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#381541 - 02/04/08 07:48 AM UFC 81 (possible Spoilers)
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
This is for you guys who haven't allready seen the fights

http://mmafightvideos.blogspot.com/search/label/ufc%2081%20videos

Scroll down fro Mir v Lesnar and Sylvia v Big Nog

Then we can discuss it (dont want to ruin it for anyone!)
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#381542 - 02/04/08 10:25 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I'd like to hear what people thought about the Mir Lesner fight...seems to me the outcome, didn't really reflect the match.

Gave me a hollow feeling.
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#381543 - 02/04/08 10:32 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
MattJ Offline
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Cheers for the link, shills! Man, some excellent fights there!

Horn vs Marquardt had a lot of action. I thought Marquardt totally KO'd Horn at one point with an elbow, but Jeremy kept on going, somehow. Great fight.

Sylvia vs Nogueira was another excellent fight. Can't believe how sharp Sylvia looked on his feet. Good, sharp striking combined with impressive take-down defense. Finally looked to me like the champion that he has been. Was very suprised that Nogueira decided to keep the fight on the feet for as much as he did. Hard to fault Tim's performance, right up until the Anaconda choke by Nogueira. Tim now has my repect.

Lesnar vs Mir was pretty shocking to me. I am a big Frank Mir fan, but really expected him to lose this one. Lesnar looked frighteningly impressive for the first 3 minutes or so, with pinpoint takedown and GnP to Frank. I thought it was going to be over in the first minute, TBH. But Frank hung in there, getting battered but setting up submissions. finally tapping Brock out with a leg lock. Great for Frank! I won't doubt him again.

And while Brock did do very well here, I think this fight also conclusively shows that pro-level skill in other sporting disciplines does not mean victory in MMA.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381544 - 02/04/08 10:55 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

getting battered but setting up submissions. finally tapping Brock out with a leg lock. Great for Frank! I won't doubt him again.





I might call it getting his head caved in, clearly getting dominated, you might even say it was a beat down. Take off the gloves and Mir is a bloody pulp.

The rule set saved Mir and of course pure skill gave him the victory. I have not watched that much UFC so maybe others might have a better perspective, but personally I have never seen such lopsided loss.
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#381545 - 02/04/08 11:32 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Kimo -

Quote:

I might call it getting his head caved in, clearly getting dominated, you might even say it was a beat down. Take off the gloves and Mir is a bloody pulp.




OR......take off the gloves and Lesnar has a broken hand. And a broken leg.

I acknowledge that Lesnar was dominating the first few minutes. But you seem to imply that there was something that Lesnar could have done otherwise to get a victory?

Quote:

The rule set saved Mir




Oh boy, here we go with that......
How do you figure that the "rule set" saved Mir as opposed to Lesnar?

Quote:

I have not watched that much UFC so maybe others might have a better perspective, but personally I have never seen such lopsided loss.




Lopsided loss for Lesnar, you mean?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381546 - 02/04/08 11:34 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
_kyle Offline
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Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Montreal

Quote:


I might call it getting his head caved in, clearly getting dominated, you might even say it was a beat down. Take off the gloves and Mir is a bloody pulp.

The rule set saved Mir and of course pure skill gave him the victory. I have not watched that much UFC so maybe others might have a better perspective, but personally I have never seen such lopsided loss.





This isn't a street fight, it's a sport. You can't speculate what would happen in a fight without gloves.


I believe Mir was going to win before the fight, my mind changed quickly in the beginning when Lesnar rocked him but I was impressed with his ability when he's being knocked around.

Minotauro was definately my favourite for this fight, after watching him submit Cro Crop after being battered I don't think big Tim could do anything to Nog that he hasn't felt before.

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#381547 - 02/04/08 11:47 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

take off the gloves and Lesnar has a broken hand. And a broken leg.





Take off the gloves and we never get to the broken leg...but that is speculation.

Quote:

But you seem to imply that there was something that Lesnar could have done otherwise to get a victory?





There was plenty he could have done, and that is what seperates the 2 fighters. When Mir got his leg, Lesner was standing there trying to figure out what to do.

Quote:

How do you figure that the "rule set" saved Mir as opposed to Lesnar?





Because Lesner seemed to be trying to figure out what he "Could do"...hit him in the back of the head...nope. Pick him up and drop him on his head...nope....hmmm what can I do to this guy...hey what's that on my ankle?
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#381548 - 02/04/08 11:52 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Because Lesner seemed to be trying to figure out what he "Could do"...hit him in the back of the head...nope. Pick him up and drop him on his head...nope....hmmm what can I do to this guy...hey what's that on my ankle?




