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#382235 - 02/12/08 05:57 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

soldiers have a limited amount of time for training, any subject that you add to training, basically means removing a different subject. so you have to consider what is fundementally needed for their mission.




Actually we have more time than you think for training, depending on your location. This sort of training doesn't all have to be done in basic or at a follow on school, although it should start there. Even those in theater have down time for training and while i don't feel H2H should take precedence over tac moves, range time or other combat essential training there should be a place for it. There are basic fundamentals to H2H that should be taught early on and revisited at least on a monthly basis. I think there should be more focus on control techniques and weapons retention for anyone who at one point or another in their service carries a weapon. This includes our pier sentries (not military police but usually ships company), auxiliary security forces (personnel assigned to temporary security duties) and our VBSS teams (usually made up of ships company other than MPs). There is time for this training, the problem is billeting qualified instructors for all the locations or qualifying individuals within those locations. Then there is the fact that the Navy doesn't even have a program in place.
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#382236 - 02/12/08 09:55 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Quote:

soldiers have a limited amount of time for training, any subject that you add to training, basically means removing a different subject. so you have to consider what is fundementally needed for their mission.




Actually we have more time than you think for training, depending on your location. This sort of training doesn't all have to be done in basic or at a follow on school, although it should start there. Even those in theater have down time for training and while i don't feel H2H should take precedence over tac moves, range time or other combat essential training there should be a place for it. There are basic fundamentals to H2H that should be taught early on and revisited at least on a monthly basis. I think there should be more focus on control techniques and weapons retention for anyone who at one point or another in their service carries a weapon. This includes our pier sentries (not military police but usually ships company), auxiliary security forces (personnel assigned to temporary security duties) and our VBSS teams (usually made up of ships company other than MPs). There is time for this training, the problem is billeting qualified instructors for all the locations or qualifying individuals within those locations. Then there is the fact that the Navy doesn't even have a program in place.




you are right, military personnel have time on their hands, I meant all of the various resources that are involved in training are limited - I think that pretty much every military has trouble training forces once they have been deployed. getting trainers to them, getting the right facilities, etc is the limiting factor.


there is a fundemental question in whether or not you want soldiers in "sentry" type positions to use less than lethal force. it makes ever encounter a judgment call - is the "enemy" a threat or not, is he to big to physically over power, or not. when I was a sentry, and when I was in charge of sentries, it was pretty simple - if you saw somebody, you told them to stop, if they didn't, you shot in the air, then you shot them. that was that. if it was night, you just shot. simple. I don't know if you want to have a situation where you say "well, if he looks like he isn't a threat, tackle him, if he is over 200 pounds, shoot him"


the IDF - the israeli army, has had serious damage to their warfighting abilities, becuase they have focused too much on non lethal issues over the past 20 years. I really belive that their is a fundemental difference between warfighing and non-lethal capacities, including in the very attitude of the soldiers. the vast majoirty of the military should be invovled in killing people, or in support of those who kill people, in my opinion.

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#382237 - 02/12/08 10:10 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Bush,

the scenario you presented (the first time) was not, "someone runs up to you" it was, "someone runs up to you and grabs your weapon"...there is a difference...

semantics, maybe....

which is why I asked what the ROE would be

Kel
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#382238 - 02/12/08 12:21 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: hunterkell]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Kel, it is something of a semantics issue. There is always the path of travel to consider. Is it a clear path? If so, there's a chance I did shoot him, unless he was shouting for help in a recognizable way, or obviously distressed about something. If he worked his way through a crowd, however, there is the good chance he has my weapon before I know he's up to something. There are thousands of possibilities leading up to me trying to retain my weapon, or restrain someone on the ground.

