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#380868 - 03/17/08 01:22 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
Chris Wissmann Offline

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
I've been out of town and had extremely limited internet access, so I'm sorry not to have recently weighed in.

To respond to a point above, I took and failed two semesters of Japanese in college in the late 1980s, so I’m acutely aware of how unqualified I am to address the kanji in our various patches. I will say that several people have diplomatically told me that there is a mistake in the kanji. Where and what the alleged mistake is I cannot say.

Shihan Cusumano noted the evolution of the system from when he started. There is also a divergence in how the Illinois and New Jersey branches of the system seemed to evolve. Our versions of kata— if I remember them correctly— are generally more linear, more direct, harder, and more forceful. Soke Murphy mentioned Moo Duk Kwan as influencing his adaptations of the Pinans; I have limited experience with this style of tae kwon do but would guess this inspiration is a little more prominent in the Illinois branch of the style. The kata Soke Murphy performs are more circular and have more soft and graceful movements, and in general are closer to Isshinryu and Goju than what we did.

In some places the bunkai are more obvious and in others less so.

How things may have changed in Chicago since I moved away, I can’t say.

In most places, though, the similarities are greater than the differences. I’ve seen several versions of Seiuchin, for example, and the one performed by Soke Murphy— particularly in the opening sequence— is closer to what we did than any I’ve seen.

Where there remains striking similarity is in the attention to detail and precision, in particular the pivoting of the foot, hips, and shoulders to drive techniques forward rather than relying on limb strength. This pronounced emphasis on torque was also present in a student of a student of Woodrow Jensen’s that I met by chance in Carbondale twenty years ago. The apples haven’t fallen far from the tree, though the branches have grown some distance from the trunk.

#380869 - 03/17/08 10:16 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
chris12 Offline

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

I have not studied Dog Boxing unfortunately Jude. I assume you have. Can you talk a little about your practice if you are a practitioner?

#380870 - 03/17/08 10:34 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

I have not studied Dog Boxing unfortunately Jude. I assume you have. Can you talk a little about your practice if you are a practitioner?

Hi Chris.

I am not a practioner of dog boxing. I might be if there was someone to teach it. But it seems there aren’t many. I will be at some time attempting to work out what a few of the forms are. It seems the Chinese masters looked down on ground fighting. It would also seem certain C.M.A's are in a bit of a mess as regards their own history and arts.

So have to look even further as regards where their arts came from.

At some time in the future that is.


I will say that several people have diplomatically told me that there is a mistake in the kanji. Where and what the alleged mistake is I cannot say.

I haven’t a clue about kanji. I think Ed referred to kanji.

I speak very little Japanese, it isn’t required here.

I did grasp some sentences at one time.
The difference in pronunciation can give a word a different meaning such as shoulder/ Auntie or something along those lines.


Edited by jude33 (03/17/08 10:44 AM)

#380871 - 03/17/08 10:50 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
chris12 Offline

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Soke always stressed similarities within hard styles and soft styles. One of his conclusive ideas in Isshin ShorinJi is that there are no differences. Although some people may look harder or softer it is the same, as what is done harder can be done softer and what is done softer can be do harder. The main point to understand is how you said it Chris, attention to detail. The understanding of cultivation and distribution of energy. So I beleive the evolution between NJ and IL in the end is really the same. We may perform a bit different but our understanding through Soke Murphy's teachings is mirrored. In my opinion.

#380872 - 03/17/08 06:30 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
wiggy Offline

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
For curiousity reasons, I wonder what other 'styles' you guys feel would be worth studying in order to compliment your studies... I know that some would say Tai Chi, while others would say GojuRyu. Soke Murphy might even say 'Boxing'... I personally like jujitsu (yes Chris I tend to go for the hard-line approach and need to 'soften' a little rather than just around my belly).
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

#380873 - 03/19/08 10:50 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Chris Wissmann Offline

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Just because I was exposed to these things doesn't mean I became good at them or even absorbed them, of course, and I'm certainly not good enough to say that my endorsement means anything, but here goes:

When I was training up north with Shihan Heriaud, the workouts mainly consisted of physical fitness, traditional punching and kicking drills, kata, and three-step and free sparring. There was a little judo and self-defense as well. It was a pretty well-rounded curriculum, and Shihan Heriaud augmented it through encouraging us to attend seminars and tournaments.

