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#381281 - 02/08/08 10:01 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: Itami]
SNieves Offline

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
Itami: Here is my problem with the BBC scenario. If a person joins a school and sees all the cool black belts, what do you think the person wants? A black belt. So he joins and after a time is told: "well, if you want to show a dedication of your training, pay me $X more for this BBC program! It will get you on your way? Er, but wait, then what did I sign up for?? I thought I was already on my way to being a BB????"


Edited by SNieves (02/08/08 10:01 PM)

#423618 - 11/20/09 12:31 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: SNieves]
integrityma Offline

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 10
Loc: US
Some people WANT different things as a customer though. For instance, I've never super sized a value meal....or eaten one for that matter. But in the case of my students... if my students want to come and train, flat rate. But what if some of my students want more?

say my students need an extra day per week, so i have to open on sundays. What if some people are looking for more intense workouts? I cant have my students who are more casual, like the environment, want to learn a little, and just enjoy my company- thrown in with my full contact fighters. the fighters would get held back, and everyone else would be getting sick and dehydrated. I have to work harder to have more options.

the bottom line is, i can be a capitalist. everyone pays 80 a month. but for those who want to go balls to the wall and require more from me, can pay 100 per month. the extra cost is taken care of by those paying for it.

or i can be a socialist. everyones tuition will be 90 a month and the casual students will pay for the students with extra needs.

if i was going to do it that way, i could lump the total cost of instruction, gear, patches(i dont sell those) testings, seminars, (what else do schools charge for these days? foam nunchuck thingies?) into one sum, add on my rent and desired salary, and divide that by my number of students and wham...there's your number.

but if jimmy needs to replace his uniform more than other students, jimmy pays for it. and if my guys are going to need extra time in, they have to pay for it.

We do not live in 16th century japan. martial arts were from father to son. and the training facility was called 'outside'

i believe its pretty much the decent thing to do when i work fourteen hours a day and continue to teach and learn under several instructors, that if someone wants to train in my airconditioned matted facility, they pretty much have to pay for me not being able to have a job so i can teach them.

a fair bbc would just be for those who want more. and its not really elitest. im not better than the guy behind me at the drive thru because i can supersize my big mac. even if he's hungrier than me, he really isnt going to get that super size if he cant pay for the extra fries.
[url= ] IMA Warrior [/url]

#426356 - 04/06/10 01:08 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: Itami]
ScottBolinger Offline

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: Itami
I was wondering how many of you have seen/been a part of Black Belt Clubs, and what most are like out there?

From what I've read here, a lot are accelerated or 'fast track' paths to black belt by allowing students to come to more training sessions. I never really thought of it in a bad view like 'fast tracking' until I noticed people saying it cost more, often a substantial more, to be a part of BBC.

This got me really curious, because at my school we offer a BBC, which allows you to come to more training sessions a week and a 'special' class a month just for BBC members, but we don't charge a dime extra. Our biggest requirement is that you show you're dedicated with your actions, write a letter saying why you want to be a black belt and what your goals are in getting there, and for juniors we look at grades and have a talk with mom and dad about how little Jimmy is behaving at home.

I've just been part of one black belt club and that was when I was in Germany. And the way they had it set up, is at each training session, they'd switch off who teaches the class that way were all learning something from each art.
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#427334 - 05/23/10 09:52 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: cxt]
Jeff_G Offline

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 223
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: cxt

Like I said prior one of the problems with a business model for things like martial arts etc is that its framed as "all business" when it comes to students paying their dues/fees etc.
But its an "art with traditions" when it comes to pretty much any other aspect of training.

They are "customers" when it comes to paying their dues on time, but they are "students" that should be respectful and attentive otherwise.

As a SCUBA instructor I come across somewhat of a similar quandary from time to time. The bottom line is that I am paid to train you, not to sign your card. You don't do the required skills, you don't get the card/belt.

#427340 - 05/24/10 11:35 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: Jeff_G]
TaekwonDoFan Offline

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I've been to several schools, but I've never seen a BB club. I do think, however, that, if you accelerate your training by going to more classes, you should pay more. That is only fair. That said, I honestly don't see anyone being so talented that he can get a real black belt in one year, no matter how hard he trains. Skill, like life, takes time.