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#382239 - 02/12/08 01:03 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Kel, it is something of a semantics issue. There is always the path of travel to consider. Is it a clear path? If so, there's a chance I did shoot him, unless he was shouting for help in a recognizable way, or obviously distressed about something. If he worked his way through a crowd, however, there is the good chance he has my weapon before I know he's up to something. There are thousands of possibilities leading up to me trying to retain my weapon, or restrain someone on the ground.





bushi,

how do you carry your weapon? the way I was tought was with the strap around my neck and strong shoulder - effectly if somebody took my weapon and ran, they would be dragging me behind. which doens't mean that it isn't a problem - it means that I am essentially in a weak position if somebody gets ahold of my weapon, they can leverage it against me.

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#382240 - 02/13/08 05:46 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

there is a fundemental question in whether or not you want soldiers in "sentry" type positions to use less than lethal force.




It all depends on what theater they are acting in; do they fall under ROE or law enforcement justifications and escalation of force? For the law enforcement types we are required to use the least amount of force needed to resolve the situation.

Quote:

it makes ever encounter a judgment call - is the "enemy" a threat or not, is he to big to physically over power, or not.




Again different theaters different needs. All sentries not falling under ROE are expected to make that judgment call.

Quote:

when I was a sentry, and when I was in charge of sentries, it was pretty simple - if you saw somebody, you told them to stop, if they didn't, you shot in the air, then you shot them. that was that. if it was night, you just shot. simple.




Biggest problem here is the Navy doesn't issue warning shots unless it's over water, pier side or from a ship, and even then it's only with a crew serve weapon. If the facility you are protecting falls under an ROE that requires you to shoot individuals who fail to identify themselves or slow/stop their approach when directed then by all means shoot. In these situations and locations you are less likely to need H2H training.

Quote:

I don't know if you want to have a situation where you say "well, if he looks like he isn't a threat, tackle him, if he is over 200 pounds, shoot him"




Again not all situations are the same. We double up everything now. All entry control points have two sentries, patrolman have a partner or another patrolman in close proximity to their zone if they need back up. Some one being able to over power you is an issue we always face but we take steps to mitigate that threat. If the subject is hostile and too big to handle alone and your back up isn't on scene you escalate your level of force from restraint techniques to control agents or baton if your area doesn't allow O.C. There are very few places where we are allowed to go straight from "stop and ID yourself" to shooting them and those areas are generally covered by ROE and not a LEOs escalation of force and justifications for deadly force.

Quote:

the IDF - the israeli army, has had serious damage to their warfighting abilities, becuase they have focused too much on non lethal issues over the past 20 years. I really belive that their is a fundemental difference between warfighing and non-lethal capacities, including in the very attitude of the soldiers. the vast majoirty of the military should be invovled in killing people, or in support of those who kill people, in my opinion.




As i said before H2H shouldn't take the place of or restrict the amount of training for tac movement, weapons training or combat training. It should be part of it. Here is the major issue with saying only certain groups of people within the military should get H2H training; regardless of what you are doing today it can change tomorrow. A good example is the Navy's auxiliary security force and individual augmentees, they are members who have been taken from their normal duties and jobs and sent to perform sentry, basic law enforcement and combat duties. These people normally do things like store keeper, barber, radar operator, admin or any of the "non-combat" jobs in the Navy. Yes technically they are all combatants but their specific job function doesn't have them directly involved, that are support for the missions. Normally they would have no need what so ever for H2H and when i first came in it was unheard of to see sailors in the desert unless they were members of security, seabees or spec ops. Today anyone can be called up and sent in. In San Diego the auxiliary security force was activated 100% meaning that for these guys instead of working their normal job every day they were part of security standing sentry duties for a duration of 6 - 18 months, in some cases longer. For those who are doing security or law enforcement state side or in a majority of the over seas commands H2H is vital since restraint techniques are number 2 on our escalation of force. The government tells us we have to attempt to physically subdue someone before we can move on to chemical agents or batons. It's always a judgment call even for the sentries. For those following ROE their response is more cut and dry because they are dealing with a more hostile environment. The reason they should still receive H2H is because eventually they are going to rotate out of the desert eventually and ROE will no longer apply.
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#382241 - 02/13/08 09:58 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
again, and not to get polical, but I would suggest that having sailors doing infantry work in the dessert is a sign that somebody [censored] up.

