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#380758 - 01/30/08 09:58 AM Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
I have looked around and said 'Why isn't anyone starting a new thread... Why?'. And then I realized... I am someone!

Therefore please forgive me if this doesn't work the first time but I have tried to start a new thread that is not on the verge of being shut down. A new thread that can continue to DISCUSS the system we have known to call our own: Isshinshorinji Ryu Okinawa-Te.

I would like to set the most basic of ground rules.

Be respectful to each other! If not then take it to a private message or a back alley somewhere.

Video of our founding father doing kata can be seen here (thanks to Russ Tippett):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwGQhY7GN_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25pzKHHhIw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X3WusnCSRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktweyig3fjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY-fJDlcreY


Carl


Edited by wiggy (01/30/08 10:15 AM)
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380759 - 01/30/08 12:59 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Carl,

Well done for starting the thread.

You guys and gals are most welcome here, one thing that would please me greatly would be to see this thread run well and also for you to all begin to contribute more to the site by entering other threads to discuss karate, kata, weapons etc etc.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380760 - 01/30/08 01:09 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Thank you Jim,

I try to contribute when, where, and if I can. If it is not here it is usually under the strengthening/medical section...
I would also like for others to know of a good topic being discussed which coincides with our previous discussion of Sanchin Dai.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...amp;Search=true

I would also like Chris Wissman to know that the answer to his question about the origins of our version is still being researched and not forgotten.

Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380761 - 01/31/08 10:18 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
I thought I would post two weapon forms today. They are Bo Tokumi and Bo Shishi.

Tokumi bo

Shishi bo

I will try to get urashi bo up before long. I know its hard to believe but the video quality is worse. I do not have video of the jo forms. It is my hope that others do and can post them.
Russ

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#380762 - 01/31/08 05:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Found another example of Soke doing Shishi Bo and thought I'd put that up instead. Sorry I was too late to edit my original post.
Russ

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#380763 - 01/31/08 07:19 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Please excuse me for dropping the earlier Shishi bo form. I have uploaded it again and it is available HERE .
Russ

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#380764 - 01/31/08 07:58 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
D_Royce Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 8
Interesting beginning to the form.
We usually start our bo forms from a static position.
Also nice to see that no animals were hurt during the making of this film!
D-

P.S. Glad to see you guys have taken the high road on this topic!

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#380765 - 02/01/08 10:58 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: D_Royce]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
yes . i believe Bob added this when he was living in idaho with russ where this was filmed . he said in keeping with the idea that the bo was often used as a walking stick in the mountains he would create a scenario where he was walking through the mountains and was confronted. i like it.
timo

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#380766 - 02/01/08 11:06 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
thanks so much russ for taking the time to share all of this rare footage.
i wonder if something could be organized for the various tribes under the isshin shorinji banner to pow wow for a few days. maybe outside somewhere.

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#380767 - 02/01/08 12:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

he said in keeping with the idea that the bo was often used as a walking stick in the mountains




Good to hear from you on this thread Tim.
I thought it was supposed to simulate carrying something on it's end like water. If it is supposed to be a walking stick then why is it on his shoulder?
In any case, I like the variation as well!
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380768 - 02/01/08 12:46 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
the way i picture it, he is walking on a even path not needing the bo's support when suddenly..... it might be difficult to toss a bucket with the way he 'whips it out' . do try walking in the woods with your bo. you can easily cross small stream beds in a single bound and lower yourself off precipices with ease. handy tool that!

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#380769 - 02/01/08 08:22 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
I am posting my video of Soke doing the Essentials and Intuitive Set. The video's I have posted here are representative of what I recorded while Soke lived with us. I am posting them to ensure that all of you that learned from him or from those he taught will have an opportunity to get to know him a little better. I regret that the quality is not up to even home movie standards and that I didn't take more. Please enjoy them. I am posting these with the hope that they will begin a discussion that all will contribute to so that all may develop a deeper understanding of our art.
Both Bob and I recognized that I represented a branch of the Isshin Shorinji tree that would not bear fruit ie I would not teach. So my value to the system is indeed limited. I do feel however that my friend left these tapes in my care to ensure that all of you would have them. I am sorry that I can not provide Urashi Bo. I managed to mess the original up beyond recovery. It was Soke's feeling that Urashi was the least important of the bo forms as the two I have posted contain the concepts taught in Urashi. The Urashi Soke did in 2000 was the Urashi I learned in the late 60's then did in Isshin Ryu under Grand Master Best and in Okinawa. I hope others will be able to provide information on this form as well as the jo forms I failed to record. I wish you all well.
Russ

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#380770 - 02/02/08 04:43 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Here's a question:

We used to wear these two patches on our gis. Did Soke Murphy design them? Did he ever discontinue using them? (I assume so, since I heard he eventually had students wear street clothes during classes. Please feel free to clarify or correct that statement!)

