FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 42 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
Zombie Zero 1
harlan 1
Matakiant 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#382245 - 02/13/08 08:22 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

It's dependant on where you are and what "rules" you fall under. If you’re on foot patrol in the desert and someone tries to take your weapon then your course of action based on your ROE may be to take them out. State side on the other hand if someone tries to take your weapon although it may be obvious what his intention is but in many cases you are still expected to handle the situation without deadly force. For example if i'm in San Diego on a call and an individual manages to get his hand on my side arm and tries to remove it but i am able to prevent him from getting it, under your logic he should be shot. Now regardless of his intent i have just shot an unarmed man. My partner couldn't shoot him while he was trying to get it because i'm too close.





well, this gets back to what I said at the begining about military police - I am guessing that you are shore patrol or something similar. myself, an ex infantryman, would catagorize that whole side of the business as something entirely different - no less important, but military policing is fundementally a different animal than the rest of the military, and, as I said in my first or second post one of the areas where people should in fact have h2h training, in my opinion.


Quote:

again, and not to get polical, but I would suggest that having sailors doing infantry work in the dessert is a sign that somebody [censored] up.



Quote:


How is that? Would you rather have sailors continue to be under utilized on ships and shore stations while the Marines and Army have to double up on deployments? This isn't a matter of "should" they be there, they are there and doing a good job. It's not because someone "f"ed up, it's because someone on the top end wanted to "equal out" the services a bit. There is very little going on these days at sea. It's not like the old days when we were at war with countries that actually had a navy they could speak of.






sorry, I disagree. I do not believe that one can be the best possible ships cook and the best possible perimeter guard, they are fundementally differnt jobs. basically, the navy should be in the business of being the best possible navy and being prepared to meet the naval needs of the US, and not filling in for the army/marines.

Quote:



Today’s military is being trained to be more versatile and they are. It is difficult for people to go from an combative mind set to a peace keeping mind set but the simple fact is it's happening and the majority of the people i see are handling it good.






sorry - niether you nor I know that. first, we don't know how well these forces are doing at their jobs. I am guessing that several years after this present conflict is over things will be analyzed and there will be a good indication of how well these forces did their job. I am betting that they will not have done a good job. you are betting that they will. one of us will turn out to be wrong.

secondly, the effects will be seen in the long term - how will it effect recruiting? how will it effect the mental health of the individuals? these things will come up in 10-20 years. again, I am betting that it will not be favorable.

thirdly - how is this effecting the US's ability to wage the next war? this is a relavant point.

Quote:



Quote:

and you might very well be right - it may be that cooks and drivers should be trained in h2h on the chance that they will have to do guard duty in a civillian enviroment, but I am honestly not sure that that is a good use of resources.




There is no "chance" about it, The IA program has been in place for about 2-3 years and the ASF program (formerly 9545) has been in place much longer. I didn't mention it because i thought it was a good idea, i mentioned it because these people ARE being put in these situations so it's justifiable that everyone in the military should receive this sort of training. No matter what theater you are operating in there are going to come a time when you are in the position that you will need to put someone down without the use of a weapon, it's a simple fact and it's not because someone screwed up. This war isn't being fought in a place where you know who your enemy is and even though we are in a hostile environment we can't point a gun at everyone we come in contact with while on patrol and maintaining a reactionary gap in a city full of people isn't always going to happen.






I would like very much to see the statistics for how well cooks and drivers are doing with h2h against intruders.

it looks like we have had very differnt experiences in terms of this kind of thing. I don't mean to be offensinve in any way - but have you personally been involved in patroling hostile civillian population in this conflict (or others?) I wouldn't want to train somebody for a few hours and then have them be protecting my rear from a knifeweilding terrorist or even a serious theif.

Quote:



Regardless of what people think about who should be doing what job and where the simple fact is regardless of what your job is in the military you can find yourself in these situations and they should be trained to handle it. An hour or two of basic control and manipulation techniques every 2 - 4 weeks isn't going to detract from anyone’s training or proficiency in other aspects of their job.




again, I would suggest that an hour or two of training every few weeks isn't going to do a hell of a lot more than getting some cooks and drivers killed.


true story - once I took in a new group of recruits, when I was a platoon training sargent. their was this one really big young guy, who was first to guard our ammo dump. I took him to the position and started explaining to him the rules of engagement - you see somebody yell "stop" then you fire in the air, then you shoot him"....etc. anyway, he was pretty scared at being left out alone, on the first day of training, and I had no faith in him what so ever. so I ended up saying - "if you see anythign, or get scared at all, just shoot in the air, and I'll come running and deal with the situation".

honestly, trying to have cooks and drivers get themselves into things that they won't be able to handle isn't going to help anybody.

