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#381728 - 02/05/08 06:31 PM What do the LEO on here think about gun control.
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
The other day I got a phone call from someone collecting for the FOP and I asked them what they thought about gun control. The caller said the FOP asa whole supported gun control but that opinions amongst LEO officers varied on the question. What do some of the LEO on here think about gun control?

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#381729 - 02/05/08 11:15 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
"Gun control means hitting your target."

"I miss my X, but my aim is improving."


Edited by BrianS (02/05/08 11:15 PM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#381730 - 02/05/08 11:41 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: BrianS]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Some people should not have access to guns. I have dealt with some of them on a professional level and in spite of their background checks and numerous gun safety classes, they were just plain wacky. If guns were outlawed, these guys would find ways to possess guns anyway just because of a fanatical desire to be "armed".

These days, any criminal can get ahold of a stolen firearm and use it to commit a crime against a citizen. To say that these "citizens" don't have a right to take steps to protect themselves is a bold statement to make. Everyone wants a safer society, but some want it safer so they can be a bigger predator.
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#381731 - 02/06/08 09:09 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Fletch1]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
I support gun control pretty much as it is.

Certain people should not be allowed to own guns, however, for the most part, I think people should be allowed to have one for self defense (if they have attended the appropriate classes of course).

Fletch is right, IF someone wants a firearm they will get one, no matter what.

Also, there are plenty of sportsmen that own guns for skeet, trap, hunting, or just letting off steam.

It is a constitutional amendment after all.

K

PLUS, usually the people that call to ask for money for FOP, PBA etc, are not officers...they are simply people that are hired to make cold calls (at least in the area where I am at).
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#381732 - 02/06/08 10:56 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'd have no problem with a majority of the population having a gun provided they have had training in the proper use and care of the weapon. An all out ban on guns isn't going to solve anything other than making more people victims. In some cases the knowledge that citizens of a certain community are likely to have a gun in there home deters criminals from attempting B&E, but not always. I don't see the need for the common person to have a full auto assault rifle but there are those who would love to own a few. Owning one or two guns is one thing but the guys who feel the need to own 15-20 guns starts to raise an eyebrow. The people i'm referring to are the "collectors" who instead of having a variety of guns have 10 of the same gun, say semi-auto M4s. Here almost everyone has a gun and most aren't registered and almost all of them are either shotguns or AK47s. It's tradition here for them to shoot them in the air during celebrations. I couldn't begin to say how many times i've been woken up in the middle of the night by gun fire next door. I'm used to it now but it would have been nice if someone would have told me about it when i checked in.
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#381733 - 02/06/08 11:22 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
If I was the great and powerful OZ, I would ban all guns from the planet. Personally the fact that humans still need to shoot other humans show how much further humanity needs to go.

BUT since I am not the great and powerful OZ, I think it's onlt reasonable to attempt to prevent automatic and larger weapons. Of course we will fail to some degree but to attempt to control hand guns and shotguns etc...is just unrealistic, too much a part of the culure at this point.

I am about to buy my first gun, not because I have any desire to have one but because when society breaks down I don't want to be the only guy without one.

I also agree we should force people to get certified and trained in firearm use and handling, we do it with cars we should do it for guns.

I also believe that the reading of the 2nd amendment does not give the right to own guns, BUT we as a society have accepted that definition so there is no point in trying to un ring that bell.

I am not a LEO but have a few in my family, they to a person recommed peope NOT own guns.
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#381734 - 02/06/08 12:30 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
All very interesting points. Let me touch on one more thing.

An arguement one often hears from gun control opponents is that "if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them." Some of you have made similar points--i.e. that people with few scruples and plenty of determination can usually manage to get their hands on a firearm.

One of the counterpoints I have heard to this view is that it assumes there is a special class of people--"outlaws"--who, for some reason, have priviledged access to firearms. This, the arguement goes, is not true.

Supposedly, the overwhelming majority of guns used in crimes entered ciriculation because somebody somewhere along the line bought them legally. Legally purchased firearms then get sold, stolen, lost, etc. and end up being used in crimes.

The bottom line: if guns were not available legally, would they be harder to get illegally?

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#381735 - 02/06/08 12:39 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

The bottom line: if guns were not available legally, would they be harder to get illegally?






Harder, yes but you would also create an even larger black market then already exists.
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#381736 - 02/06/08 12:58 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Guns can come from anywhere and in prison they are even made. It's not hard to do.

There are soooo many out there now.....it'd be a tough battle.

Again, tho; it is a right granted by the constitution.

K
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#381737 - 02/06/08 01:36 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I think that the point, though: Is the "black market" in firearms really the dark, mysterious thing we think it is? Or is the term "black market" shorthand for something much simpler?

For example, say a man buys a gun to keep in his car for protection. A year later, someone breaks into his car and steals the gun. Two months after that, the thief sells the gun to a guy in his neighborhood who in turn uses it to hold up a liquor store. Wouldn't we say the liquor store stickup man obtained his gun through the "black market?"

