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#381768 - 03/05/08 10:26 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

Do you think it is possible to believe something is morally wrong yet recognize that criminalizing it is bad public policy? That is what we are really talking about here: criminalization. The "pro-life" movement is really a pro-criminalization movement.




I agree completely. The thing is it's all a matter of perspective. Some see it as their choice while others see it as murder. All i was stating was a personal opinion of what i think the policy should be based on. That i feel there should be stipulations vice a flat out legal ban.

Quote:

Making abortion illegal will not stop people from having them. People in the US had abortions before it became letgal; all over the world, wherever abortion is illegal, people still have abortions.




Making ANYTHING illegal never stops it from happening. I personally feel it's better to have laws in place to help govern these activities than to simply throw my hands in the air and say forget it. How does NOT having laws against these issues make things better?

Quote:

I alwasy want to ask: how much prison time would you have a women aerve because she got an abortion?




I'm sure that would depend on the aspects of that law and how it's applied in that state. If it's ruled that abortion is murder and that law is broken then i would expect the punishment to fit within the stated guidelines for committing murder of any kind unless separate punishment criteria are set specifically for abortions.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#381769 - 03/31/08 04:43 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: animematt]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
All I can do is quote the great "Larry the Cable Guy": "If guns kill people then I can blame my pencil for spelling errors."
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#381770 - 04/01/08 10:18 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Laf,
I find it hard to correlate armed self defense of you or your person from mortal danger to a purposeful murder of an innocent child in the womb.

Quote:

Making ANYTHING illegal never stops it from happening.




That's very true, but the reason we make things illegal is to make some effort through the legal system to stop the damage of the particular action in question from harming society. If laws weren't in force to stop murder, theft, assault, etc. we'd live in a constant state of chaos.

The danger from disarming the society is that it leaves people less able to protect themselves. If abortion were outlawed, it would simply mean that more children would be given up to adoption... hardly a moral equivalent to each other.

As you said, even if guns were outlawed, someone would find a way to either acquire one or make one... and in a "perfect storm" scenario like that, you'd find the recurring instances of what happened at Virginia Tech.

The Army surplus store here in town used to have Tee-shirts that said "don't run from the snipers... you'll only die tired", and that same kind of thinking can be applied to creating an environment where one bozo with a weapon can wreak havoc on the community that's disarmed. I've said it repeatedly that my feeling is like the one armed sheriff's deputy in "Unforgiven"... "I don't want to get killed for a lack of shootin' back"...

As our society continues to fracture, and the groups in it tend to get more acrimonious toward each other, it's becoming more important to be ready to protect yourself today more than ever before. The old days of going out in the parking lot and "duke'n it out" with somebody are over... now they pull a gun or knife, or have ten of their friends jumping in on you... and it's getting worse instead of better.

Personally, I can control my anger and keep things limited to words... but LOTS of people out there these days can't do that... and I'd rather be armed and ready, than dead and sorry. Firearms are not toys... and they have consequences, just like abortion has consequences, especially if they're used indiscriminately. People who carry them have to be able to restrain themselves, and to understand when the danger is enough to draw them out.

Not everybody has that temperament, and not everybody has the restraint... which is why the CCW laws are very definite and strict in most states. I carry a gun because carrying a cop is too much work... and they're heavy... plus, it pi$$es off their bosses when they want them doing something else.

Thomas Jefferson said "the beauty of the Second Amendment is that we will not need that right until the government tries to take it from us". It's interesting that an M-16 in the hands of a soldier is an "outdated, steaming pile of excrement" as a weapon, but in a civilian's hands, it is a destruction-dealing death sprayer that's assumed to be pointed at a parking lot full of toddlers and soccer moms.

... and it just goes on and on from there...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#381771 - 04/04/08 04:29 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: wristtwister]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

I find it hard to correlate armed self defense of you or your person from mortal danger to a purposeful murder of an innocent child in the womb.




At what point does a fetus become a child? At conception, when developed enough to survive outside the womb? You are more than welcome to your opinion on this as is everyone. My personal opinion is that if the fetus can not survive outside the womb, even with some support, then under certain circumstances it's acceptable to me. I mentioned this before, for the most part rape and molestation/incest cases are pretty much the only things i feel are acceptable reasons for abortion and only in the early stages of the pregnancy (3 months or less). By the way i'm not the one who brought up abortion JAMJTX is and i don't recall trying to compare the two, i was only commenting on an issue mentioned earlier.

Quote:

That's very true, but the reason we make things illegal is to make some effort through the legal system to stop the damage of the particular action in question from harming society.




I agree and know full well why we have laws. But what i said is true, laws don't STOP criminal activity. They only provide us with guidance and the ability to punish those who break them.

Quote:

The danger from disarming the society is that it leaves people less able to protect themselves.




I disagree, as someone said earlier there are other countries out there that have such gun bans and their murder and in some cases their crime rate are lower per capita than ours. Here is the thing, no one can say one way or another if a gun ban would be bad for this country. There are too many variables; it's all a matter of opinion. You can't compare one countries success or failure with a law against another because they are culturally different. What works in one culture might not work or have the same effect in another.

