byes. Unfortunately thatís not how it is and it hasn't been for a long time, all the services intermingle with is why we have pilots in all four services, we have ground troops in all four services, hell the Army had ships. At least one was still in Bahrain when i was first their in '98. There is nothing wrong with each service doing their part in other areas as long as they are properly trained. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen.

Quote:

I guess my main question is how to you know that they are doing no better or worse that the army and marines there?




The feed back i get from the Army and Marines there. We are one of the major support activities in the Med. and we get units from all services stopping through here both on their way in and out of the Gulf. Because of my position i'm responsible for giving the port brief to everyone who comes to this island that is in one way or another connected to the military so i get to talk to a lot of the people who are working with our sailors there. Obviously there are those who feel the same way, that we should stick to the ships but for the most part the responses have been positive.

Quote:

I would be genuinly interested in seeing the differences in casulties and in missions between infantry and re-trained navy.




So would i but unfortunately most of what i see these days comes from transient personnel. My job these days keeps me busy worrying about base integrity, threat assessments and stand off distances. The only thing keeping me off a desk for the next year is running event security and shore patrol. Hopefully in the next couple of months i'll get word back on protective services and where i'm going.

Quote:

look, go back and read my first post on this subject - if you are saying "these guys could get kidnapped and a little training will keep them safe" then I am all for this level of training. if you are saying "on patrol we need h2h" then I would say "no, if you know how to operate you firearm well enough, and if your patrol leader knows what he is doing, you shouldn't ever need h2h"




This goes back to what i said in a previous post. When on patrol, even in urban areas of Iraq, you can't just shoot someone who tries to grab your weapon anymore. There is one thing that has changed dramatically with this war compared to others. We are under the micro scope much more these days with the media coverage. Even if it was still SOP to shoot them the administration would soon cave to public out cry of excessive force, which is why some of the ROE have been modified to begin with. Yes there are still situations where there are no questions or gray areas and i agree fully that in those areas H2H should never come into play. Unfortunately though there are situations on patrol (not in a LEO status) where it is needed, because no one in the military does the same thing for their entire time in service it's reasonable to think everyone should receive the same H2H training so that when they rotate from their duty protecting the ammo dump or reactor where their ROE says they can simply shoot to a position where they have to have more justification than "they crossed that line i drew" to shoot someone they will have the basic ability to handle what ever situation is presented.

If it's ok for the Marines to train everyone in H2H regardless of their MOS why should it be different for everyone else? Isn't it true that regardless of your MOS in the Army you still have to know basic combat skills? I have a friend who was in the Army band but he was still required to know how to handle himself in a combat situation, how is this different?
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#382258 - 02/21/08 04:22 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Laf,

thanks for your reply


1. I understand pretty well where we are disagreeing - and it comes back to the idea of what the h2h is about. again, like I said before if we are talking about h2h for the self defence os military personal in the field, no matter who those people are, I agree that that is a good thing. you seem to be specifically talking about people defending themselves, almost exclusivly on an off duty basis - and yes, h2h is great to have for these people. but, in my opinion, that is almost like training people who work for a non-governmental org in the 3rd world, or an oil company - these are essentially people who have been put in a dangerous situation by their employer, not specifically military people in the course of their duties. does that make sense to you? and yes, I would agree that no matter what the person has inlisted as, and no matter what he has trained as, h2h training for self defense is a good thing.

when I think about the question of h2h for military, I am thinking about using h2h on duty, (non in a military police or personal protection ) enviroment. for instance, riot control, arresting enemies that are not armed with firearms, rescuing hostages, etc. and this is really a job for specialists.

2. I was on the ground during the first palestinian uprising (intafadah) which was, essentially, a situation where you faced huge numbers of rioters armed with sticks, rocks, the occasional knife and axe, and very rarely firearms. in was involved in hundreds of encounters that were, essentially, closed at touching range without the use of firearms. only in one case do I remember an actual martial art move being used - a guy who had studied thai boxing for 10 plus years kicked somebody who attacked his lt. with an axe, and killed the attacker with the kick. in all the other cases, the vast majority of the work was done with a 22 inch hardwood nighstick. also, only very rarly did we kill anybody with those sticks. so, if I were to decide whether to train infantry in h2h or in how to use a nightstick for patrolling, I would go with the stick.

2. again, as to whether or not non-combat personnel can handle themselves in these situations comes down to the differences in what we are talking about: if we are talking about them protecting themselves in off duty situations, then yes, they need to know how to protect themsevles, and you can train a cook, driver or radio operator to do so. one of the guys in my unit who ran the warehouse and distributed uniforms to new recruits was a champion martial artist and went on to run a martial arts school. he didn't want the army to get in the way of his training. if we are talking about the skill set needed to bust into a wanted mans house and arrest him in the middle of the night without having to fire shots, then I would suggest leaving that to the trained personnel.

3. I don't have anything against navy or airforce, but I do think that 3 weeks training is no where near enough to give to sombody who may be faced with an infantry firehight. I trained for something like 15 months, and then pretty much I did 3 months manuvers, 3 months tour for the rest of my service. so when I said that I wouldn't chose somebody with your profile to go on patrol with, it isn't something personal - I can't imagine that the basic operation of a firearm level is at what I would consider an acceptable level for a firefight.

4. I think that you are underestimating the impact of this on warfighting ability - in the same way I did when I was your age. it will affect how people inlist, what they expect from the army, the level of officers in 20 years, a lot of things.

5. I don't say "its ok for the marines to train h2h but not navy". lets break this down into 2 parts - everybody should be trained to defend themselves if the military is putting them into a situation where they are in harms way. but the job of the military isn't to defend itself, it defends itself so that it can carry out its mission.

I am not convinced that most combat soldiers, including marines, should be using h2h for their missions. that is what I am saying.

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