Top
#382246 - 02/13/08 09:11 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
let me add something - when I talk about hand to hand combat, I am taking out of the picture using non-lethal weapons. yes, if a soldier on a patrol gets into a fistfight/wrestling match with an enemy, somebody has [censored] up, no matter how you want to slice it. if you have contact and that contact is dealt with with a night stick for instance, then that is a perfectly acceptable (in my opinion) outcome.

when I was in the army, I was 65 kilos. which meant that most bad guys were bigger than me. if I was planning on boxing them, I would have had to spend a lot of my time training. give me a 22 inch hardwood stick, and a few hours of training, and you have a stack of broken bones that you could build a house out of.

this was my meaning - what you don't want is to depend on training people so that they can outfight the enemy in what is more or less a fair fight. the basic concept of the military is to prepare people to fight in a way that will allow them to win in a substantial way.

Top
#382247 - 02/14/08 06:21 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

well, this gets back to what I said at the begining about military police - I am guessing that you are shore patrol or something similar. myself, an ex infantryman, would catagorize that whole side of the business as something entirely different - no less important, but military policing is fundementally a different animal than the rest of the military, and, as I said in my first or second post one of the areas where people should in fact have h2h training, in my opinion.



Quote:

I don't mean to be offensinve in any way - but have you personally been involved in patroling hostile civillian population in this conflict (or others?)




I'm military police but what you don't seem to get is these days we do both. I have done both, i've spent my time in the desert and have seen both sides. I've also done hostile vessel boarding.

Quote:

I wouldn't want to train somebody for a few hours and then have them be protecting my rear from a knifeweilding terrorist or even a serious theif.




Either i'm not explaining this part well or you’re not getting it. I'm not saying to give someone a few hours of training and expect the to perform. This should be an ongoing training where they receive basic fundamentals in boot and follow on schools then continue training throughout their career BUT the "continuing education" doesn't have to be more than a couple of hours every 2-4 months. I'm not talking about teaching people a bunch of fancy moves, i'm talking about basic control techniques that can and will save their lives if something were to happen.

Quote:

sorry, I disagree. I do not believe that one can be the best possible ships cook and the best possible perimeter guard, they are fundementally differnt jobs. basically, the navy should be in the business of being the best possible navy and being prepared to meet the naval needs of the US, and not filling in for the army/marines.




I'm not talking about hypothetical situations here or what i THINK should be done, i'm telling you what IS happening. I'll tell you a little secret; i'm one of those ship guys who converted. I was a radar operator and i was very good at my job, i was qualified as Surface Watch Officer and held the position for 3 years as a junior E-5, the position was normally filled by E-7 through O-3. I also trained all the junior officers as they came in. I did VBSS where we conducted hostile boarding on ships in the gulf. I was sent TAD to security as ASF and was one of two ASF members to get patrolman qualified when all the other ASF members were standing posts and doing bag checks. I enjoyed it so much i converted to military police (officially) a little over a year ago and immediately qualified as Watch Commander only 3 weeks after graduation from our academy and prior to being promoted to E-6 where i became the physical security manager for all military personnel and installations in Greece. I did a tour in the desert and will most likely be going back as protective services next year. So yes i was blue water Navy and now i'm a dirt sailor and i excelled at both as have many of the people i know. There is nothing special about me, i consider myself quite average.

Until the year 2000 you couldn't even join the Navy as military police, you had to wait till you were an E-5 to convert. Now we take them straight out of boot camp. By your assertion anyone who converted to military police was either not good at their previous job or isn't good at their new job.

Quote:

secondly, the effects will be seen in the long term - how will it effect recruiting? how will it effect the mental health of the individuals? these things will come up in 10-20 years. again, I am betting that it will not be favorable.




I'm by no means saying that there aren't going to be side affects to the war, there always are. What does that have to do with a person’s ability to go from one job to another? How does that affect the job that is being done now?

Quote:

thirdly - how is this effecting the US's ability to wage the next war? this is a relavant point.




What does this have to do with military personnel learning H2H? I referenced the FACT that all members of the armed forces today and expect to be in a combat situation and therefore should receive what ever training is useful in helping them survive. What is your point? I could care less about the debate on what is right or wrong with how the military is conducting it troop placement as i stated before. What i'm talking about is the training of the troops, not why they should or shouldn't be there.