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#381738 - 02/06/08 01:51 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Wouldn't we say the liquor store stickup man obtained his gun through the "black market?"







Yes we would, but if you make guns illegal for people to buy, they would still make guns, and those guns (as well as the ones already out there) would find there way to the black market.

Where there is a demand, someone will find a way to feed it.
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#381739 - 02/06/08 01:54 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

Wouldn't we say the liquor store stickup man obtained his gun through the "black market?"




To some extent yes. A large number of guns are sold by "petty" criminals but there are still those who deal in large amounts of guns. In the neighborhood i grew up in it was common knowledge that most of the coke dealers often had a handful of guns they would be willing to sell. Most weren't actively trying to sell them but if asked they would generally sell one. A total ban on guns however isn't really going to make it more difficult to get one illegally though. With the number of guns already in circulation, both legal and illegal, it's impractical to think we could take them all off the market or even put a big enough dent in the numbers to make it difficult to get one. It will just turn into a larger market due to the new demand. Now not only those with criminal intent want one, some otherwise good citizens would be willing to purchase an illegal gun for their protection, making them law breakers in the process. Unless it was possible to remove guns from the world completely a total ban on civilian possession is not going to work. Even military weapons find their way onto the market.

I prefer education, strict policy on purchase and registration of firearms. If you have thought through your intentions of buying a firearm and taken the time to get educated and qualified with one then there is no reason you can't wait a week or two for a background check prior to sales.
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#381740 - 02/06/08 02:10 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I think your point about the number of guns already in circulation is critical. With tens of millions of guns already in circulation, it is difficult to see what good a ban would do--at least for a long, long time.

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#381741 - 02/06/08 05:23 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
The problem is not with guns, it's with people.
There are other countries where there is gun ownership and they do not have the violence we face here.

In Israel they have more guns per capita than the U.S. and no where near the murder rate.

The problem here is not that guns are part of our culture. It is that murder is a big part of our culture.

We kill babies we don't want. We use drugs, rape and murder as forms of entertainment. Then when kids who grew up being indoctinated towards violence go and and kill as adults, we are shocked and puzzled as to why they did that and then blame it all on the gun.

Even if you could ban guns and round them all up we would just find other ways to kill each other. Then what would we do? Start to ban knives, bats, cars, ropes and all the other things people use to kill others?

Unless people are going to get serious and address the real issues, then there is no way to solve the real issue.

If we, as a culture, return to thinking of human lives as having real value, then perhaps something can be done about violence.

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#381742 - 02/06/08 05:55 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: JAMJTX]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Even if you could ban guns and round them all up we would just find other ways to kill each other




True, but then I have never heard of a drive by knifing

America is a very violent place compared to other 1st world countries, I am not sure why that is but I have some hunches.
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#381743 - 02/06/08 10:11 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

Quote:

Even if you could ban guns and round them all up we would just find other ways to kill each other




True, but then I have never heard of a drive by knifing





I have heard of "hit and run" so let's ban cars while we're banning guns. If you really want to save lives you will support this.

But the people who are always trying to ban guns aren't interested in public safety any where near as much as they are interested in control. Which is what all weapons bans throughout history have been about control of people.

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#381744 - 02/07/08 08:16 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: JAMJTX]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
JAMJTX,

I agree with your inciteful view.

Initially, the British began tying to prohibit the colonials (future Americans) from owning guns so that it would be more difficult for the colonials to resisit British control.

This is the 2nd amendment, Bill of Rights:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

This amendment was implemented because it was fresh in the Founding Fathers minds the attempt of the British to control the colonials.

Although some will argue the word "militia" in the amendment is directed at state created bodies (National Guard, local and state LEO etc) and not the common citizen.

I disagree with this assumption because colonial "militias" back then were nothing more than an "all call" to able bodied men who grabbed their rifles and just showed up.

As was the 4rth amendment (along with Am.2, one of the most important amendments ever crafted, IMHO):

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The 4rth Am. in my mind not only restricts police powers, but also augments it. It allows for citizens that are the victim of an overly aggressive police "presence" (believe it or not, THIS DOES HAPPEN! to seek an (hopefully) impartial decision or clarification by the judicial branch, but also gives the police or any LEO guidelines in which to perform their duties.


I think "gun control" is a good thing. I don't think criminals should be allowed to own them, I do think otherwise responsible, law abiding citizens should.

Kel
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#381745 - 02/07/08 08:27 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I disagree with this assumption because colonial "militias" back then were nothing more than an "all call" to able bodied men who grabbed their rifles and just showed up.





So because the Militia turned out NOT to be well regulated we can just redefine the 2nd amendment?

The 2nd Amendment does not say people can own guns, it has been distorted by people in order to support that belief.

That said, the society has in effect amended the consitution by defacto action and policy. Therefore the right to bear arms is the law of land, even though it's not actually the law of the land.
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#381746 - 02/07/08 08:33 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Again, back in the day, the "militia" was nothing more than people showing up to defend against the British.

I believe the part that says, "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, " is the part that is considered the defining idea in the passage.

Like I wrote tho, there is some discussion as to this determination.

