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#382225 - 02/09/08 08:53 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

basically, if you are in a situation where you need hand to hand in the military, somebody has [censored] up.




Not really. Military police should definitely get extensive training in control techniques and weapons retention at the least. It's not always policy of the military to shoot first nor is it practical.
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#382226 - 02/09/08 11:05 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
actaully, I'd agree - the military police and protective services really being the only exceptions that I can think of, though. even then, I am guessing that if a military policeman has to hit somebody with his hand, then it isn't exactly a successful mission - I would guess that various non lethal weapons and or restraints would be prefered.

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#382227 - 02/09/08 02:56 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
globetrotter, what do I do, as a soldier, if someone runs up and grabs my weapon. They didn't present any lethal threat prior to grabbing my weapon, and I probably did try to shove him off, but the end result is he has hold of my weapon and is trying to take it from me.

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#382228 - 02/09/08 05:16 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
well, this is pretty much the definition of a [censored] up, isn't it? and what should happen is that the guy next to you in line should shoot him, to give you a clear cut answer, but of course these things are never so clear cut.

I'm not saying that these situations never happen, or can't happen, I am saying that they are a very small part of what soldiers do. and, while I don't know exactly how the US military works, if you are alone, with a rifle, and in a situation where somebody can grab your weapon, there was a [censored] up someplace in the situation.

like I said earlier, I think that all soldiers should get some basic self defense type of training, and this would fall into that sphrere, I would say - in the same way that a female transport clerk could be attacked and should have some skills at protecting herself.

but, let me put it this way - is it better to put in 8 hours of training in working on how to open a gap and shoot somebody who tries to grab your weapon, or 8 hours in learning h2h? honestly, I'm not sure.

a friend of mine, who was a platoon leader, had some idiot try to grab one of his guys weapons and run. the idiot wouldn't stop, so the other guys beat him to death with their rifles - nobody felt that they had a safe shot. he wouldn't let go before until they hit him fatally.

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#382229 - 02/10/08 01:23 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

well, this is pretty much the definition of a [censored] up, isn't it? and what should happen is that the guy next to you in line should shoot him, to give you a clear cut answer, but of course these things are never so clear cut.

I'm not saying that these situations never happen, or can't happen, I am saying that they are a very small part of what soldiers do. and, while I don't know exactly how the US military works, if you are alone, with a rifle, and in a situation where somebody can grab your weapon, there was a [censored] up someplace in the situation.

like I said earlier, I think that all soldiers should get some basic self defense type of training, and this would fall into that sphrere, I would say - in the same way that a female transport clerk could be attacked and should have some skills at protecting herself.

but, let me put it this way - is it better to put in 8 hours of training in working on how to open a gap and shoot somebody who tries to grab your weapon, or 8 hours in learning h2h? honestly, I'm not sure.

a friend of mine, who was a platoon leader, had some idiot try to grab one of his guys weapons and run. the idiot wouldn't stop, so the other guys beat him to death with their rifles - nobody felt that they had a safe shot. he wouldn't let go before until they hit him fatally.




In this day and age of "Peace Keeping" missions, it should be noted that our soldiers and marines are being expected to work in close quarters, intermingling with an enemy who remains covert and indistinguishable from friendlies all the way up to the moment that they decide to attack.

With this in mind, we should see that H2H could be of critical importance.
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#382230 - 02/11/08 08:52 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Fletch1]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Bush,

I would kill him plain and simple.

If he is trying to steal your weapon then he is going to one day use that weapon against Americans or sell it to someone who is.

What do your rules of engagement say about this type of scenario?

K
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Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#382231 - 02/11/08 10:43 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: hunterkell]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Bush,

I would kill him plain and simple.

If he is trying to steal your weapon then he is going to one day use that weapon against Americans or sell it to someone who is.

What do your rules of engagement say about this type of scenario?

K





I'm guessing that the question wasn't whether or not to kill him - it is obvious that he should be killed. the question is how to go about it if he is holding your rifle, and very possibly controling you via the strap.

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#382232 - 02/11/08 10:47 AM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: Fletch1]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Quote:

well, this is pretty much the definition of a [censored] up, isn't it? and what should happen is that the guy next to you in line should shoot him, to give you a clear cut answer, but of course these things are never so clear cut.

I'm not saying that these situations never happen, or can't happen, I am saying that they are a very small part of what soldiers do. and, while I don't know exactly how the US military works, if you are alone, with a rifle, and in a situation where somebody can grab your weapon, there was a [censored] up someplace in the situation.

like I said earlier, I think that all soldiers should get some basic self defense type of training, and this would fall into that sphrere, I would say - in the same way that a female transport clerk could be attacked and should have some skills at protecting herself.

but, let me put it this way - is it better to put in 8 hours of training in working on how to open a gap and shoot somebody who tries to grab your weapon, or 8 hours in learning h2h? honestly, I'm not sure.

a friend of mine, who was a platoon leader, had some idiot try to grab one of his guys weapons and run. the idiot wouldn't stop, so the other guys beat him to death with their rifles - nobody felt that they had a safe shot. he wouldn't let go before until they hit him fatally.




In this day and age of "Peace Keeping" missions, it should be noted that our soldiers and marines are being expected to work in close quarters, intermingling with an enemy who remains covert and indistinguishable from friendlies all the way up to the moment that they decide to attack.

With this in mind, we should see that H2H could be of critical importance.





not to be argumentative, but I am not so sure it is clean cut. is the solution to arm soldiers with collapsable batons and train them in the use? is the soluttion to arm all soldiers on patrol with handguns and train them in the use? is the solution to work on better training for using a rifle in extremly close quarters? or is the solution to train more in h2h.

soldiers have a limited amount of time for training, any subject that you add to training, basically means removing a different subject. so you have to consider what is fundementally needed for their mission.

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#382233 - 02/11/08 01:47 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: globetrotter]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Globe,

In my mind there is no, "how do I do it"; it simply is done. A 1000 different scenarios can be discussed and what ifed....the point is it has to be in your mind and once it is; you do it.

Repetitive training of course gives one the tools; the training and the mindset is the weapon.

K

I've had exposure to this type of scenario...I was lucky I had one of those big mag lights in my other hand when it happened, or instead of getting struck on top of the noggin, the suspect would have been shot.

But it began with the mindset and the will to act; not with a specific plan.

To me it is not obvious to kill the assailant, that's why I asked what the rules of engagement were...

Soldiers and LEOs have different sets of R.O.E.s, a lot of it depends on what the situation is....

Kel
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#382234 - 02/11/08 08:28 PM Re: Martial Arts in the Military? [Re: hunterkell]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Actually Kel, our ROE are not so different anymore. That's why I brought up that point. A soldier that shoots someone who was just running up on them, with no other reason to expect violence, will end up in Ft. Leavenworth.

And someone else shooting him for me might not be the answer either. The struggle might not leave a clear shot for him. That's why H2H is becoming so important, and MAC is evolving.

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