Quote:

I would like very much to see the statistics for how well cooks and drivers are doing with h2h against intruders.




Statistics? I'm referring to things i've SEEN, not what i've read about or seen on the news. It seems like you have an issue with persons outside the Army or Marines doing the same job. I hate to tell you this but while infantry is difficult, it's not brain surgery. As i stated before it's happening and it's not going away regardless of how you feel. Again i'm not trying to debate who should be there or why, only that they are there and should receive sufficient training.

Quote:

honestly, trying to have cooks and drivers get themselves into things that they won't be able to handle isn't going to help anybody.




Which is why EVERYONE should get this training so we don't have people in these situations that can't handle it.

Quote:

this was my meaning - what you don't want is to depend on training people so that they can outfight the enemy in what is more or less a fair fight. the basic concept of the military is to prepare people to fight in a way that will allow them to win in a substantial way.




Let's say for the sake of argument that you are 100% correct in the fact that if someone finds themselves in a situation where they need to use H2H techniques that someone screwed up. Why wouldn't we want them to be able to handle the situation as best they can?

I'm not sure if you just have an issue with Navy personnel being in Iraq or where it is your coming from but you need to face facts, its happening. In 2005 - 2006 we had roughly 4000 sailors on IA in Iraq alone. The Army numbers were much higher obviously though. This isn't a concept, it's a reality and it's going to continue. They are doing no better or worse than the Army and Marines there. How long has it been since you were in the Army? Things have changed quite a bit in the last few years. All branches are cross training these days.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Top
#382248 - 02/14/08 10:19 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
first, let me say that I am enjoying this discussion - it isn't very often that I can discuss this type of thing with somebody who is qualified, and has a background, to discuss it.

before I get into the academic side of the discusion again, let me ask you a clear and direct question - how many physical contacts have you been part of, witnessed or have personal knowledge of between an on duty military person and a non-american military person/citizen where firearms weren't part of the equation? to restate that - physical contacts between on duty military and either terrorist, enemies or foreign national criminals where the violence was carried out with h2h or shock weapons?


I think that we are looking at things from a totally different perspective - I was a light infantryman, then trained infantry, then did some work in protection, and now I am a father and tax payer and general old fart. I am not disputing what the situation is, I am concerned with what should be.

the military is an organization that gets a certain number of people of various abilities, and a certain amount of money, and needs to be prepared to meet all of the security missions of the US for the foreseeable future. that is the perspective that I am looking at here. I have no argument with the facts on the ground, but I would suggest that the fact that blue water sailors are being used for infantry roles in the dessert is not good for the warmaking capacity of the military as a whole. what happens if we are faced with a naval crisis with china or india in 3 years, as an example?


Quote:


Either i'm not explaining this part well or you’re not getting it. I'm not saying to give someone a few hours of training and expect the to perform. This should be an ongoing training where they receive basic fundamentals in boot and follow on schools then continue training throughout their career BUT the "continuing education" doesn't have to be more than a couple of hours every 2-4 months. I'm not talking about teaching people a bunch of fancy moves, i'm talking about basic control techniques that can and will save their lives if something were to happen.






this comes back to my question above - as far as I am concerned, if you can say "I have seen 15 encounters where a cook with 6 hours training kicked the ass of a terrorist who jumped him on the way to the shower" then I have no more argument, and I am wrong. I was invovled with hundreds of contacts with enemy that involved shock weapons - mostly sticks, bottles, knives and rocks, and I would say that the amount of training it would take to make somebody proffetient in h2h to deal with these type of encounters is a lot more than what you are talking about. so I am guenuenlly curious if you have seen people use the training, or just feel that the training has been good enough, even though it hasn't been tried.


and, going back to my very first post - if you are saying "what we need is to train these guys well enough so that nobody can kidnap them" I agree that a few hours training is enough, but I would again say that if all that is keeping your soldiers from being kidnapped is a little h2h training, then the system is fundementally flawed.


Quote:

sorry, I disagree. I do not believe that one can be the best possible ships cook and the best possible perimeter guard, they are fundementally differnt jobs. basically, the navy should be in the business of being the best possible navy and being prepared to meet the naval needs of the US, and not filling in for the army/marines.