BUT, as of yet, the judicial branch has decided that the above passage IS the determinant idea.

K
(nice try tho)
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Remembering 3655K

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#381747 - 02/07/08 08:45 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Whatever the Amendment may mean, it is a bar only to federal action, not extending to state2 or private3 restraints. The Supreme Court has given effect to the dependent clause of the Amendment in the only case in which it has tested a congressional enactment against the constitutional prohibition, seeming to affirm individual protection but only in the context of the maintenance of a militia or other such public force.

United States v. Miller

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#381748 - 02/07/08 08:57 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Kimo,

Please use simpler words to explain your opinion. Lacking a Juris Doctorate I am not trained in law or the specific words that are used to convey certain ideas in that arena.

Remember, when having a discussion the point is to COMMUNICATE ideas, so it helps to keep your target audience in mind...

I disagree (I think) with your assumption that the states can make laws restricting constitutional laws.

After all, isn't that what makes us all "Americans", otherwise, we would be nothing moere than a bunch of independent countries with a loose affiliation (which is what we basically were before 1787).

Thanks for simplfying,
remember, I'm just a POPO with some elementary knowledge of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.....

Kel

ALSO, Miller is touted by both sides as supporting their stance.

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Remembering 3655K

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#381749 - 02/07/08 09:59 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Remember, when having a discussion the point is to COMMUNICATE ideas, so it helps to keep your target audience in mind...





Sorry I wasn't trying to bury the message in double speak, and I do understand there is disagreement on the issue.

What I posted was a quote from the Miller ruling to rebut what you had said earlier.

Basically, it's my opinion that the 2nd amendment is not meant to allow citizens to own guns, it's meant to allow citizens to own guns as it pertains to being a part of an organized miltia, you can't take part of the amendment of out context, law is written in complete sentences for a reason and needs to be considered in it's entirety.

That said, it's my reading of the Law and on that there is disageement. Either way the real world fact is Americans have the right to bear arms, and I see no benefit in revoking that right. Regulate it a bit, sure but revoke. No way.
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#381750 - 02/07/08 10:52 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Ok,

Agreed to sorta disagree

(shakes hands)

Kel
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Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#381751 - 02/07/08 12:04 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: JAMJTX]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
If, when you say "we kill babaies we do not want," you are referring to legalized abortion, keep three things in mind:

1) Approximately 90% of US counties have no abortion providers. While a right in law, it is, for many women, barely a right in fact any more.

2) Probably the biggest source of terrorist violence in the US for the past 30 years--measured not in body count but in the sheer number of shootings, bombings, acts of arson, etc--has been the anti-abortion movement.

3) Countries where abortion is safe and legal--e.g. most of Western Europe--have far lower rates of violence than the US. In Brazil, where abortion remains illegal, shop owners routinely hire thugs to massacre street children.

I don't mean to get into an extended debate about abortion rights. But while I agree US culture has a good deal to do with our high muder rate, I think your example of abortion as symptom of the problem is mistaken.

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#381752 - 02/07/08 12:39 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Good catch File, I missed that in Jams post.

Here is the way I look at it (wrongly or rightly):

Ultimately it is the female's body. She has to live with the ramifications of that birth, whether they be abortion/adoption/rearing. I am not comfortable telling a female what she can and cannot do with her body.

If an unborn child is alive (and when I write "alive" I mean a soul) and it is a sin (from a christian perspective)to have an abortion, then that is between her and the Man upstairs and sooner or later she will have to answer to him (not me) for her actions.

I think maybe we are kinda getting off topic tho....

Kel
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Remembering 3655K

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#381753 - 02/07/08 01:50 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: hunterkell]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm only going to touch lightly on the abortion issue as i don't want to stir the pot and steer the thread farther off topic. I personally feel that women should have the right to choose to an extent and only to a certain point.

1. The pregnancy was the result of a rape or molestation.
2. The child is not far enough into term to survive on its own if "separated" from the mother.
3. The pregnancy happened despite steps to prevent a pregnancy...i.e. had her tubes tied or other forms of "permanent" birth control but it was unsuccessful.

I don't feel a woman who chooses to have unprotected sex, even when drunk, should be allowed to have an abortion. You know what can happen, take steps to avoid it. The problem i see with this would be some women getting pregnant after a one night stand or an affair then crying rape because they don't want to carry the child to term. I also don't think children should be aborted after a certain stage of development.
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#381754 - 02/07/08 02:08 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

2. The child is not far enough into term to survive on its own if "separated" from the mother.




I don't think this can be a useful point to reference. Science has made possible the survival of earlier and earlier term fetuses. It's going to be a moving target as science advances, to the point where abortion would become defacto illegal.
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#381755 - 02/07/08 02:39 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: MattJ]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I was referring more to those who could survive with little or no life support. I do fully understand and agree this area is very hard to "pin point".
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#381756 - 02/07/08 04:23 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

. The pregnancy was the result of a rape or molestation.





The problem with attempting to take a moral view on a womans right to chose is WHO are you protecting by making abortion illegal? Assumably you are protecting the baby, not punishing the mother.

