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#381778 - 04/08/08 04:49 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Stormdragon]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

The fact is the issue is people not guns (of course we all know that but sometimes I think we lose sight of that fact). Taking away guns will not do any good ultimately as then people would just get better with knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands, I mean if you want to hurt another person you'll find a way to do it and very effectively at that. Look at prison life




actually, that is a good example - I read about an assult last week where 4 gang members attacked a guard with home made knives. he was hurt, but came out alive. so, lets say 4 career criminals attack somebody outside of prison, what is his survival rate? guns do make a big difirence in the abilty to carry out violence successfuly.

Neko - yeah, that would be a huge waste of ammo.

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#381779 - 04/08/08 09:57 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Laff773 wrote - Here is the question. Would making guns illegal make it harder for these kids to get their hands on them and commit crimes like Virginia Tech. or make it harder for people to defend themselves against it?



Me - I wasn't saying that you wanted guns illegal I was just giving a responce to your hypothetical question. It was a good one in a perfect world. We have laws in place to prevent the insane and criminals from buying guns they are not presused until after the fact unless something on the Computer matches up, which work if the info is available. I agree with the training issue the CCL training is just a familarity course. And the VPO (Victim protection order) is ineffective because it doesn't really protect the victim it enrages the stalking culprit. The problem is how do we make them proactive.


StromDragon very pronounced analyzation and accurate its the mind of man that we should fear not the tool he uses.

Globetrotter as I mention I like the way you guys do things there I just would hate to give up too much. Seems like it coul hurt practice gathering brass to show that you need more. How do they regulate reloaders I guess powder and projectiles are limited or signed for?

B. Franklin stated "Those who give up Rights for Freedom deserves Niether".

I swichted (due to typo) the letters in "who" it read "how" in the 1st post, spd typing from work. pardon.


Edited by Neko456 (04/08/08 09:59 AM)
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#381780 - 04/09/08 01:31 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:


Globetrotter as I mention I like the way you guys do things there I just would hate to give up too much. Seems like it coul hurt practice gathering brass to show that you need more. How do they regulate reloaders I guess powder and projectiles are limited or signed for?






good question, I never knew anybody in israel who loaded their own, I'm not sure how it would work.

but remember also that all of the ranges are built to make it easy to collect your shells. as a matter of fact, most ranges sell ammo, so it is more an issue of buying what you have fired that day.

i guess the idea is just to make it difficult to stockpile ammo.

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#381781 - 04/20/08 01:59 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: globetrotter]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Interesting conversation and I wish I knew and had the answers as well. I am one of those converts to Pro-gun rights rather than not and have had lengthy 'talks' with my brother who describes himself more anti-gun than not.

BTW, I am all for training and responsibility, but Globe you talked about the responsibilty of the owner even if a weapon was stolen. I have to take some exception to this since by extension you would have to apply this to other things. If a car was stolen and used in a hit and run accident, would this then be the responsibility of the real owner of the car? If a pyromaniac steals gas and a Bic lighter from a hardware store, does his intent and willingness to do harm with these things automatically transfer to the legal owners of these items, despite their best abilities to keep them from being stolen?

What you have left out of the responsibility equation is that the hand that weilds the tool should take the brunt of its responsible use, not be vouched for completely by those who have taken measures to keep them from unauthorized hands. I am not saying guns shouldn't be locked up or stored properly or that training not be mandated, but to maintain an inextricably tied leash on something's safe use goes against the intent and willingness of criminals to disabuse that use by stealing these things.

I also think there should be a real evaluation of the intended use of firearms with regards to defense and violence. The key words being focused on the intent for violence. I had read a story a few weeks ago about a bank VP under investigation for embezzlement and then who proceeds to take baseball bats to his entire family and drives into a overpass pylon. Yes, killed his entire family with baseball bats and then kills himself.

The intent to do violence and harm, regardless of tool really has to be examined. Guns may offer evil, expedient opportunities to some, but to my mind do not change those intents to do harm if not there. Other tools, sans the availability of guns, will be at their disposal in lieu of firearms and you will still have violence.