I'm not talking about hypothetical situations here or what i THINK should be done, i'm telling you what IS happening. I'll tell you a little secret; i'm one of those ship guys who converted. I was a radar operator and i was very good at my job, i was qualified as Surface Watch Officer and held the position for 3 years as a junior E-5, the position was normally filled by E-7 through O-3. I also trained all the junior officers as they came in. I did VBSS where we conducted hostile boarding on ships in the gulf. I was sent TAD to security as ASF and was one of two ASF members to get patrolman qualified when all the other ASF members were standing posts and doing bag checks. I enjoyed it so much i converted to military police (officially) a little over a year ago and immediately qualified as Watch Commander only 3 weeks after graduation from our academy and prior to being promoted to E-6 where i became the physical security manager for all military personnel and installations in Greece. I did a tour in the desert and will most likely be going back as protective services next year. So yes i was blue water Navy and now i'm a dirt sailor and i excelled at both as have many of the people i know. There is nothing special about me, i consider myself quite average.

Until the year 2000 you couldn't even join the Navy as military police, you had to wait till you were an E-5 to convert. Now we take them straight out of boot camp. By your assertion anyone who converted to military police was either not good at their previous job or isn't good at their new job.






very possibly - I won't dispute how good you are at your job. my personal experience is such that, if I had to chose a squad to ride with, I wouldn't go with somebody with your background, probrably. infantry isn't brain surgury- but I spent months doing things like changing magazines, clearing jammed ammo, falling on my face in the dirt, running uphill carrying weight, etc. 20 years later it is ingrained in my muscle memory. I find it very difficult to believe that that can be achieved in a few weeks.

Quote:

secondly, the effects will be seen in the long term - how will it effect recruiting? how will it effect the mental health of the individuals? these things will come up in 10-20 years. again, I am betting that it will not be favorable.




I'm by no means saying that there aren't going to be side affects to the war, there always are. What does that have to do with a person’s ability to go from one job to another? How does that affect the job that is being done now?






and here is a main difference in how we are viewing it - I am saying "should we be in a situation where we need to teach sailors h2h? is this in the long term best interests of the US?" not, well, these guys need it, so lets teach it to them. by all means, if people need it, teach them, but the bigger question is do we need to have people in a situation where this is going to be the difference between successfuly doing their mission and not doing their mission?


Quote:

thirdly - how is this effecting the US's ability to wage the next war? this is a relavant point.




What does this have to do with military personnel learning H2H? I referenced the FACT that all members of the armed forces today and expect to be in a combat situation and therefore should receive what ever training is useful in helping them survive. What is your point? I could care less about the debate on what is right or wrong with how the military is conducting it troop placement as i stated before. What i'm talking about is the training of the troops, not why they should or shouldn't be there.






sorry - this is fundemental to the discussion. and, looking at how you phrase the question, I think that I might understand part of our disagreement. you say "what does that have to do with military personnel learning h2h?" - I have no problem with people learning h2h, it is good excersize, it is good for the warrior spirit. I have a problem with people using it - if a military person needs to hit an enemy with his hand (or foot, or elbow, etc) there was a [censored] up someplace.

as to the question of how it effects the war making ability of the military - that is a fundemental question. you are saying "me and my friends have been on patrols in the dessert, have worked in technical blue sea positions, and have been shore patrol (or what ever the correct terminology is) and it hasn't adversly effected us" - great. talk to me in 20 years, and we'll have a beer and discuss it. I think that we will see that it adversly effects the ability of combat units to wage war, it will adversly effect the ability of the support units to support war making, and it is probrably causing an encrease in causulties as well as in post traumatic stress. that is what I am talking about, not if one particular radar operator can become a perimator guard or not.


Quote:

I would like very much to see the statistics for how well cooks and drivers are doing with h2h against intruders.




Statistics? I'm referring to things i've SEEN, not what i've read about or seen on the news. It seems like you have an issue with persons outside the Army or Marines doing the same job. I hate to tell you this but while infantry is difficult, it's not brain surgery. As i stated before it's happening and it's not going away regardless of how you feel. Again i'm not trying to debate who should be there or why, only that they are there and should receive sufficient training.






I have no trouble at all with it - except that I don't think it is the proper use of resources or manpower. and, yes, infrantry isn't brain surgery, but there are skills involved that you don't pick up in a few hours training.


Quote:

honestly, trying to have cooks and drivers get themselves into things that they won't be able to handle isn't going to help anybody.




Which is why EVERYONE should get this training so we don't have people in these situations that can't handle it.