If thats the case, it's not the baby's fault how it was conceived so rape or incest should not be factors in determining whether or not it should be protected.

This is a tough issue, when does a cell go from part of a woman, to an individual? Not really any good answers.
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#381757 - 02/07/08 09:21 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
MAGon Offline
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Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I'm not a LEO, and I'll be the last to say that this discussion isn't interesting... But when all's said and done, it's a moot point, 'cause the genie is well and truly out of the bottle!
There're so many guns out there that you can ban them all today and they'd still be a dime a dozen. Ditto for ammo.
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#381758 - 02/07/08 10:05 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: MAGon]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I'm not a leo, but I was in the sharp end of the military, if that counts for anything.


I have a relativly unusual take on gun control - I would like to see very stringent training as a requirement for owning a firearm - something like a 6 week boot camp, you do it once when you are young, and then you have the right to own a firearm for the rest of your life, as long as every X years (5?) you get a psych exam and undergo a firing range test. on top of that, you are resposnble for every gun you buy, until it is sold legally or destroyed under control - so if your gun is stolen, or some kid uses it, you are resposnble both criminally and in terms of liability.

that would be my preference. in reality - I think that gun owners should self regulate - I think that it is smarter to have one gun rather than 2, less is better, unless you are totally sure that you will always be able to control the weapons and not lose them.

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#381759 - 02/12/08 10:37 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: fileboy2002]
animematt Offline
Member

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 41
I personally just got my CCW licence. I have been carry my .357 magnum around with me when I feel like it.
Feels a bit odd to have all that weight oon my hip though.

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#381760 - 02/12/08 10:44 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: Kimo2007]
animematt Offline
Member

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 41
Not really. Australia and the UK have a higher violent crime rate. And they have basically banned all guns, and knives.

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#381761 - 02/13/08 12:30 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: animematt]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Not really. Australia and the UK have a higher violent crime rate. And they have basically banned all guns, and knives.




Look at your murder per capita rates, US is way up on the list,

Murder rates by country

Well ahead of Aussie and the UK.
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#381762 - 02/13/08 02:59 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: Kimo2007]
animematt Offline
Member

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 41
I never said murder rate.
I said violent crime rate.
in Australia, their assault and break in rate has sky rocketed ever since they decided to ban guns.
I heard a story about how one guy got a muzzle loader taken away cause it was "a extremely high caliber"

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#381763 - 02/13/08 08:00 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: animematt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I'm ex-LEO, and my personal feelings about gun control is that everyone should be trained to use firearms, and have the ability to carry them unrestricted. We've had lots of "perfect storm" killings where the presence of a gun would have saved lives, such as the Virginia Tech massacre... but the "gun free zone" only applied to law abiding citizens. Thugs and killers don't care what the rules are... they have evil to do... and all gun control does in that situation is make it easier for them.

I own guns and shoot almost every weekend. I have a concealed carry permit, and often am "heavily armed" when I go out... meaning primary weapon and backups. Having been an LEO, I also know to carry enough ammo to engage in a gunfight if one started... a lot of gunfights go to the guy that doesn't run out of ammunition.

Understanding how to handle guns, and making them "nothing special" takes a lot of the risk out of them. If you learn to handle them safely, and stick to the rules, you should never have trouble... and if you need the weapon, you'll know how to handle it.

A couple of months ago, I had a van full of illegals that tried to "bum rush" my car at the ATM, and all I had to do to stop it was pull out my .40 cal Smith and rack it in front of them... they piled back in the van and sped off... so the "view of a gun" has value of protection as well as the ability to shoot somebody. Thugs look for victims... not confrontations... and when they find themselves outgunned, or trying a victim that turns out not to be a victim... they fold pretty quick.

The saying is "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six"... and a gun's presence is a safety valve for a lot of situations, and while it provides "deadly force", it also provides "stopping power" when perps see it pointed in their direction.

It takes training, and regular practice, however to be both safe and effective.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#381764 - 02/13/08 10:37 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: wristtwister]
animematt Offline
Member

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 41
I hope I am never in a situation like that.
Since I am rather small, it is tough for me to carry a lot of things. Even my revolver prints well if I do not have a coat on. Then I just have a walther p1.
I felt a bit uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun into the grocery store the other day. But I am sure I will get used to it.
I also think anyone should be able to carry and use firearms (after background check, etc etc.)

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#381765 - 02/14/08 04:46 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: fileboy2002]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
People should be allowed to own guns to protect themselves providing they are law-abiding people. If you look at the situation during Hurricane Katrina, you know that the police can't always be there to protect you and there are always going to be some that will take that kind of situation and turn it into a chance to go and terrorize/rob/rape/or loot.

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#381766 - 03/04/08 02:41 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Do you think it is possible to believe something is morally wrong yet recognize that criminalizing it is bad public policy? That is what we are really talking about here: criminalization. The "pro-life" movement is really a pro-criminalization movement.

Making abortion illegal will not stop people from having them. People in the US had abortions before it became letgal; all over the world, wherever abortion is illegal, people still have abortions.

