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#380798 - 02/08/08 08:18 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Sensei never dealt with why he changed from Sanchin Dai that had been adopted from Kyokushinkai when we spoke. As Soke felt that both the fist and the spear hand could not be used to best effect on hard points of the body, Leathernecks comments are salient. The dynamic tension in the form is for physical conditioning. Open hand vs closed; can create a different conditioning effect. The spear technique is directed at soft areas and pressure points, where the fist not necessary. Sensei did recognize the limited value of the fist in most situations ie you hit someone you injure your hand. In later years Soke no longer emphasized makiwara training.
Much of the open hand technique is dealing with break locks from early Isshin Shorinji. The opening, the cleans in the first set, the break holds after the parry/spearhand, the choke defense, the breaklock to wrist lock with punch. All good technique. All referenced in the original forms as well as in Soke's emphasis of daito ryu jujitsu taught earlier in Isshin Shorinji and continuing to evolve in Chris Vigianno's schools' teachings. Refer to the Sword and Stick Society's Neutralizing Methods Video on Youtube.
While a lot of the technique is referenced elsewhere in the remaining forms it is not addressed so directly as it is in Soke's Three Pillars.

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#380799 - 02/09/08 08:17 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I agree Neko, open hand technique that looks like spearhand attack is not always a hard spearhand strike.
I can do them to hard area's like ribs but only in a static environment and it seems to hurt. But to do real damage in the ribs in fighting I certainly adjust to keiko-(ippon)-ken. One knuckle strike.

Manny train sanchin as dynamic tension exercise but I think it also important to look at the fighting potential from the beginning. The origin of sanchin started as a fighting kata, not as a tension exercise. It's a fundamental (basic/kihon) kata but also basic towards fighting strategy and tactic in shorei-ryu.

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#380800 - 02/09/08 09:16 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: CVV]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
While I felt I addressed the technique in my post I failed to mention the 'tensioned muscle as the final defense' that was part of shorei and existed in many of the early forms not just in Okinawan systems. Looking back to China, the 18 forms of Shi Pai Lo Han emulated animals fighting but also incorporated tension for conditioning. Please excuse me as I suspect I have butchered the spelling and perhaps even the name.

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#380801 - 02/09/08 03:26 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
look at chinese form of dragon which is the first part of the Hung shaolin tiger-crane form which Bob taught . generating energy. the really important thing that these forms do is show you how to connect to your center and to use your body in a unified fashion. 'fight stories are more appropriate to other forms'. Sensei taught that ' the mind should stay calm and natural' in a combat situation and that to get hung up on this or that technique would hamper your bodies ability to react spontaneously in 'the moment'. to see more chinese history of this type of training look at the Hung style 'Iron thread' or 'Iron wire'

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#380802 - 02/12/08 07:41 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Tim, your last statement reported that the 'fight story' is appropriate for other forms, and that the mind should act calmly... I agree. However, I question the group how they perform their katas (individual defined movements, coordinated sets, blended movement, or other).

I was taught that katas' should be performed naturally. They should be performed like they were unrehearsed and occuring for the first time. That you are not acting but reacting (Sans Sanchin for obvious reasons).
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380803 - 02/12/08 03:06 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Carl:

Point of information: who was that on the film ? Approximately when, any idea?

Jeff

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#380804 - 02/12/08 03:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Carl:

A spear to the eyes...
the throat...
the solar plexus...
groin...

The lower we go the more the side of my hand gets used and put the weight of the body into the pelvic viscera ala Kusanku...

Don't see merit to the ~low spear~ below the solar plexus... too much material, clothing, body fat, intestines, asorted organs to go through to be an attack technique of any preference below at most the solar plexus

Upwards sure, downwards....

Jeff

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#380805 - 02/12/08 05:41 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ronin1966]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Jeff,
The man demonstrating the kata in the video is Soke Robert Murphy. The film was made in March and April of 2000. He was at that time recovering from a pretty bad fall on the ice out in our pasture.
Carl, a couple of thoughts on how I approach Sanchin. As Sanchin is more of a meditative form I don't tend to approach it from tabula rasa. I concentrate on breathing, tension, and locking the stance. The base and the center are so important in this form. A clear mind is essential but it is achieved through concentration more than spontaneity. A mind like still water. A mind like the moon light. Both metaphor for beginning to see all things through concentrating on the myriad of detail in one thing. In short this form has always been different. Through similar forms the monks stumbled across meditation in motion. The Shi Pa Lo Han was first for conditioning then self defense, and then meditation. With Sanchin you can evolve like the monks or intercept. Just a different junction on the path. With regard to the spear hands going low at the end Jeff we might consider that a block/trap of a limb thrown carelessly or left too long. Taken in context it is a high degree of difficulty strike to the point above the pubic arch which done properly could hurt an opponent or done by me would lead to a many broken fingers.
Russ

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#380806 - 02/12/08 06:00 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Personally I don't see the Sanchin of Goju Ryu (and the systems that work it that way) as an application led kata, say like Naihanchi.

However I do see it as a physical, mental and perhaps medative form used to develop and deploy energy, teach decent mechanics, build a strong body and mind etc etc.

I do personally work sanchin as I find it a great vehicle to explore white crane.

Now going back.............some of the white crane versions seem to have additional 'application' sequences added to the base sanchin kata, hence my point of view is based on the origonal quan being re-modeled to meet the Okinawan Goju Ryus requirements, and it would seem in many ways simplified for purpose. (not a bad thing)
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380807 - 02/12/08 06:43 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Jeff,
Glad to see you back on this thread... I will just say 'yeah, what paddles said'.

Jim,
I'm not terribly versed in 'White Crane' but I did find this on the web 'San Jan':
http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html
Interesting but too short for 'meditative' purposes or 'exploring'. Albeit, short and to the point (which in and of itself is outstanding). Do you have a reference for the 'additional application sequence' to sanchin?

(please forgive me for being short as I am starving and need substinance).
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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