Body slam is a legal move in MMA. So is suplex. Rules didn't prevent Brock from doing them - Frank did.

Hitting the back of the head is not allowed in boxing, either.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381549 - 02/04/08 12:06 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: _kyle]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

This isn't a street fight, it's a sport.




Thank you I have telling people that for years.

Quote:

believe Mir was going to win before the fight, my mind changed quickly in the beginning when Lesnar rocked him but I was impressed with his ability when he's being knocked around.





No question Mir was the more talented fighter, and he did a great job of surviving and getting a submission.

My point was that the Lesner seemed like he could do whatever he wanted with Mir, almost like a man fighting a boy, then lost (thats the lopsided part).

When we discuss UFC here there is always the undertone that one guy beat the other, and it's as realistic as you can get while still being a sport.

This fight seemed to be an exception to me, it's not as if the fight was somewhat close then Mir used his BJJ and submitted Lesnar, Lesnar was about to eat his young.

I give Mir all the credit in the world he used advanced fighting skill to beat a beast. Just hard for me to watch that and think he "won a fight".
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#381550 - 02/04/08 12:34 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
But he did win a fight, Brock isnt versatile enough.........yet and with guys like Mir he has a LOT of experience to catch up on.

Anyone see the Heath v Boestch fight? wow.... heath was demolished by the ufc debutant who took the fight at ten days notice, never have i seen the Muay thai teep used to such an effect in an MMA fight. and did anyone else think the ref stopped the fight too late? heath was clearley gone but the referee allowed several hefty blows on him before he called it?

Matt
That elbow Horn took was painfull to watch I cant believe he got up!

Big Nog must have thought he was in dreamland when he eventually got sylvia down, it was just too easy for him (on the floor that is)
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Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

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#381551 - 02/04/08 12:48 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

But he did win a fight, Brock isnt versatile enough.........yet and with guys like Mir he has a LOT of experience to catch up on.






I'd say he won a match, maybe this is an example of how MMA is becoming more like boxing, it can firmly say it's a sport more then a fight, and maybe thats a good thing.
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#381552 - 02/04/08 12:52 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I remember Mir beating Tank Abbot the exact same way. After the fight Abbot said he didnt want to lose like that, but also, he wouldn't want to win like that either

The question of UFC being 'realistic' is a retarded one- its a real fight, plain and simple.

Want to know what would happen bare knuckle/no rules? Lesnar breaks his hand during the GNP, then Mir cranks the ankle hard and fast, breaking the ankle, instead of measured pressure for a tapout. Mir goes to hospital for cuts and concussion, Lesnar loses use of at least 2 limbs for 6 weeks minimum.
No one 'wins' a fight outside of a sporting environment.

Lets hope that this builds Mir's confidence and motivates him to recapture some of his former glory.
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#381553 - 02/04/08 01:37 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

The question of UFC being 'realistic' is a retarded one- its a real fight, plain and simple.





Because in real fights someone steps in and makes one guy stop hitting the other in the back of the head, calls time and stands them up?

The issue of realism is an important one because the UFC holds itself up and THE answer to combat sports, so when you see a fight that seems to be have a different outcome then one might expect it raises the question of why is UFC better then wrestling or boxing or any other combat sport?

Sure within it's rule set it's real, but personally watching the fight I think if BL is allowed another level of brutality the fight has a very different outcome.

Quote:

Want to know what would happen bare knuckle/no rules? Lesnar breaks his hand during the GNP, then Mir cranks the ankle hard and fast, breaking the ankle




That is pure speculation on your part and I have a different opinion on what would happened. What is clear, IMO is BL was overwhelming FM right up until the submission and I find the contrast between the fights tenor, and it's outcome interesting and worthy of discussion.
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#381554 - 02/04/08 03:19 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Because in real fights someone steps in and makes one guy stop hitting the other in the back of the head, calls time and stands them up?




Well, yeah, kinda. If the fight is in a club, then bouncers will do just that. If its in public then, depending on circumstance, either one of the fighters will be dragged off by friends or kicked in the face by interested parties. Failing that, then any number of concerned members of the public, or the arrival of law enforcement will intervene.
I cant honestly think of more than a very few 'true' one on one violent encounters that i have been in, intervened in or witnessed, and in the period of time that it is a straight forward fistfight, then ther simply is no more complete skillset than being able to strike, clinch and grapple.

