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#381271 - 02/06/08 10:39 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: tkd_high_green]
SNieves Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
Quote:

So by your example, if you were one of the 10 BB's in that special class, that an hour of your instructors time, teaching you advanced material, is only worth $4 an hour to you? Wow, what a deal! I can't get group ski lessons for that price. For that matter, I can't even get a Big Mac for that price.
Is that what our instructors are really worth?

Laura




What someone's time is worth is relative to the person and the circumstance they are in. If you feel you can charge $40 per person and the next person only wants to charge $4, what's the problem with that? Everyone is entitled to charge what they want. Doesn't mean we have to agree with it and, utlimately, it's up to the consumer to want to spend the money.

My time IS valuable to me. I told 4 of my students last night if they can not behave and do what's expected of them in class, they can leave. I am not here to babysit or have mine or the other student's time wasted. I didn't mince words or say things like: "now, you know that's not appropriate behavior, let's try again and be happy, shall we??" Nope. I actually kicked one out of class and told him to come back with a better attitude. If he doesn't come back, his loss, not mine. The focus is learning our system. Not charging an extra $30 a month fee for a $2 patch.

Osu.

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#381272 - 02/06/08 10:48 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: tkd_high_green]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I only used the $4 base already built into the previous example. In that example, the teacher gets $40 total for that hour of training with other BB's. And make no mistake, at the level of BB...the teacher is also getting the opportunity to work on his skills with his advanced students. The learning is mutual at that point.

I don't know about anybody else's teachers, and I don't judge. As for what I think my instructor is worth...I think his time is beyond price. He only asks that one show up and practice. No money. If you don't practice, he'll know and tell you straight up, 'Don't waste my time.' Because he can, he teaches for free, and I don't know how I could compensate him for what I have learned.

Quote:

Quote:

As for 'black belt clubs'. Seems to me, that if one has so many students that it becomes appropriate to have a special time for 'bb and above training'...that it shouldn't cost any more. Unless, of course, one is using a space that requires payment for that hour. I think a class of 10 BB's could probably cough up...what $40??...between them for an hour of 'BB training'.





So by your example, if you were one of the 10 BB's in that special class, that an hour of your instructors time, teaching you advanced material, is only worth $4 an hour to you? Wow, what a deal! I can't get group ski lessons for that price. For that matter, I can't even get a Big Mac for that price.
Is that what our instructors are really worth?

Laura



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#381273 - 02/07/08 08:57 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: harlan]
SNieves Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
In conclusion:

Some feel the BBC is useful in motivating students and creating a new line of a cash for a Martial Arts business.

Others feel the BBC is all about the cash and doesn't add any real value to the martial arts program since that program should be adequate in and of itself.

That sound about right?

Osu

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#381274 - 02/07/08 09:13 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: SNieves]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
*whsipers* Just a reminder: the question only matters within the confines of systems that place emphasis on rank/use belt systems.

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#381275 - 02/07/08 09:49 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
H,
Not entirely. The question is in part how one identifies oneself and membership within a social construct. If you think about other clubs, i.e

Country club, Bridge club, Elks club, High Rollers club...

Each has attributes or experiences they value or deride. Each has different costs to belong and each has the potential to allow ourselves the opportunity to feel special by being a "part" of the group or less "special" by being "apart" from the group. What is the old Groucho Marx quote? "I would n't what anything to do with a club that would have me as a member".

Even if the only cost to belong is sincerity and hard work some can't afford or are unwilling or unable to pay their dues.
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#381276 - 02/07/08 09:56 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
True. But it's about 'BB clubs'. Nobody seems to want to join the 'green belt' club.

One can always expand the idea of 'clubs' to elitism within the martial arts.