I really do wish I had some answers, but I don't....

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#381782 - 04/20/08 10:18 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: fileboy2002]
karate_popo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 154
Loc: NYC
I don't know about other states, but in nys, you have to be fingerprinted and a background check done in order to carry a gun if you are not already an LEO.. as far as keeping the illegal guns off the streets, i believe it will be something that is always around.. i support gun control of course, but they can only control it soo much...
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#381783 - 04/21/08 12:55 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: butterfly]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

, but Globe you talked about the responsibilty of the owner even if a weapon was stolen. I have to take some exception to this since by extension you would have to apply this to other things.






not really - I think that this applies to tools that are intended for a certain use. sure, lets say that if you make a boat that is very very fast and has long range, and somebody steals it and uses it to smuggle drugs, then you have some responsiblity for that, too. that makes sense.

but having firearms around is, by defnition, dangerous. it should be totally clear to people what their reponsibility should be.


here is why I think that - I have no issue with a guy who gets a shotgun or a handgun for his house, locks it in a small safe and trains with it regularly. I do, however, have a great deal of a probrlem with people who have handguns or firearms around the house and don't secure them properly, with people who have high velocity weapons in urban settings, or people who want to have a collection of 25 military style firearms. if you want to have weapons, you need to first think about how you are going to secure them.

Quote:


but to maintain an inextricably tied leash on something's safe use goes against the intent and willingness of criminals to disabuse that use by stealing these things.






I think that the "leash" is usefull - I don't own a gun. I have had several that were my reponsiblity, though. if I didn'te it with me, I spent time and effort thinking about how I was going to secure it. when I was vacation, I made sure that it was in a secure place, for instance. that is what I expect from gun owners,

Quote:


read a story a few weeks ago about a bank VP under investigation for embezzlement and then who proceeds to take baseball bats to his entire family and drives into a overpass pylon. Yes, killed his entire family with baseball bats and then kills himself.





yes, but the reason this sticks in your head is because of how rare it is.

last week, in a town outside of new york city, there was a gang riot with almost 100 participants. gang members from one town attacked gang members from another, using knives, axes and baseball bats. not a single person was killed. if a gun had been introduced to that equation, there may have been 10 gang members and a half dozen innocent passersby killed.

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#381784 - 04/24/08 11:52 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: globetrotter]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Globe, I understand some of the things you are talking about and the consequences of violence. But I also think it is a matter of perspective that is also involved here. That those whom I associate with are competent, law-abiding individuals that I could invite to my home for dinner without fear. That the people I personally know that are gun owners, re-enactors, shooting sports enthusiasts, and hunters (some of whom are relatives) are not the individuals that leap to mind when you or others may immediately think of guns and gun owners. Not everyone is running around with camo pants on sporting the latest in laser-guided bullet technology. But that's what I see. Good, nice people who train with and use guns for different reasons. But none of which has been to do intentional harm to another individual without life and death provocation involved in such a decision.

And yes, I can understand that a bunch of thugs beating on each other with baseball bats and knives perhaps makes less indiscriminate violence. These are not the people who, btw, are probably upstanding, law-abiding citizens buying their guns from authorized dealers who have mandatory background checks and waiting periods (this latter depending on where you live).

I am, however, concerned that the same group of ruffians sporting baseball bats and knives decides to break into someone's home while the homeowner is left contesting that break-in with nothing more than a rolled up newspaper.

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#381785 - 06/03/08 01:19 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
Naaman Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 1
This thread is quite long, and I'm sure my point has been touched on already, but just to add a "+1" to the list of folks that believe banning guns is futile, all that would happen would be that law abiding citizens would be easier victims.

It doesn't take a gun to kill someone. It takes INTENT. After all, Cain killed Able LONG before anyone had any concept of what a gun was. Murder is a much older concept than guns.

Anyone who wanted to could kill another person with their bare hands. The difference is, if we're only using bare hands, then the "vicitm" at least has a fighting chance. Now, if the victim had a gun, he would have a fighting chance against an armed criminal.

As for killing with hands... if we ban guns, might as well ban martial arts, too. And kitchen knives for that matter.

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