Quote:

The issue of realism is an important one because the UFC holds itself up and THE answer to combat sports, so when you see a fight that seems to be have a different outcome then one might expect it raises the question of why is UFC better then wrestling or boxing or any other combat sport?




Because of that very thing. Increase the options, increase the potential for use of strengths, and exploitation of weakness. This makes things unpredictable, and therefore of consistent interest to the spectator.

Quote:

Sure within it's rule set it's real, but personally watching the fight I think if BL is allowed another level of brutality the fight has a very different outcome.




I worked in customer control for 10 years (still do occasionaly), and have worked with some very, very physicaly gifted fighters. Without doubt, the best people I have worked with in regards to dealing with the physical aspect of dealing with violent 'no rules' situations have been from full contact sports environments- namely Judo, Boxing and muay thai.

Spend your time training against skilled people trying to knock you out within a set of rules, you will be much more likely to deal with reckless people not bound by rules.

Quote:

What is clear, IMO is BL was overwhelming FM right up until the submission and I find the contrast between the fights tenor, and it's outcome interesting and worthy of discussion.




This happens all the time in all situations, not just fighting. Humanity is flawed, and it only takes one second to take advantage of a mistake. I have seen a guy being bounced off cars in a street in Cardiff, the guy doing it rammed this chaps head into a car door, the guy bounced funny and fell, and the attacker got caught up in the dudes clothing, fell with him, hit his head on the floor and was KTFO. The guy who was being beaten up got up and ran away.
Life sucks.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#381555 - 02/04/08 04:00 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Well, yeah, kinda. If the fight is in a club, then bouncers will do just that.




I didn't want to cut and paste your entire post because I basically agree with most of what you said. Remove all controls and as you pointed out any number of factors come into play.

But I want to focus on this fight, and the UFC as a combat sport. In that case, the sporting rules, the stopage and standing up of the fighters was directly related to the outcome of the fight.

It seems to me BL lost because of rules that prevented him from destroying MIR, which he clearly seemed about to do. But the rules didn't prevent MIR from exploiting BL's mistake.

It doesn't show me the best fighter won, it shows me that a great BJJ guy can defeat even an overwheling physical opponent, under UFC rules.
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#381556 - 02/04/08 04:21 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
"It doesn't show me the best fighter won, it shows me that a great BJJ guy can defeat even an overwheling physical opponent, under UFC rules."

I do see your point but,

Do you remember the original UFC's? there were far less rules than there is now and what happened then?

A great BJJ guy defeated many overwheling physical opponents. there was no gloves then, you could hit to the groin and the back of the head if i'm correct.

Remeber when Royce Gracie lay under dan Severn for 20 minutes? and then caught him in a triangle choke, what happened if the ref didn't intervein then? Death? brain damage?. I think that would pretty much decide the outcome of a "real fight".
_________________________
Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

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#381557 - 02/04/08 04:52 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
Also can you believe there was only officially a 10 pound weight difference?
_________________________
Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

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#381558 - 02/04/08 05:05 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Do you remember the original UFC's?




Yes and I was quite thrilled that a 170LB BJJ fighter was able to beat people the way he did.

But hard to compare, the fighters are in a different league now, even Gracie was made to look bad by (Matt Hughes?)

Maybe there have been some, but I personally have not seen a fight like this one before.
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#381559 - 02/04/08 05:29 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Tim Sylvia Vs. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

I expected Nogueria to win, always enjoyed his technique and have one of his training videos; superb. However I give Tim credit more then ever because he did superb defense to Nogueria's earlier takedowns plus had precision punching. I would say that this is the best Tim Sylvia I have ever seen and a class act at the end.


Frank Mir Vs. Brock Lesnar

I wanted Frank to win however I thought Brock was going to destroy him; I'm glad I was wrong. Brock looked good but he is still very unskilled so give him time. Mir on the other hand survived the barrage and submitted him with good technique; excellent for him. This proves that technique beats strength again. Brock has been training for a 1.5 years and that is a combination of different skill so how much he spent on BJJ is questionable. For me after 3 years on and off I would say I know more then he does and that isn't saying much. Give him time.


Jeremy Horn Vs. Nate Marquardt

Glad Nate won the fight and was cheering for him but I take nothing away from Horn.


Gleison Tibau Vs. Tyson Griffin

I like Tyson and was happy to see his win. I think that he could have put Gleison away a few times but he is one tough kid and had some good takedowns on Tyson. Tyson's stand up and kicking was excellent.


Chris Lytle Vs. Kyle Bradley

Wanted Chris to win and he delivered big time; good for him. Hope to see more of him.