Quote:

As you said, even if guns were outlawed, someone would find a way to either acquire one or make one... and in a "perfect storm" scenario like that, you'd find the recurring instances of what happened at Virginia Tech.




Here is the question. Would making guns illegal make it harder for these kids to get their hands on them and commit crimes like Virginia Tech. or make it harder for people to defend themselves against it? You stated making guns illegal would leave people defenseless but here we are, guns are legal and easily accessible but yet all those people were still unable to defend themselves. The simple truth is having a gun in your possession doesn't always equal being safe.

As i said before i am all for people being licensed to carry. All i want is strict laws on issue and training.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#381772 - 04/04/08 06:30 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:


As i said before i am all for people being licensed to carry. All i want is strict laws on issue and training.




pretty much my feeling - and I'd like poeple to have legal responsiblity for their firearms from the time they purchase them until they are sold legally or destroyed in a controleed enviroment - if a gun is stolen or used accidentally, the gun owner should be resposnbile financially and legally for the harm caused.


I have no desire to see the population disarmed, I would like to see them armed more responsibly.

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#381773 - 04/04/08 05:10 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: globetrotter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
In Israel are regular citizens (not soldiers or police) allowed to carry weapons? I've heard both yes and no.
Anyway, I think the government should give everyone a high powered assault weapon and extensive tactical training with said weapon after going through the standard security checks. The bad guys can find their own but everyone else (including grandma next door) gets one for free and free training. No more crime with firearms.
You guys here about the 3 Army Rangers who pulled off a near perfect bank robbery in Seattle? Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Anyone see Hot Fuzz? haha
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#381774 - 04/06/08 04:10 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Stormdragon]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

In Israel are regular citizens (not soldiers or police) allowed to carry weapons? I've heard both yes and no.





if you have a reason - that is, you can show that you need one, and/or you served in a good unit in the army or as an officer, you can get one gun. it is very very difficult to get more than one. you need to go to a range and re-qualify every few years, and you need to account for your ammo - you return your brass when you buy new ammo so that you can't stockpile. you have a great deal of legal responsiblity for any damage done with your gun

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#381775 - 04/07/08 09:37 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Laf7773 -Here is the question. Would making guns illegal make it harder for these kids to get their hands on them and commit crimes like Virginia Tech. or make it harder for people to defend themselves against it? You stated making guns illegal would leave people defenseless but here we are, guns are legal and easily accessible but yet all those people were still unable to defend themselves. The simple truth is having a gun in your possession doesn't always equal being safe.


That's a good question and in hindsight seems like a reasonable solution. But there is something wrong with the thought process, you double smash the innocent citizen.

You should never take rights away from the law abiding citizen in order to Stop criminal acts. If you follow that logic you are punishing the innocent for crime that the guilty commit. There are untold stories of how law abiding citizens that saved/protected someone or protect family with the use of a firearm. Remember the tool is only as good as the person handling it.

I remember Hilter took weapons away from the citizen before he started his tryantcail reign. I remember reading during the cold war Russian's Prime Minister Crewshulzt (<=sp) in the 60s-70s stating that dropping troops by parachute on USA would be sucicide because of the armed citizen of the USA. Thats Old news but just something to learn from history.

As for the Vigina Tech situation there were sign before it happen like most existing preventive measures in USA, we only apply them after the fact. This guy had a problem and it wasn't dealt with.

Ben Franklin stated "Those how will trade rights for freedom, desire niether".

You can't punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.


Globetrotter - I like the way they make the citizens responcibile over there, but I'd have to give up 1000's of rounds of various caliber. I reload my own jewles of ammo. So I agree with Franklin.


Edited by Neko456 (04/07/08 09:42 AM)

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#381776 - 04/07/08 10:17 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The fact is the issue is people not guns (of course we all know that but sometimes I think we lose sight of that fact). Taking away guns will not do any good ultimately as then people would just get better with knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands, I mean if you want to hurt another person you'll find a way to do it and very effectively at that. Look at prison life or the violent crime rate in Australia and the UK, places that I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) do not allow civilians to own guns. They have nearly as much assault and battery's and homicides as here in the U.S and that number isn't improving with stricter gun control laws. I've checked out some of the statistics which shows that as well as talked to good friends who live in those areas and even members of this forum. The problem in my opinion is more directly related to substance abuse, and psychological problems. We should be focusing there I think. In my old town most people had a few guns (95% of the populace or better) and they had zero violent crimes each year (except for 1 or 2 yrs-granted the town has 5,000 people).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#381777 - 04/08/08 12:29 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

That's a good question and in hindsight seems like a reasonable solution. But there is something wrong with the thought process, you double smash the innocent citizen.




Who said i wanted guns to be illegal? I'm pretty sure i've stated repeatedly that i think they should be legal but with stricter control and training. From your statement previous to the one quoted about VA Tech. i was simply pointing out that just because guns are legal doesn't mean citizens are automatically going to be safe. Stricter regulations on gun control as far as ownership, responsibility for your weapons can help quell these types of occurrences. It will still happen but there are more opportunities to recognize a situation in the making.

Quote:

You can't punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.





Read my post again, this isn't what i was saying.

Quote:

As i said before i am all for people being licensed to carry. All i want is strict laws on issue and training.




Look familiar?
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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