#427344 - 05/24/10 03:38 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I don't think extra practice should equate to extra money. Why should it? If I choose to attend my gym 7 days a week should I pay more? If I choose to attend my martial art school every day they have class why should I pay more?
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

#427374 - 05/26/10 12:02 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: JasonM]
TaekwonDoFan Offline

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: JasonM
I don't think extra practice should equate to extra money. Why should it? If I choose to attend my gym 7 days a week should I pay more? If I choose to attend my martial art school every day they have class why should I pay more?

Of course you should, because you're using up more of the instructor's time. And, if you take showers after every class, then you're using up more of the facilities.

A weight-lifting gym may be different, because there's no instructor. Or, to put it another way, if you had a personal trainer, and you used him more often, shouldn't you pay him more?

#427383 - 05/26/10 06:38 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
sorry, I came from old school or a small one where it wasn't always about the money and shower facilities in the dojo? really? Never had one...

Also, most gyms offer tons of additional classes that aren't extra. For example, in my gym you can take jujitsu, pilates, Spin, Zumba, Yoga, water aerobics, and those were to just name a few. They have tons more. And each of those classes has an instructor. At my gym, i pay 90 bucks a months and that includes my family, which is six strong. If I had to pay extra for my family and those classes I would go broke. Thank gawd my gym has some sense and not crazy like some dojos that charge to breather air in their classes.

Private lessons, are using up more of the instructors time, not necessarily groups classes. The class would be going on with or without you so why charge extra if someone decides to goto each group class offered?
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

#427419 - 05/27/10 05:11 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: JasonM]
WarblyDoo Offline

Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hello All

First let me preface this post with the fact that I worked it out and I made enough money teaching last year to cover the cost of my gas to classes every night. I am not making a living at it. My tiered pricing is purely for the benefit of my students.

I run a dojo through a local Uni which used to have a fixed price. We trained twice a week for 2 hours each class at a price of $23cad a month (this is less than half of what the local dojos charge for one hour classes, more than reasonable by any standard). Since I teach at a university my students school schedules would often include evening classes and I kept losing students because they suddenly had an evening class interfering with one of our evenings. Even though our classes are so cheap that they were getting their money's worth with one evening a week they would stop altogether. So I introduced a one day a week option to allow those people to continue training. So you see my higher price is not an attempt to milk people for more money, my lower price is an attempt to better accomodate my students needs.

The same argument can be made for a school which has an advanced class, or a come whenever you want option versus an X classes a week option.

People are wired to not want to pay for something if they can't take full advantage of it no matter how good the deal is. So by offering tiered pricing you allow people to pay for what is right for them without feeing guilty that they are missing out on something they paid for.

Though it sounds capitalistic to draw the comparison, how would you feel if you only watched basic cable but had to pay the same amount as the person who watches every channel (even if it meant you could have all those channels you never watch), or if you only used you cell for 30 minutes a month and had to pay the same as the guy who spends all day everyday surfing the web on his smartphone phone.

I know that people are going to say that martial arts is not like the cable company, or the cell company but your students/customers don't see that. People are trained by the world we live in to want to customize what they are paying for to their own needs and when the martial arts virgin first walks into your dojo they have no sense of that tradition which everyone here touts so highly so you need to bend to that need.

At the risk of the ensuing McDojo references. If McDonalds only offered the Big Mac for sale people would never go there. Some folks want only a cheeseburger and some folks want the Big Mac, others want the full meal deal. BTW I still never go there because it all tastes like cardboard, that's why you still need quality.

It's a matter of economics and psychology.

Bring on the flame.

#430909 - 11/15/10 07:24 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: cxt]
E.V. Offline

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 8
With ours you are allowed to come to more sessions but it's not extra money it's one fee to get in to the club and for the club uniform/patch but it actually gives you a discount on everything else from yearly payments and equipment purchases along with testing fees. So far in my school and those schools nation wide there has not been a student who did not eventually join the black belt club, it's simply logic join and save money lol.

Oh and you really couldn't accelerate how fast you get a belt. You could expand how much you learn but there are months spent training qualifications from belt to belt. It's also a full commitment to getting a black belt and is discouraged if one is not serious. You have to b at least green belt in my school to join.

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