David Heath Vs. Tim Boetsch

Didn't know who was going to win but Tim is a beast. I don't know how many times Joe Rogan said he took the fight on short notice but good for this guy. He didn't look like a kicker but he sure surprised me. Good fight.


There were some other fights not shown but these were.
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#381560 - 02/04/08 06:14 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

But I want to focus on this fight, and the UFC as a combat sport. In that case, the sporting rules, the stopage and standing up of the fighters was directly related to the outcome of the fight.




I really don't see what you mean. Brock did a (what seemed to be unintentional, IMHO) illegal strike to the back of the head. That strike is not legal in boxing, either. Are you surprised that Brock didn't whip out a knife and stab Frank, too? I mean, no one is claiming that the UFC is a street fight. But it is the closest thing you can get to, in pro sports.

Quote:

It seems to me BL lost because of rules that prevented him from destroying MIR, which he clearly seemed about to do. But the rules didn't prevent MIR from exploiting BL's mistake.




So you're saying that Brock was the better striker and take-down artist. OK, not disagreeing. So, if anything, putting Frank back on his feet didn't really help him, did it? Brock would simply bash him or take him back down, right? So rules advantage for Frank - nil. What do you think it is that Brock could have done?

We have already established that Brock could have slammed or suplexed, etc, Frank - but he didn't. Because Frank broke Brock's position, and set up his submission.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381561 - 02/04/08 06:40 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I remember Mir beating Tank Abbot the exact same way. After the fight Abbot said he didnt want to lose like that, but also, he wouldn't want to win like that either

The question of UFC being 'realistic' is a retarded one- its a real fight, plain and simple.

Want to know what would happen bare knuckle/no rules? Lesnar breaks his hand during the GNP, then Mir cranks the ankle hard and fast, breaking the ankle, instead of measured pressure for a tapout. Mir goes to hospital for cuts and concussion, Lesnar loses use of at least 2 limbs for 6 weeks minimum.
No one 'wins' a fight outside of a sporting environment.

Lets hope that this builds Mir's confidence and motivates him to recapture some of his former glory.




I thought it was a kneebar? Anyway, Lesnar goes away with a broken leg and hand.

Lesnar was physically dominant,but his punches were relatively weak compared to his size. Improper punching(more like flailing), lack of technical ability, etc... The only thing that saved Lessnar from losing sooner was his physical sive.

Hey Dana, What happened to your boy you built up so much? You are an idiot!!

Chemo,

Are there any threads on here where you are not bitching and whining? Could you point me to them??
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#381562 - 02/04/08 10:19 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: BrianS]
MattyChi Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 177
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
Yea, for how huge lesnar is, his punches did not seem to be delivering a lot of damage. His technique and body control just seemed off. To me he just looked like a huge dude with some wrestling ability with really sloppy quazi-effective ground and pound.

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#381563 - 02/04/08 10:27 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I really don't see what you mean.




I mean certain strikes are not allowed and thus changed the likely outcome, it's like an extention of other points people have made where they say if you could ....then grapplers would lose a lot of their advantage.

Quote:

no one is claiming that the UFC is a street fight. But it is the closest thing you can get to, in pro sports.





True, but my point/opinion is that had this been a street fight, the outcome would have been different which strikes at the heart of being the most realistic, doesn't it?

Quote:

So, if anything, putting Frank back on his feet didn't really help him, did it?




Except that he was hurt and the time out allowed him to recover and he realized that the ground was his only chance and went on his back on purpose I thought.

The stopage was the right thing to do under the rules, and the outcome was fair, under the rules. I am just looking at the fight overall and seeing something I think is worth exploring.

UFC has taken the fangs out of striking, rightly so. But by doing so it gives an advantage to some grappling techniques, to me it looked like Mir was able to submit BL because he was somewhat caged by the striking rules, while the grappling techniques are not caged.

Now in reality you can go to the brink with a submisson and stop, it's slower and more methodical then striking and thats really the way the sport needs to be, but I think this fight exposed that there is a lean if you will, to the grappling and a hanicapping of the striking.

Matt you said it shows that skill overcomes size and strength, I contend it didn't really, BL was clearly overwhelming Mir, and if hadn't been on a mat with a ref, it would have been a quick end to Mir, even with BL, caveman like skill.
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#381564 - 02/04/08 10:34 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: BrianS]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

The only thing that saved Lessnar from losing sooner was his physical sive.





I would say the only thing that saved Mir was BL's sloppyness. He was doing a nice job of catching punches with his face for a while there.

Quote:

Chemo,

Are there any threads on here where you are not bitching and whining? Could you point me to them??