I alwasy want to ask: how much prison time would you have a women aerve because she got an abortion?

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#381767 - 03/04/08 04:35 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: Kimo2007]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
First, I'd complain that those rates are almost a decade old - though they do cover the years immediately after the UK firearms ban in 1997.

But you have to keep in mind that at the time of the ban, firearms ownership in the UK was under 1% (in comparison to the US's almost 30% ownership). Before the ban the rates of firearm usage (used in a crime, not necessarily to shoot someone) in the UK was 13,874, in 2002 it was 24,070. Interestingly enough, a significant portion of those numbers (about 3000) were fake handguns.

Actual shooting incidents went from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,001 in 2005/06 - a 110% increase.

The actual data is from here, and here

During the same period, US gun crime dropped significantly. Statistics are like Bible quotes though - anyone can use them to say what they want them to say. Take these with a grain of salt.

Interestingly enough, there is a city here in Georgia (one exit north of me) where it is the law that homeowners must have a gun - unless exempted by law. The gun crime rate has dropped 50% while the population rose over 500%. an annoying story about it

What does this all mean? Hell if I know! But I like guns - I'm one of those weirdo collectors - and I think they should be legal for all sane people. I also admit that finding out if someone is sane or not is difficult. It is interesting that CCW holders in Florida are 840 times less likely to commit a crime than non-permit holders. So maybe I should be worried about people who don't have permits...
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#381768 - 03/05/08 10:26 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: fileboy2002]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

Do you think it is possible to believe something is morally wrong yet recognize that criminalizing it is bad public policy? That is what we are really talking about here: criminalization. The "pro-life" movement is really a pro-criminalization movement.




I agree completely. The thing is it's all a matter of perspective. Some see it as their choice while others see it as murder. All i was stating was a personal opinion of what i think the policy should be based on. That i feel there should be stipulations vice a flat out legal ban.

Quote:

Making abortion illegal will not stop people from having them. People in the US had abortions before it became letgal; all over the world, wherever abortion is illegal, people still have abortions.




Making ANYTHING illegal never stops it from happening. I personally feel it's better to have laws in place to help govern these activities than to simply throw my hands in the air and say forget it. How does NOT having laws against these issues make things better?

Quote:

I alwasy want to ask: how much prison time would you have a women aerve because she got an abortion?




I'm sure that would depend on the aspects of that law and how it's applied in that state. If it's ruled that abortion is murder and that law is broken then i would expect the punishment to fit within the stated guidelines for committing murder of any kind unless separate punishment criteria are set specifically for abortions.
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#381769 - 03/31/08 04:43 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: animematt]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
All I can do is quote the great "Larry the Cable Guy": "If guns kill people then I can blame my pencil for spelling errors."
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#381770 - 04/01/08 10:18 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Laf,
I find it hard to correlate armed self defense of you or your person from mortal danger to a purposeful murder of an innocent child in the womb.

Quote:

Making ANYTHING illegal never stops it from happening.




That's very true, but the reason we make things illegal is to make some effort through the legal system to stop the damage of the particular action in question from harming society. If laws weren't in force to stop murder, theft, assault, etc. we'd live in a constant state of chaos.

The danger from disarming the society is that it leaves people less able to protect themselves. If abortion were outlawed, it would simply mean that more children would be given up to adoption... hardly a moral equivalent to each other.

As you said, even if guns were outlawed, someone would find a way to either acquire one or make one... and in a "perfect storm" scenario like that, you'd find the recurring instances of what happened at Virginia Tech.

The Army surplus store here in town used to have Tee-shirts that said "don't run from the snipers... you'll only die tired", and that same kind of thinking can be applied to creating an environment where one bozo with a weapon can wreak havoc on the community that's disarmed. I've said it repeatedly that my feeling is like the one armed sheriff's deputy in "Unforgiven"... "I don't want to get killed for a lack of shootin' back"...

As our society continues to fracture, and the groups in it tend to get more acrimonious toward each other, it's becoming more important to be ready to protect yourself today more than ever before. The old days of going out in the parking lot and "duke'n it out" with somebody are over... now they pull a gun or knife, or have ten of their friends jumping in on you... and it's getting worse instead of better.

Personally, I can control my anger and keep things limited to words... but LOTS of people out there these days can't do that... and I'd rather be armed and ready, than dead and sorry. Firearms are not toys... and they have consequences, just like abortion has consequences, especially if they're used indiscriminately. People who carry them have to be able to restrain themselves, and to understand when the danger is enough to draw them out.

Not everybody has that temperament, and not everybody has the restraint... which is why the CCW laws are very definite and strict in most states. I carry a gun because carrying a cop is too much work... and they're heavy... plus, it pi$$es off their bosses when they want them doing something else.

Thomas Jefferson said "the beauty of the Second Amendment is that we will not need that right until the government tries to take it from us". It's interesting that an M-16 in the hands of a soldier is an "outdated, steaming pile of excrement" as a weapon, but in a civilian's hands, it is a destruction-dealing death sprayer that's assumed to be pointed at a parking lot full of toddlers and soccer moms.