Some of the symbolism in the patches is obvious— the use of the Tao, for example. But what symbolism is perhaps less overt? Why the use of brown (two shades, no less) in the first logo, for example?

Insights, please!



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#380771 - 02/02/08 08:51 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
i do know that the yin and yang is offset in the circle to imply movement. he later drew a patch with a white dragon holding the yin yang sphere upon a blue background . there is a second head at the end of its tail. the American Bushido group

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#380772 - 02/02/08 09:02 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
as i was saying, the american bushido group worked out in black combat fatigues with an eagle's head for an arm patch. the three apprentices and a few others trained in street clothes in keeping with the idea that wherever the martial arts spread, people practiced in the attire of that region. another may know better but soke was a visual artist and i believe the patch was just supposed to 'look sharp'.

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#380773 - 02/02/08 11:02 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Carl,' I hope you are successful in attracting positive input to this thread.I intend to offer a few tidbits of history I have with Soke and our system.
Jim S.

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#380774 - 02/02/08 11:43 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
I'd be really curious to see some of those other patches.

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#380775 - 02/03/08 03:27 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
yes cris, it may take a couple days but it shall be done. there is also an interesting karate international patch buried somewhere which may have been my fathers. i think its in the attic with my ninja outfit.

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#380776 - 02/03/08 06:53 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Chris,
In addition to the one you posted, following are a few of the patches associated with our system or that Soke designed.


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#380777 - 02/03/08 06:55 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45

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#380778 - 02/03/08 06:59 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45

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#380779 - 02/03/08 10:47 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Soke Murphy obviously enjoyed graphic design. Did he go to college to help learn or improve these skills, or was he entirely self-taught? Did he ever do design work professionally?

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#380780 - 02/03/08 12:25 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
I know he did some work in the Corps. Maybe revisions to the Landing Party Manual. I remember him saying that he had something to do with the yellow footprints that new recruits re introduced to on their arrival at PI.

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#380781 - 02/04/08 01:37 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Welcome back Jim!... Welcome Chris!... Thank you Russ and Tim for posting the patches.

Chris, from what I can remember about the blue patch with the two headed dragon; The artwork was drawn by one of his students in the Parsippany dojo. The kanji symbols on this is the same as on the brown patch saying "Isshinshorinji Ryu Okinawa-Te". Note the dragon only has 3 legs emphasizing the value of the number 3 (take it for what you want, 3 pillars, mind/body/spirit, etc...), the dragon is stepping out of the yin/yang circle, and the two heads indicating an attack is possible from both sides.

I'm not sure why he chose the colors for the one's you posted. I figure since it was designed back in the day, brown and yellow were very popular.

Regarding the eagle patch Russ placed over the Society of Black Belts patch. I know that it is what Soke wanted to start using along with another one... Russ, is this a new one for you or did you have it before?

Regarding the Academy of Martial arts patch; the symbol in the middle has something to do with a particular weapon... I'll think about it a little more but want to emphasize that 'symbolism' was not stressed in my training as much as application, theory, and form were.

Soke loved his eagles and the symbolism with america. He emphasized the fact that we are in the US and should talk, dress, and name things as such. He emphasized practicality and de-emphasized 'tradition for tradition's sake'... On a side note, I wonder why he didn't use a patch with a black lab on it as he also loved his dogs!?

But I'm glad things are picking up with regards to discussion again!

Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380782 - 02/04/08 02:12 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
The only patch we had was the one that Chris Wissman posted.
Sensei gave me the others when he was up here. I think the eagles were meant to be shoulder insignia on a black uniform.