Ease up on the White Lighting there partner.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#381565 - 02/04/08 11:04 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I would say the only thing that saved Mir was BL's sloppyness. He was doing a nice job of catching punches with his face for a while there.





BL threw a lot of punches that connected. I didn't see any of them that had any power besides one or two hammerfists.

Quote:

Ease up on the White Lighting there partner.




NEVER!!!!!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#381566 - 02/04/08 11:07 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
BrianS Offline
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Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I mean certain strikes are not allowed and thus changed the likely outcome, it's like an extention of other points people have made where they say if you could ....then grapplers would lose a lot of their advantage.






I use to argue that point as well, but I think I was wrong. I don't believe the outcome would change at all if both were given the ability to do the same thing.

Quote:

True, but my point/opinion is that had this been a street fight, the outcome would have been different which strikes at the heart of being the most realistic, doesn't it?





Wrong, two demerits for you.

Quote:

Matt you said it shows that skill overcomes size and strength, I contend it didn't really, BL was clearly overwhelming Mir, and if hadn't been on a mat with a ref, it would have been a quick end to Mir, even with BL, caveman like skill.




I didn't see where Mir was ever hurt. Same outcome on the str33t IMO.

Chemo2007 is a crazy ninja!!!
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#381567 - 02/04/08 11:10 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
MattyChi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 177
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
Quote:


UFC has taken the fangs out of striking, rightly so. But by doing so it gives an advantage to some grappling techniques, to me it looked like Mir was able to submit BL because he was somewhat caged by the striking rules, while the grappling techniques are not caged.





How has disallowing blows to the back of the head taken the fangs out of striking? This statement baffles me. This has been mentioned several times, but boxing doesn't allow blows to the back of the head and boxing is a striking only sport? Boxing doesn't even allow elbows?

Also, after the temporary stoppage they pretty much reverted back to the same exact position, I think Mir actually took some worse shots after they ended back up on the ground again. I feel if there wasn't the temporary stoppage Mir would have worked his way out of the position anyway.

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#381568 - 02/04/08 11:48 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: BrianS]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I use to argue that point as well, but I think I was wrong. I don't believe the outcome would change at all if both were given the ability to do the same thing.





I really don't buy that at all, each skill set is different. So lets try this, they can have a grappling match, then a striking match, we score them on both and if they are tied, no holds barred as a rubber match!


Quote:

Wrong, two demerits for you.





See white lighting post above.

Quote:

I didn't see where Mir was ever hurt.




How about when BL was dribbling his head like Marcus Hayes...(PM me if you need to know who Marcus Hayes is

Quote:

Chemo2007 is a crazy ninja!!!




Master Farley taught me well...Brianson.
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#381569 - 02/04/08 11:55 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattyChi]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

How has disallowing blows to the back of the head taken the fangs out of striking? This statement baffles me




Thats only one rule of many.

Quote:

but boxing doesn't allow blows to the back of the head and boxing is a striking only sport?




Now you are baffling me, what does bringing up the ruleset of another sport have to do with this match? I am not advocating changing the rules, safety far out weighs everything else. I am just pondering how the rules are in conflict with the correct outcome of a sport fight.

Quote:

Also, after the temporary stoppage they pretty much reverted back to the same exact position




Maybe you should watch the fight. After the stoppage they were stood up it was a few seconds before they returned to the mat, and they returned because Mir chose too.
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#381570 - 02/05/08 12:34 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

I really don't see what you mean.




I mean certain strikes are not allowed and thus changed the likely outcome, it's like an extention of other points people have made where they say if you could ....then grapplers would lose a lot of their advantage.




No they wouldnt, because then such strikes would be available to them, a nd they would just use adapt their ground game to deal with, and set up the new range of possibilities. A change in rules never effects just one person in a sporting environment. Again, Pride allow 'stomping' of a grounded oponent, and knees to the head from the ground as well- it doesnt mean that all involved in Pride have just given up grappling in favour of a strike only approach, they just deal with these possibilities within their fight strategies.

Quote:

Matt you said it shows that skill overcomes size and strength, I contend it didn't really, BL was clearly overwhelming Mir, and if hadn't been on a mat with a ref, it would have been a quick end to Mir, even with BL, caveman like skill.