When I came to college at SIU, I think four things further helped round me out. I'm five feet, eleven inches tall and weigh about 130 pounds; I have trouble sparring against bigger opponents, and few of them are smaller than I am. I get bulldozed a lot. The things that have helped a little included:

Boxing. I never learned more valuable martial-arts information in such a short time than when working out with boxers. Bobbing and weaving and moving the head (we never did the latter in karate) was another way to get around stronger, more aggressive opponents. Learning how to throw a real jab and left hook was also a huge help (especially doubling up on these punches), as was proper body punching, which isn't anything like how we did it in karate. We cross our feet at times in karate to execute certain kicks, especially side kicks, but in boxing I learned how this can result in me getting my legs tangled and giving my opponents easy knockdowns. I also learned how to cut off the ring and, conversely, how to avoid getting cornered. Listening to boxing commentators like Emmanuel Stewart and Gil Clancy and watching top-level fighters helped me, among other things, to be more creative with hand combinations, pick up training methods, and much more.

Aikido. I was terrible at it because I had such a hard time suppressing my instinct to execute kicks under opponents' punches. I really wasn't open to all I was being taught; I was a little too young as a person and as a martial artist to accept training so contrary to what I felt good at. Someday, if my poor stomach can handle all the tumbling, I'd like to make a more serious attempt to learn aikido; I regret my earlier stubbornness because I now see the benefit of the many wonderful skills I simply refused to learn. But what I did glean at the time was how the footwork of aikido (irimi, tenkan, tenshin— moving at angles and around techniques) was a new way for me to slip away from oncoming attacks and create openings for counterattacks.

Bill Wallace. I went to a seminar in 1989, I believe, and he completely changed the way I think about kicking. Using Wallace's faster and more deceptive kicking style and unpredictable kick combinations could allow me to keep larger opponents on the outside, where I had a better chance. And I was so sore after the seminar that I couldn't compete in a tournament the next day, which also taught me how much I needed to improve my conditioning.

Thai kickboxing. I got to work out with a few Thais, and learning how they kicked was a massive help. Other than VERY light sparring, I never did any actual Muai Thai, and that style of kicking is sort of the antithesis of Wallace's method. I don't use it much even when I work the heavy bag. But knowing how to attack the legs, I think, is increasingly an essential and effective skill, and I'm glad I learned what I did of it.

#380874 - 03/19/08 04:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
chris12 Offline

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Good atuff Chris. It sounds like you are a Boxing fan, I am a huge boxing fan. Seems like more and more people are going towards MMA and getting away from Boxing (in my opinion MMA is more like WWF).
Soke Murphy always said that the hardest person to fight would be a boxer because they do very few movements over and over and are very balanced.
I would say that studying Akido would be a good idea. It is a great way to understand how to be more fluid. Traditional Jujitsu is almost the same just a bit more linear, I prefer it to Akido a bit more specially if you are starting out.
Not Brazilian Jujitsu Carl!!
Soke Murphy was not a big fan of kicking above the waist which is what Bill Wallace is largely known for. Soke's idea of how to keep larger people at bay is to study and understand timing and distance. His philosophy was that everyone regardless of size still need to travel from point A to point B, your responsibility would be to control your space and react accordingly.
Thai boxing, I would love to practice that. Bad arss mo fo's.

#380875 - 03/19/08 06:57 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
Bob would say high kicks are great for conditioning but for a real fight keeping both feet on the ground was a good idea. perhaps some one knows this story better than i. if so correct me.
Bob was at a tournament standing around with a number of legends when the topic of high kicks came up. one fellow started talking about how high kicks were slow and ineffective etc. when suddenly jhoon rhee jumped higher than the mans shoulder and kicked the smoke out of his mouth!! when he landed he said " you think high kick slow?' hah. jhoon told bob that jumping skills like this could be developed with just jumping on the balls of your feet a few times a day. bob was skeptical of about that.
sensei worshiper

#380876 - 03/19/08 07:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Chris, regarding your statement about moving from points A to B, I can still hear the words that Soke believed were key to any battle.." I RUN TO ATTACK, I RUN TO DEFEND".Very important advice for samurai and Okinawan peasants alike whose confrontations were up close with hand held weapons.

#380877 - 03/19/08 08:38 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
retsamdloneknurd Offline

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
yes . look at the second part of the essentials. all about running to fight. moving forward. either that for the Okinawans or being used for sword testing!

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