this is a little philosophical, but the way a military stays great is to use its forces the right way, for the right job, for what they are trained for.

and you might very well be right - it may be that cooks and drivers should be trained in h2h on the chance that they will have to do guard duty in a civillian enviroment, but I am honestly not sure that that is a good use of resources.

as to actual combatants - I am convinced that it is very difficult to have a soldier be at the top of his game in both a warmaking enviroment, and a peacekeeping enviroment. I served in both a "hot" war and a "cold" war - with very different rules of engangment. with all due modesty, I am very well discipled and intellegent, and it was diffcult for me. for many of my collegues and men under me, it was basically impossible. I would not suggest that that is the correct course of action for the US.

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#382242 - 02/13/08 12:42 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
globe,

Good points made. It is difficult if not impossible to be at the absolute top of your game in killing people if you have to learn how to handle them without killing them.

All things being equal however, a bad guy disarming you of your weapon is very reasonably considered a deadly force threat and should be treated as such. Thinking that he is just trying to get it away from you and run away to sell it at the local market is not a rational perspective for a soldier (although I have met many tree huggers who think otherwise ).
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#382243 - 02/13/08 01:13 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Fletch1]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
agreed, it wasn't I who argued differntly. as far as I am concerned, if a person touches a soldier on patrol (or basically, on duty) he is dead meat. it comes down to how to kill him, without hurting anybody who you don't intent to hurt.

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#382244 - 02/13/08 07:44 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
It's dependant on where you are and what "rules" you fall under. If you’re on foot patrol in the desert and someone tries to take your weapon then your course of action based on your ROE may be to take them out. State side on the other hand if someone tries to take your weapon although it may be obvious what his intention is but in many cases you are still expected to handle the situation without deadly force. For example if i'm in San Diego on a call and an individual manages to get his hand on my side arm and tries to remove it but i am able to prevent him from getting it, under your logic he should be shot. Now regardless of his intent i have just shot an unarmed man. My partner couldn't shoot him while he was trying to get it because i'm too close.

Quote:

again, and not to get polical, but I would suggest that having sailors doing infantry work in the dessert is a sign that somebody [censored] up.




How is that? Would you rather have sailors continue to be under utilized on ships and shore stations while the Marines and Army have to double up on deployments? This isn't a matter of "should" they be there, they are there and doing a good job. It's not because someone "f"ed up, it's because someone on the top end wanted to "equal out" the services a bit. There is very little going on these days at sea. It's not like the old days when we were at war with countries that actually had a navy they could speak of. Today’s military is being trained to be more versatile and they are. It is difficult for people to go from an combative mind set to a peace keeping mind set but the simple fact is it's happening and the majority of the people i see are handling it good. I personally would prefer to see my rate split into two branches, a LEO side and an infantry side but that's not looking like it's going to happen.

Quote:

and you might very well be right - it may be that cooks and drivers should be trained in h2h on the chance that they will have to do guard duty in a civillian enviroment, but I am honestly not sure that that is a good use of resources.




There is no "chance" about it, The IA program has been in place for about 2-3 years and the ASF program (formerly 9545) has been in place much longer. I didn't mention it because i thought it was a good idea, i mentioned it because these people ARE being put in these situations so it's justifiable that everyone in the military should receive this sort of training. No matter what theater you are operating in there are going to come a time when you are in the position that you will need to put someone down without the use of a weapon, it's a simple fact and it's not because someone screwed up. This war isn't being fought in a place where you know who your enemy is and even though we are in a hostile environment we can't point a gun at everyone we come in contact with while on patrol and maintaining a reactionary gap in a city full of people isn't always going to happen.

Regardless of what people think about who should be doing what job and where the simple fact is regardless of what your job is in the military you can find yourself in these situations and they should be trained to handle it. An hour or two of basic control and manipulation techniques every 2 - 4 weeks isn't going to detract from anyone’s training or proficiency in other aspects of their job.
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