But it was on a mat with a ref. It was a professional fight. You might as well say 'Hatton would have beat Mayweather outside the ring, because he would have smashed a pint glass over his head'

In any fight sport, it is up to the competitor to know the rules, adapt to the rules, and make the rules work for them, or make their fighting style effective within those rules. With the UFC, it is professional, so its a fighters job to do all this. Brock got a great wake up call in this fight, and i am sure that he will focus and train harder at his weaknesses for the future.
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#381571 - 02/05/08 08:08 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Thank you Cord. Exactly what I mean!
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#381572 - 02/05/08 09:30 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

no one is claiming that the UFC is a street fight. But it is the closest thing you can get to, in pro sports.



True, but my point/opinion is that had this been a street fight, the outcome would have been different which strikes at the heart of being the most realistic, doesn't it?




You almost got this right Kimo. If this was a street fight then Mir would have pulled out at gun and shot Lesnar and all of this would be finished within a second and nobody would have needed to strike let alone go to the ground. If you want to compare everything to a street fight then compare it to a street fight; include weapons and include multiple opponents, include weather conditions, include cement and objects in the way. Do you for one think that Frank Mir doesn't know some dirty fighting that may have put Lesnar away early on the street?

Lesnar is a big boy and he has size and strength going for him. He may have been a top wrestler in his time but when watching his workout and kicking, they were not that good. In the fight his punching had no real power behind it especially for a guy that size. And obviously his ground game needs some work. Lesnar is a work in progress and will get better the more he trains and the more he fights. The key word is "fight" as these are fights and though they are a sport, meaning have rules to protect the fighters from very serious harm such as death, it is still a fight.

I expect more from Brock if he decides to continue with this as now he has a taste of what he is up against.
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#381573 - 02/05/08 10:59 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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From our friends at MartialTalk:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59687

Quote:

Brock Lesnar: $250,000
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira: $200,000
Tim Sylvia: $100,000
Frank Mir: $80,000
Nate Marquardt: $52,000
Ricardo Almeida: $40,000
Tyson Griffin: $36,000
Jeremy Horn: $25,000
Chris Lytle: $24,000
Rob Emerson: $16,000
Marvin Eastman: $14,000
Tim Boetsch: $12,000
Terry Martin: $12,000
Gleison Tibau: $11,000
David Heath: $6,000
Keita Nakamura: $5,000
Rob Yundt: $5,000
Kyle Bradley: $4,000






Note newbie Brock's pay out compared to champion Frank and Tim's - COMBINED! Dana's got some 'splaining to do!!!!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381574 - 02/05/08 11:06 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
:sigh:

Pulling out guns? Mayweather V Hatton? Are you guys even trying to understand where I am coming from here?

Did it not appear to you the Mir was completly overmatched right up until the end?

Did it not look to you as if BL could impose himself at will against Mir?

Maybe I am crazy, maybe Mir had BL right where he wanted him when he head was bouncing between his fist and the Mat.

I'll grant you BL's skills were lacking, fight should have been over in seconds with the openings he had.

I am not saying Mir didn't win the match, I am just saying it looked more like he escaped and that left me unsatisfied with the match.

PS Why do you guys always come at me in gangs, feels like someone is about to steal my lunch money.
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#381575 - 02/05/08 11:51 AM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

:sigh:

Pulling out guns? Mayweather V Hatton? Are you guys even trying to understand where I am coming from here?




I do understand where you are coming from- you feel the same way about this, as I do about the patriots not winning the 'bowl. If the Patriots winning season is compared to Brock's dominance in GNP, and then the Giants winning that one, most significant game is compared to Mir getting the submission against the trend of the fight, then you have and exact parallel.


Quote:

Did it not look to you as if BL could impose himself at will against Mir?




Looks are decieving. Clearly if that were the case, then Lesnar would have won. That is simple logic.

Quote:

Maybe I am crazy, maybe Mir had BL right where he wanted him when he head was bouncing between his fist and the Mat.




Maybe he did. Maybe, having felt the lack of power in the strikes, mir decided to eat a few knowing that Lesnar would focus and overcommit to this tactic, leaving his legs open to a reversal/submission. Never forget that in his prime, Mir was a champion, and considered one of the best ground fighters in the business. He only lost the title to a motorcycle, not a human.

Quote:

I'll grant you BL's skills were lacking, fight should have been over in seconds with the openings he had.




This is why he lost.

Quote:

I am not saying Mir didn't win the match, I am just saying it looked more like he escaped and that left me unsatisfied with the match.




So, would you feel the same way if he had got up and found a flash-KO by haymaker? or is it that you simply dont count pain compliance tapouts as a 'real' way to win a fight?

Quote:

PS Why do you guys always come at me in gangs, feels like someone is about to steal my lunch money.




People answer as individuals on here. If you make a post saying ice is hot, expect thousands to 'gang up' and point out your error. As it is, a tiny number of people have voiced simple disagreement with your opinion on the fight, or more accurately, your perception of what constitutes a fair and proper win.

Watch enough of any fight sport and you will see the unpredictability in its nature- its half the fun of it.
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#381576 - 02/05/08 12:11 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
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Brilliant post, Cord. Spot on again!

Kimo, not trying to "gang up" on you at all. Having done just a bit of BJJ/MMA myself, and having watched the UFC's from the beginning, my perspective is a bit different from yours. The type of victory you saw is actually not uncommon in MMA, and really not reflective of any "rules bias" in favor of grapplers. Google the Royce Gracie/Kimo Leopoldo match from the early, far less rule-restrictive UFC's. Kimo pounded the hell out of Gracie for the entire match, then BANG! Royce taps him out!

If anything, the rule changes "favor" strikers far more now than they did in the past ie; no-action stand-up rules. The unpredictabilty of MMA with "striker's luck" and "submission skill" is one of the things I really enjoy about it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381577 - 02/05/08 12:16 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Lesnar is huge he is obviously a very strong man Mir couldn't and was not even able to hold or pull him into a guard to stop the head punches. As for the rules saving Mir thats what they are for to abid by.

Though the tell of the tape showed 10lbs difference this was definitely a smaller man vs. bigger man fight strength wise Mir was out matched; skill wise I'd call even except for versitility Lesnar didn't have any idea how to counter a knee bar or leg lock.

Lesnar did show the amazing balance and control of a wrestler spinning in mount like a man half his weight (which still be 140lb after weigh in). He has powerful stand up didn't see enough to say it was skill standup but he was powerful.

I'd still say that he was a bust a like size and strength MMA would still beat him most time, being big and strong is not enough but like we saw hell it almost was.

That was another great victory for Frank Mir.


Edited by Neko456 (02/05/08 12:26 PM)

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#381578 - 02/05/08 12:39 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Neko456]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
http://uk.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=MultiMedia.video

check this for post fight interviews - if you havent allready - mir obviously had a game plan and he explains why he took a "couple" of shots heavy shots and what it felt like
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#381579 - 02/05/08 12:42 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

So, would you feel the same way if he had got up and found a flash-KO by haymaker? or is it that you simply dont count pain compliance tapouts as a 'real' way to win a fight?






No I would have felt the same.

Quote:

Looks are decieving. Clearly if that were the case, then Lesnar would have won. That is simple logic.





Maybe, but I sure felt a big OH SH** vibe coming from Mir. I think he knew the only way to win was a submission and I also think saw BL giving it to him, he chased that ankle/leg like his life depended on it.

I have seen plenty of fighters take beatings from strikers as a part of their tactic, Gracie in particular, but I felt this fight was different, usually in the other fights the grappler is controling the situation, in this match I felt BL was controlling, except when stopped trying to figure out what to do.

The whole reason I started commenting on the fight was because it was very different then any others I have seen. Granted you guys watch a lot more of these then I do.

Quote:

People answer as individuals on here.




Thats part of the evil deception, you travel in cyber packs waiting for the mighty buffulo to stay from the heard.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#381580 - 02/05/08 01:04 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
Also, if you get the chance watch the sylvia v nog post fight conference (featuring sylvia), sylvia is very humbling and at times very funny look out for the whole "i htae Jiu Jitsu" speech

If you take a stand up fight, and someone is being dominated and doesnt look like they have any answers then BANG lights out, the dominator gets KTFO, this happens on more than a few occasions, and this is similar to what happened to lesnar, its still a fight it just didnt turn out the way you thought was "fair" or a befiting victory.
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Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

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#381581 - 02/05/08 01:10 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Brilliant post, Cord. Spot on again!





It's spelled KIMO

Quote:

Google the Royce Gracie/Kimo Leopoldo match from the early, far less rule-restrictive




Couldn't find the video, at least not yet but I would like too, for some reason I don't recall seeing Kimo, didn't realize he was the one that knocked out Gracie of UFC III.
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#381582 - 02/05/08 01:26 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It's spelled KIMO






Quote:

Couldn't find the video, at least not yet but I would like too, for some reason I don't recall seeing Kimo, didn't realize he was the one that knocked out Gracie of UFC III.




Gracie didn't get KO'd, if that's what you mean. Although after defeating Kimo, Royce could not continue for the championship match against Ken Shamrock.

Royce was never KO'd in the UFC as far as I know.
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#381583 - 02/05/08 01:42 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Gracie didn't get KO'd, if that's what you mean.




I know he didn't get KO'd it was the format that required multiple fights in a night and he had broken a rib? He won the fight with a broken rib.

I believe he was undefeated with 1 tie (shamrock) until he lost to Hughes by TKO...I think.
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#381584 - 02/05/08 01:54 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

sylvia is very humbling and at times very funny look out for the whole "i htae Jiu Jitsu" speech





Love the I hate Jiu Jitsu speech, I feel his pain. I don't hate it, I just hate that I spent all those years training Karate and only minimal ground stuff, ever have one of those, uh oh I ain't quite the bad ass I thought I was moments...they suck, then you get on the mat and so OK, show me again how you wooped my ass so fast.

But I guess I am not the only one that has happend too.
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#381585 - 02/05/08 02:10 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
"But I guess I am not the only one that has happend too."

Nope! happened to me crossing over from Muay Thai.

I've been at it about 6 months and still get my a*% tapped out all over the place. But I am getting better. Perhaps thats why respect the way Mir won.
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#381586 - 02/05/08 03:23 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

PS Why do you guys always come at me in gangs, feels like someone is about to steal my lunch money.




Kimo, you should ask yourself that as if that is what you are perceiving then perhaps it is the because of you. I have found you very adversarial when posting, like you are looking for a discussion. You always like to disagree with people and that is fine, you are entitled to your opinions, but also realize others are as well. I'm sure you are right many times but then again you are not but you have the "I'll argue till my death even if I'm wrong" type of attitude.

Don't get me wrong, you make things interesting and though I'd like to cuff you upside the head from time to time I enjoy the discussions; no matter how irritated I get.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#381587 - 02/05/08 04:07 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I have found you very adversarial when posting




Actually that part of my post was more of a joke then anything but since a few folks have addressed it I'll respond.

I have to admit that at times I have overplayed my hand a bit, usually on purpose. This site has a personality and I know if I take a certain side I will get a response and a discussion will ensue.

That said for the most part, I back my postions still, there are a couple in hind sight I wish I hadn't pushed or even started, but then sometimes you shoot and score, sometimes you just shoot.

Quote:

I'll argue till my death even if I'm wrong" type of attitude.





I think I am passionate about what I believe and know, the problem is I am an oral debater, typing is not the best medium for me to make myself understood. A big part of the problem I have is often getting responses that in my mind seem like the person is not understanding what I am trying to convey.

If you all could just assimalte to my way of thinking, this would all be a lot easier, but then what fun would that be.

-Kimo
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#381588 - 02/05/08 04:28 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Exactly. I like you analogy of some times you shoot and score and sometimes you just shoot. Being a Canadian and hockey fan I can respect that especially since Alberta hometown hero and NHL great Wayne Gretzky said something similar such as "if you never shoot you will never score"; that touches so many things in life then just hockey. I look forward to future debates.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#381589 - 02/05/08 07:15 PM Re: UFC 81 (Definate Spoilers) [Re: Dereck]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
Your display of mutual respect for your respective internet forum debating skills warms my heart and brings a tear to my eye

although had this been a real debate without forum rules and moderators deducting points and issuing verbal tirades on virtual punches to the back of the head, i think the person with the bigger more whitty and offensive vocabulary would win a "real" debate any day.
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Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

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#381590 - 02/06/08 12:11 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: Kimo2007]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The Royce Gracie vs. Kimo fight was a pure example of heart vs. sure power. David vs. Golitha at close range withou the sling shot. Kimo was/is an awesome athletic specimen he was talented and skilled on the ground and standing.

Kimo was probably better skilled then Lesnar overall. Royce didn't stand a chance standup in my opinion. He barley survive fighting his fight, If Kimo wasn't trying to be so cute with that long ponytail. But If smith Royce outlasted Kimo and submitted him after a war of tactics.

Under the present rule of Standing the fighters back up if uneffective or holding for a opening. Royce might not have won, he was outweighted by more then 50lbs and Kimo was stronger. A brillant display of heart and tough training, having been beaten by his brothers and uncles over strength and near equal skills.

I can't take anything from Mir, Lesnar was a monster. Great show of skill.
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#381591 - 02/07/08 01:32 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: shills11]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Interview with referee Steve Mazzagatti about the Mir/Lesnar fight:

http://mmajunkie.com/2008/02/05/referee-...ecom-interview/
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#381592 - 02/07/08 01:47 PM Re: UFC 81 (possible Spoilers) [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Good stuff and I agree with the decision.
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