... and it just goes on and on from there...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#381771 - 04/04/08 04:29 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: wristtwister]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

I find it hard to correlate armed self defense of you or your person from mortal danger to a purposeful murder of an innocent child in the womb.




At what point does a fetus become a child? At conception, when developed enough to survive outside the womb? You are more than welcome to your opinion on this as is everyone. My personal opinion is that if the fetus can not survive outside the womb, even with some support, then under certain circumstances it's acceptable to me. I mentioned this before, for the most part rape and molestation/incest cases are pretty much the only things i feel are acceptable reasons for abortion and only in the early stages of the pregnancy (3 months or less). By the way i'm not the one who brought up abortion JAMJTX is and i don't recall trying to compare the two, i was only commenting on an issue mentioned earlier.

Quote:

That's very true, but the reason we make things illegal is to make some effort through the legal system to stop the damage of the particular action in question from harming society.




I agree and know full well why we have laws. But what i said is true, laws don't STOP criminal activity. They only provide us with guidance and the ability to punish those who break them.

Quote:

The danger from disarming the society is that it leaves people less able to protect themselves.




I disagree, as someone said earlier there are other countries out there that have such gun bans and their murder and in some cases their crime rate are lower per capita than ours. Here is the thing, no one can say one way or another if a gun ban would be bad for this country. There are too many variables; it's all a matter of opinion. You can't compare one countries success or failure with a law against another because they are culturally different. What works in one culture might not work or have the same effect in another.

Quote:

As you said, even if guns were outlawed, someone would find a way to either acquire one or make one... and in a "perfect storm" scenario like that, you'd find the recurring instances of what happened at Virginia Tech.




Here is the question. Would making guns illegal make it harder for these kids to get their hands on them and commit crimes like Virginia Tech. or make it harder for people to defend themselves against it? You stated making guns illegal would leave people defenseless but here we are, guns are legal and easily accessible but yet all those people were still unable to defend themselves. The simple truth is having a gun in your possession doesn't always equal being safe.

As i said before i am all for people being licensed to carry. All i want is strict laws on issue and training.
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#381772 - 04/04/08 06:30 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:


As i said before i am all for people being licensed to carry. All i want is strict laws on issue and training.




pretty much my feeling - and I'd like poeple to have legal responsiblity for their firearms from the time they purchase them until they are sold legally or destroyed in a controleed enviroment - if a gun is stolen or used accidentally, the gun owner should be resposnbile financially and legally for the harm caused.


I have no desire to see the population disarmed, I would like to see them armed more responsibly.

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#381773 - 04/04/08 05:10 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: globetrotter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
In Israel are regular citizens (not soldiers or police) allowed to carry weapons? I've heard both yes and no.
Anyway, I think the government should give everyone a high powered assault weapon and extensive tactical training with said weapon after going through the standard security checks. The bad guys can find their own but everyone else (including grandma next door) gets one for free and free training. No more crime with firearms.
You guys here about the 3 Army Rangers who pulled off a near perfect bank robbery in Seattle? Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Anyone see Hot Fuzz? haha
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#381774 - 04/06/08 04:10 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Stormdragon]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

In Israel are regular citizens (not soldiers or police) allowed to carry weapons? I've heard both yes and no.





if you have a reason - that is, you can show that you need one, and/or you served in a good unit in the army or as an officer, you can get one gun. it is very very difficult to get more than one. you need to go to a range and re-qualify every few years, and you need to account for your ammo - you return your brass when you buy new ammo so that you can't stockpile. you have a great deal of legal responsiblity for any damage done with your gun

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#381775 - 04/07/08 09:37 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: laf7773]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Laf7773 -Here is the question. Would making guns illegal make it harder for these kids to get their hands on them and commit crimes like Virginia Tech. or make it harder for people to defend themselves against it? You stated making guns illegal would leave people defenseless but here we are, guns are legal and easily accessible but yet all those people were still unable to defend themselves. The simple truth is having a gun in your possession doesn't always equal being safe.


That's a good question and in hindsight seems like a reasonable solution. But there is something wrong with the thought process, you double smash the innocent citizen.

You should never take rights away from the law abiding citizen in order to Stop criminal acts. If you follow that logic you are punishing the innocent for crime that the guilty commit. There are untold stories of how law abiding citizens that saved/protected someone or protect family with the use of a firearm. Remember the tool is only as good as the person handling it.

I remember Hilter took weapons away from the citizen before he started his tryantcail reign. I remember reading during the cold war Russian's Prime Minister Crewshulzt (<=sp) in the 60s-70s stating that dropping troops by parachute on USA would be sucicide because of the armed citizen of the USA. Thats Old news but just something to learn from history.

As for the Vigina Tech situation there were sign before it happen like most existing preventive measures in USA, we only apply them after the fact. This guy had a problem and it wasn't dealt with.

Ben Franklin stated "Those how will trade rights for freedom, desire niether".

You can't punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.