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#381277 - 02/08/08 11:27 AM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: Itami]
sigung Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
A little bit of a traditional view of Black Belt Clubs. These are merely upgrade programs that require a bit more commitment on the part of both the student and the instructor. In truly traditional Chinese schools, there are those that are "paying customers" so to speak and those that are "initiate" students or life students of the Master. There are also students that are "initiate disciples." The difference between the initiate student and disciple is that the student is still a student, although VERY committed to the teacher and his teachings. The disciple is FAMILY to the instructor and to the student. The disciple owns the art because he will pass it to the next generation. In many circumstances, the disciple even gets to pick the various aspects of the art to study. (in consultation with the teacher).
I view Black Belt Clubs in the same context. The student commits for a longer period of time and they receive concrete benefits for doing so in my kwoon. We call it the Black Belt Training Program which I think is more indicative of what it really is, then there is Warrior Spirit Society training (Master's Club in many schools) this is yet another level of training which the students may pursue. For those that wish to seek more traditional levels of training, then I also offer the initiate experience. But selection for this training has nothing to do with the business side and more to do with my desire to work on the deepest levels with these students. I have more than 150 students at my school yet only 20 are initiate with 5 of those being disciples.








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#381278 - 02/08/08 12:09 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: sigung]
SNieves Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 76
Quote:

A little bit of a traditional view of Black Belt Clubs. These are merely upgrade programs that require a bit more commitment on the part of both the student and the instructor. In truly traditional Chinese schools, there are those that are "paying customers" so to speak and those that are "initiate" students or life students of the Master. There are also students that are "initiate disciples." The difference between the initiate student and disciple is that the student is still a student, although VERY committed to the teacher and his teachings. The disciple is FAMILY to the instructor and to the student. The disciple owns the art because he will pass it to the next generation. In many circumstances, the disciple even gets to pick the various aspects of the art to study. (in consultation with the teacher).
I view Black Belt Clubs in the same context. The student commits for a longer period of time and they receive concrete benefits for doing so in my kwoon. We call it the Black Belt Training Program which I think is more indicative of what it really is, then there is Warrior Spirit Society training (Master's Club in many schools) this is yet another level of training which the students may pursue. For those that wish to seek more traditional levels of training, then I also offer the initiate experience. But selection for this training has nothing to do with the business side and more to do with my desire to work on the deepest levels with these students. I have more than 150 students at my school yet only 20 are initiate with 5 of those being disciples.






So how much more does it cost to be an initiate, disciple or get into the master's program?

I know of a Matsumara Orthodox instructor in Yauco, Puerto Rico that has 2 disciples. I don't believe he charged them any different than the regular fee for the rest of his school. These were merely students that were exceptional and he asked to attend different classes for the additional training.

Osu.

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#381279 - 02/08/08 12:14 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: sigung]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
sigung

Interesting example.

And playing Devils Advoctate here---if I can borrow the hat from TKD for a minute.

Tell me though---can I become an "initiate disciple" and become part of the Masters "FAMILY" simply by paying him/her some extra money????

Should such a relationship be for sale?????

Or viewed another way---does a student that pays the extra fees and joins the Black Black Training Program have any reason to be upset or any recourse if they are NOT selcted to become "initiate" or "disciples" of the art by the Master?

Just to be curious---what are the "concrete benefits" of being in the "Black Belt Training Program?"

Or to view it another way---what would just a "normal" student be missing out on if they could not affrod to join the "Black Belt Training Program?"

No trying to offend anyone---just asking and were just talking here.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#381280 - 02/08/08 07:10 PM Re: "Black Belt Clubs" [Re: cxt]
Itami Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 14
This is a very interesting discussion, it's nice to see all these different views.

-If- we were to charge extra for BBC, I'm wondering if people would complain about it. I don't honestly think I'd feel good if I joined a martial arts school for $X/month, then find out if I want the 'complete package' it'd cost $X+$Y/month. But I'm betting this is just because I've been a part of it where it is free.

Now that I think about it, from a business perspective, I bet most people would just accept the extra cost as how the business works.

To go along with the discussion though, I don't know if I see it as unfair. Some of the local gyms offer an introductory price with restricted hours, and it limits the number of times you can come a week. For more a month, you can come anytime and as much as you want. And while there are people there to help you, it'll cost even more a month for personal training.

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