Quote:

this was my meaning - what you don't want is to depend on training people so that they can outfight the enemy in what is more or less a fair fight. the basic concept of the military is to prepare people to fight in a way that will allow them to win in a substantial way.




Let's say for the sake of argument that you are 100% correct in the fact that if someone finds themselves in a situation where they need to use H2H techniques that someone screwed up. Why wouldn't we want them to be able to handle the situation as best they can?

I'm not sure if you just have an issue with Navy personnel being in Iraq or where it is your coming from but you need to face facts, its happening. In 2005 - 2006 we had roughly 4000 sailors on IA in Iraq alone. The Army numbers were much higher obviously though. This isn't a concept, it's a reality and it's going to continue. They are doing no better or worse than the Army and Marines there. How long has it been since you were in the Army? Things have changed quite a bit in the last few years. All branches are cross training these days.





[/quote/

I guess my main question is how to you know that they are doing no better or worse that the army and marines there?

when I was in the army - a long long time ago, we had a pretty good idea of the casulty rates of the differnt units - and there was a difference between diffent infantry battalians, let alone when some poor shmuck of a tanker had to do infantry work. I would be genuinly interested in seeing the differences in casulties and in missions between infantry and re-trained navy.


look, go back and read my first post on this subject - if you are saying "these guys could get kidnapped and a little training will keep them safe" then I am all for this level of training. if you are saying "on patrol we need h2h" then I would say "no, if you know how to operate you firearm well enough, and if your patrol leader knows what he is doing, you shouldn't ever need h2h"

Top
#382249 - 02/15/08 09:36 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Globetrotter, one acronym. MOUT. Things can get very close in a MOUT situation, close enough that a rifle is a liability.

Top
#382250 - 02/15/08 10:16 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
sorry

what's mout?
but I agree that there are instances where a rifle is a liability, I am just disputing what the best solution is.

Top
#382251 - 02/16/08 09:52 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Military Operations in Urbanized Terrain. It's very dangerous in a MOUT situation. Easy to have the enemy you didn't have time to see take your weapon.

We're trained to have the strap over one shoulder now, easier to raise in a hurry, but if an enemy gets that close to me, it's not safe for someone else to shoot him. A basic understanding of H2H and CQC is a necessity for combat arms.

Top
#382252 - 02/17/08 04:09 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
fair enough - but this comes down to the very core of the question - is it a better SOP to go to h2h, or to work out ways to shoot?

I was basically a light infantryman - part of my training and service was in "anti-terror" basically what you might call swat. in my day, there were a number of regular army companies that carried swat responsibilites, including the one I served with. as part of that training, we did extensive h2h training, because the idea was that we may be dealing with hostage situations, and fighting inside a bus or an airplane.

but the meat and potatos of my work was basic infantry work - and the vast majority of that was very similar to what is going on in iraq now, urban operations. the sop that we embraced was that closing to h2h in these situations was less preferable, and the best option was to train in always finding a solution at the end of the barrel.

to complicate things, I was also very active in the first palestinian intafadah, and spent months dealing with rioters that we not armed with firearms, and we dealt with them in a less than lethal manner, unless they drew a weapon. which meant a whole different set of SOPSs.

but I would say the very core of the question is - do you train you men to shoot at close range, or spend the same amount of time working on h2h, and what is going to get you better results.

Top
#382253 - 02/17/08 01:29 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
the best results are going to come from being prepared for either situation. Especially if you're going to be the first man in a room when clearing. When dealing with FMJ ammo, which is what the military uses, you have the problem of being too close to just start firing randomly. So, you are put in the position of retaining your weapon and subduing your attacker. Should you see him coming, there is probably a good chance of reacting, even if it's a butt-stroke to the head. But, if he was waiting behind a door, or came up through a crowd, you are basically forced into a H2H situation.

Top
#382254 - 02/17/08 06:29 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
again, I think that this, very specific, discussion has come up a half dozen times over the years. I think that you could say that equally good solutions could come up by either h2h or firearms for both solutions - with the proper training. the main difference, in my mind, is what your team mates are expecting - if your SOP is to go to h2h, then none of your team can help you. if your SOP is to open space and have a team mate respond with fire, then you are screwed if you don't have a funtioning team mate right there and then. I would hesitate to teach both, because then you have too much chance of one person closing to h2h and his friend shooting him in the back.

but that is just my opinion.

in any event - I am not sure, going back to the previous issue - that anybody should be putting navy cooks into a potition where they are clearing rooms.

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga