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#381748 - 02/07/08 08:57 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Kimo,

Please use simpler words to explain your opinion. Lacking a Juris Doctorate I am not trained in law or the specific words that are used to convey certain ideas in that arena.

Remember, when having a discussion the point is to COMMUNICATE ideas, so it helps to keep your target audience in mind...

I disagree (I think) with your assumption that the states can make laws restricting constitutional laws.

After all, isn't that what makes us all "Americans", otherwise, we would be nothing moere than a bunch of independent countries with a loose affiliation (which is what we basically were before 1787).

Thanks for simplfying,
remember, I'm just a POPO with some elementary knowledge of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.....

Kel

ALSO, Miller is touted by both sides as supporting their stance.

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#381749 - 02/07/08 09:59 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Remember, when having a discussion the point is to COMMUNICATE ideas, so it helps to keep your target audience in mind...





Sorry I wasn't trying to bury the message in double speak, and I do understand there is disagreement on the issue.

What I posted was a quote from the Miller ruling to rebut what you had said earlier.

Basically, it's my opinion that the 2nd amendment is not meant to allow citizens to own guns, it's meant to allow citizens to own guns as it pertains to being a part of an organized miltia, you can't take part of the amendment of out context, law is written in complete sentences for a reason and needs to be considered in it's entirety.

That said, it's my reading of the Law and on that there is disageement. Either way the real world fact is Americans have the right to bear arms, and I see no benefit in revoking that right. Regulate it a bit, sure but revoke. No way.
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#381750 - 02/07/08 10:52 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Ok,

Agreed to sorta disagree

(shakes hands)

Kel
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#381751 - 02/07/08 12:04 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
If, when you say "we kill babaies we do not want," you are referring to legalized abortion, keep three things in mind:

1) Approximately 90% of US counties have no abortion providers. While a right in law, it is, for many women, barely a right in fact any more.

2) Probably the biggest source of terrorist violence in the US for the past 30 years--measured not in body count but in the sheer number of shootings, bombings, acts of arson, etc--has been the anti-abortion movement.

3) Countries where abortion is safe and legal--e.g. most of Western Europe--have far lower rates of violence than the US. In Brazil, where abortion remains illegal, shop owners routinely hire thugs to massacre street children.

I don't mean to get into an extended debate about abortion rights. But while I agree US culture has a good deal to do with our high muder rate, I think your example of abortion as symptom of the problem is mistaken.

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#381752 - 02/07/08 12:39 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Good catch File, I missed that in Jams post.

Here is the way I look at it (wrongly or rightly):

Ultimately it is the female's body. She has to live with the ramifications of that birth, whether they be abortion/adoption/rearing. I am not comfortable telling a female what she can and cannot do with her body.

If an unborn child is alive (and when I write "alive" I mean a soul) and it is a sin (from a christian perspective)to have an abortion, then that is between her and the Man upstairs and sooner or later she will have to answer to him (not me) for her actions.

I think maybe we are kinda getting off topic tho....

Kel
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#381753 - 02/07/08 01:50 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm only going to touch lightly on the abortion issue as i don't want to stir the pot and steer the thread farther off topic. I personally feel that women should have the right to choose to an extent and only to a certain point.

1. The pregnancy was the result of a rape or molestation.
2. The child is not far enough into term to survive on its own if "separated" from the mother.
3. The pregnancy happened despite steps to prevent a pregnancy...i.e. had her tubes tied or other forms of "permanent" birth control but it was unsuccessful.

I don't feel a woman who chooses to have unprotected sex, even when drunk, should be allowed to have an abortion. You know what can happen, take steps to avoid it. The problem i see with this would be some women getting pregnant after a one night stand or an affair then crying rape because they don't want to carry the child to term. I also don't think children should be aborted after a certain stage of development.
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#381754 - 02/07/08 02:08 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

2. The child is not far enough into term to survive on its own if "separated" from the mother.




I don't think this can be a useful point to reference. Science has made possible the survival of earlier and earlier term fetuses. It's going to be a moving target as science advances, to the point where abortion would become defacto illegal.
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#381755 - 02/07/08 02:39 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: MattJ]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I was referring more to those who could survive with little or no life support. I do fully understand and agree this area is very hard to "pin point".
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#381756 - 02/07/08 04:23 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

. The pregnancy was the result of a rape or molestation.





The problem with attempting to take a moral view on a womans right to chose is WHO are you protecting by making abortion illegal? Assumably you are protecting the baby, not punishing the mother.

If thats the case, it's not the baby's fault how it was conceived so rape or incest should not be factors in determining whether or not it should be protected.

This is a tough issue, when does a cell go from part of a woman, to an individual? Not really any good answers.
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#381757 - 02/07/08 09:21 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I'm not a LEO, and I'll be the last to say that this discussion isn't interesting... But when all's said and done, it's a moot point, 'cause the genie is well and truly out of the bottle!
There're so many guns out there that you can ban them all today and they'd still be a dime a dozen. Ditto for ammo.
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