Globetrotter - I like the way they make the citizens responcibile over there, but I'd have to give up 1000's of rounds of various caliber. I reload my own jewles of ammo. So I agree with Franklin.


Edited by Neko456 (04/07/08 09:42 AM)

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#381776 - 04/07/08 10:17 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The fact is the issue is people not guns (of course we all know that but sometimes I think we lose sight of that fact). Taking away guns will not do any good ultimately as then people would just get better with knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands, I mean if you want to hurt another person you'll find a way to do it and very effectively at that. Look at prison life or the violent crime rate in Australia and the UK, places that I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) do not allow civilians to own guns. They have nearly as much assault and battery's and homicides as here in the U.S and that number isn't improving with stricter gun control laws. I've checked out some of the statistics which shows that as well as talked to good friends who live in those areas and even members of this forum. The problem in my opinion is more directly related to substance abuse, and psychological problems. We should be focusing there I think. In my old town most people had a few guns (95% of the populace or better) and they had zero violent crimes each year (except for 1 or 2 yrs-granted the town has 5,000 people).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#381777 - 04/08/08 12:29 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

That's a good question and in hindsight seems like a reasonable solution. But there is something wrong with the thought process, you double smash the innocent citizen.




Who said i wanted guns to be illegal? I'm pretty sure i've stated repeatedly that i think they should be legal but with stricter control and training. From your statement previous to the one quoted about VA Tech. i was simply pointing out that just because guns are legal doesn't mean citizens are automatically going to be safe. Stricter regulations on gun control as far as ownership, responsibility for your weapons can help quell these types of occurrences. It will still happen but there are more opportunities to recognize a situation in the making.

Quote:

You can't punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.





Read my post again, this isn't what i was saying.

Quote:

As i said before i am all for people being licensed to carry. All i want is strict laws on issue and training.




Look familiar?
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#381778 - 04/08/08 04:49 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Stormdragon]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

The fact is the issue is people not guns (of course we all know that but sometimes I think we lose sight of that fact). Taking away guns will not do any good ultimately as then people would just get better with knives, sticks, rocks, bare hands, I mean if you want to hurt another person you'll find a way to do it and very effectively at that. Look at prison life




actually, that is a good example - I read about an assult last week where 4 gang members attacked a guard with home made knives. he was hurt, but came out alive. so, lets say 4 career criminals attack somebody outside of prison, what is his survival rate? guns do make a big difirence in the abilty to carry out violence successfuly.

Neko - yeah, that would be a huge waste of ammo.

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#381779 - 04/08/08 09:57 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Laff773 wrote - Here is the question. Would making guns illegal make it harder for these kids to get their hands on them and commit crimes like Virginia Tech. or make it harder for people to defend themselves against it?



Me - I wasn't saying that you wanted guns illegal I was just giving a responce to your hypothetical question. It was a good one in a perfect world. We have laws in place to prevent the insane and criminals from buying guns they are not presused until after the fact unless something on the Computer matches up, which work if the info is available. I agree with the training issue the CCL training is just a familarity course. And the VPO (Victim protection order) is ineffective because it doesn't really protect the victim it enrages the stalking culprit. The problem is how do we make them proactive.


StromDragon very pronounced analyzation and accurate its the mind of man that we should fear not the tool he uses.

Globetrotter as I mention I like the way you guys do things there I just would hate to give up too much. Seems like it coul hurt practice gathering brass to show that you need more. How do they regulate reloaders I guess powder and projectiles are limited or signed for?

B. Franklin stated "Those who give up Rights for Freedom deserves Niether".

I swichted (due to typo) the letters in "who" it read "how" in the 1st post, spd typing from work. pardon.


Edited by Neko456 (04/08/08 09:59 AM)
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#381780 - 04/09/08 01:31 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Neko456]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:


Globetrotter as I mention I like the way you guys do things there I just would hate to give up too much. Seems like it coul hurt practice gathering brass to show that you need more. How do they regulate reloaders I guess powder and projectiles are limited or signed for?






good question, I never knew anybody in israel who loaded their own, I'm not sure how it would work.

but remember also that all of the ranges are built to make it easy to collect your shells. as a matter of fact, most ranges sell ammo, so it is more an issue of buying what you have fired that day.

i guess the idea is just to make it difficult to stockpile ammo.

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#381781 - 04/20/08 01:59 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: globetrotter]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Interesting conversation and I wish I knew and had the answers as well. I am one of those converts to Pro-gun rights rather than not and have had lengthy 'talks' with my brother who describes himself more anti-gun than not.

BTW, I am all for training and responsibility, but Globe you talked about the responsibilty of the owner even if a weapon was stolen. I have to take some exception to this since by extension you would have to apply this to other things. If a car was stolen and used in a hit and run accident, would this then be the responsibility of the real owner of the car? If a pyromaniac steals gas and a Bic lighter from a hardware store, does his intent and willingness to do harm with these things automatically transfer to the legal owners of these items, despite their best abilities to keep them from being stolen?

What you have left out of the responsibility equation is that the hand that weilds the tool should take the brunt of its responsible use, not be vouched for completely by those who have taken measures to keep them from unauthorized hands. I am not saying guns shouldn't be locked up or stored properly or that training not be mandated, but to maintain an inextricably tied leash on something's safe use goes against the intent and willingness of criminals to disabuse that use by stealing these things.

I also think there should be a real evaluation of the intended use of firearms with regards to defense and violence. The key words being focused on the intent for violence. I had read a story a few weeks ago about a bank VP under investigation for embezzlement and then who proceeds to take baseball bats to his entire family and drives into a overpass pylon. Yes, killed his entire family with baseball bats and then kills himself.

The intent to do violence and harm, regardless of tool really has to be examined. Guns may offer evil, expedient opportunities to some, but to my mind do not change those intents to do harm if not there. Other tools, sans the availability of guns, will be at their disposal in lieu of firearms and you will still have violence.

I really do wish I had some answers, but I don't....

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#381782 - 04/20/08 10:18 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun contro [Re: fileboy2002]
karate_popo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 154
Loc: NYC
I don't know about other states, but in nys, you have to be fingerprinted and a background check done in order to carry a gun if you are not already an LEO.. as far as keeping the illegal guns off the streets, i believe it will be something that is always around.. i support gun control of course, but they can only control it soo much...
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#381783 - 04/21/08 12:55 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: butterfly]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

, but Globe you talked about the responsibilty of the owner even if a weapon was stolen. I have to take some exception to this since by extension you would have to apply this to other things.






not really - I think that this applies to tools that are intended for a certain use. sure, lets say that if you make a boat that is very very fast and has long range, and somebody steals it and uses it to smuggle drugs, then you have some responsiblity for that, too. that makes sense.

but having firearms around is, by defnition, dangerous. it should be totally clear to people what their reponsibility should be.


here is why I think that - I have no issue with a guy who gets a shotgun or a handgun for his house, locks it in a small safe and trains with it regularly. I do, however, have a great deal of a probrlem with people who have handguns or firearms around the house and don't secure them properly, with people who have high velocity weapons in urban settings, or people who want to have a collection of 25 military style firearms. if you want to have weapons, you need to first think about how you are going to secure them.

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but to maintain an inextricably tied leash on something's safe use goes against the intent and willingness of criminals to disabuse that use by stealing these things.






I think that the "leash" is usefull - I don't own a gun. I have had several that were my reponsiblity, though. if I didn'te it with me, I spent time and effort thinking about how I was going to secure it. when I was vacation, I made sure that it was in a secure place, for instance. that is what I expect from gun owners,

Quote:


read a story a few weeks ago about a bank VP under investigation for embezzlement and then who proceeds to take baseball bats to his entire family and drives into a overpass pylon. Yes, killed his entire family with baseball bats and then kills himself.





yes, but the reason this sticks in your head is because of how rare it is.

last week, in a town outside of new york city, there was a gang riot with almost 100 participants. gang members from one town attacked gang members from another, using knives, axes and baseball bats. not a single person was killed. if a gun had been introduced to that equation, there may have been 10 gang members and a half dozen innocent passersby killed.

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#381784 - 04/24/08 11:52 AM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: globetrotter]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Globe, I understand some of the things you are talking about and the consequences of violence. But I also think it is a matter of perspective that is also involved here. That those whom I associate with are competent, law-abiding individuals that I could invite to my home for dinner without fear. That the people I personally know that are gun owners, re-enactors, shooting sports enthusiasts, and hunters (some of whom are relatives) are not the individuals that leap to mind when you or others may immediately think of guns and gun owners. Not everyone is running around with camo pants on sporting the latest in laser-guided bullet technology. But that's what I see. Good, nice people who train with and use guns for different reasons. But none of which has been to do intentional harm to another individual without life and death provocation involved in such a decision.

And yes, I can understand that a bunch of thugs beating on each other with baseball bats and knives perhaps makes less indiscriminate violence. These are not the people who, btw, are probably upstanding, law-abiding citizens buying their guns from authorized dealers who have mandatory background checks and waiting periods (this latter depending on where you live).

I am, however, concerned that the same group of ruffians sporting baseball bats and knives decides to break into someone's home while the homeowner is left contesting that break-in with nothing more than a rolled up newspaper.

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#381785 - 06/03/08 01:19 PM Re: What do the LEO on here think about gun control. [Re: Kimo2007]
Naaman Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 1
This thread is quite long, and I'm sure my point has been touched on already, but just to add a "+1" to the list of folks that believe banning guns is futile, all that would happen would be that law abiding citizens would be easier victims.

It doesn't take a gun to kill someone. It takes INTENT. After all, Cain killed Able LONG before anyone had any concept of what a gun was. Murder is a much older concept than guns.

Anyone who wanted to could kill another person with their bare hands. The difference is, if we're only using bare hands, then the "vicitm" at least has a fighting chance. Now, if the victim had a gun, he would have a fighting chance against an armed criminal.

As for killing with hands... if we ban guns, might as well ban martial arts, too. And kitchen knives for that matter.

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