The dragon heads complement the blue isshin Shorinji patch. The SBBA was not something that stayed with us for reasons discussed in another thread. I included it because I think it was Soke's design.
Russ

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#380783 - 02/04/08 02:52 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
i am pretty sure Bob said he drew the blue dragon patch.
o.k. here is your sanchin story.
Bob and i are driving around one day in his big old truck talking about things like punching ferocious bulls in the head and Mas Oyama. he said that he was at a demonstration where Mr. Oyama performed sanchin with a tensho section slapped right in the middle and he just thought that was something.
he liked it so much that he assimilated it into the system.
chris, yes he did go to art school and did this as a profession in his younger days i believe.
i still have a couple of those early 80's v-neck canvas pullover tunic gi's that Soke designed. the two round blue patches were sewn above each breast.

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#380784 - 02/04/08 03:18 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
That pretty much explains why I thought there was a Kyokushinkai connection. Never saw the V neck tunic though.
I missed answering a post from a few days ago about a pow wow of the tribes.
I assume by the western metaphor that you are thinking of maybe Idaho?

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#380785 - 02/04/08 04:26 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
sn7ns Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 23
I dont that Mr Murphy was the real creator of the isshin shorin ji ryu system
It was a dropped system in okinowa
As said in the Asian Fighting Arts

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#380786 - 02/04/08 04:44 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
SN7NS,
Did you read (albeit) the previous threads in its entirety?
In short, it said that the one in the Draegger book is not the one we are discussing... You study under Chirico... Did you ask him these questions? If so, what did he say?
Also, what is Master Chirico up to these days?
Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380787 - 02/04/08 05:50 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Son,
At the risk of being redundant, a number of people including Dr Vigianno and I have tried to explain how our system originated. If you choose to ignore our explanation and that of your Sensei Master Chirico there is nothing more that we can possibly do for you. I am sure that I speak for everyone on both this and the previous thread when I ask you to please stop asking the same question. Our answer will never change. Should you be interested in discussing technique or the differences between the video's we have posted and that which you have learned from your Sensei, I feel sure that between us we can provide, if not an answer, a number of pretty good opinions. If you wish to discuss this please feel free to send me a personal message. I wish you well.

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#380788 - 02/05/08 08:15 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm not sure I know what a 'pow wow' is but I'm up for it!
I would like to suggest somewhere warm and exotic.... Perhaps the U.S. Virgin Islands?..... Disneyland?..... O.K., I'm up for most anywhere.... I would have to make it an extended weekend for obvious reasons.... Can I bring my batman sleeping blanket?
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380789 - 02/05/08 12:23 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
yeah. find a field or a beach somewhere. sit around the campfire sipping beers and swapping stories. practice during the day. macrame classes and drum circles....i don't know what you guys like to do.

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#380790 - 02/06/08 06:03 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm curious as to the present day practitioners' feelings on Sanchin with the spearhand.

I am not a fan of it because I have not strengthened my fingers in the hot sands over and over again and will just hurt myself if striking someone like that . Instead, I prefer the closed fist... I still practice the form as Soke shows it on Russ' post but want to know what you guys think.
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380791 - 02/06/08 09:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Carl,
this might be a good time to invest in a new bucket and some sand and get after those tender fingers!Just a thought.
Seriously,I believe that Soke would encourage both fist and spear being practised by those who grew up using fists.I like the changes .We all know that changes occurred over the years as he continually refined and altered what he believed was the best interpretation and technique.I will practice both as I believe he would encourage.It can only enhance my study.
Considering how long Soke taught and how many good practitioners were influenced, try to imagine how many changes he made in his art? I, for one, believe that is ability and willingness to make changes made his offerings the best available.We all benefit from the wide spectrum of techniques and strategies we were exposed to through his teaching.

A TREE THAT WILL NOT BEND CANNOT ENDURE A STRONG WIND.

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#380792 - 02/07/08 02:15 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Excellent point Jim! But the question I was too subtle in asking was what are your thoughts on spearhand and its applications?

I am looking directly at a spearhand and not a ridgehand or knifehand... I can see using a spearhand to the throat but little else... I understand that a spearhand can work its way into a rolled punch or to grab behind the ribs. But as a strike in itself it seems a little less efficient…. Maybe that is the point? To provide a set up for something else?... Doubtful, but I'm willing to entertain any thoughts on this.

Anyone?

Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380793 - 02/07/08 07:59 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Carl,
It is really a moot point.I don't see how the type of strike influences the rest of the kata...both are linear thrusts.I am pretty sure all other control points would be the same so you have options at the last possible instant.In terms of practice I like it.Of course, I would prefer in almost every scenario to deliver a fist for maximum effect and to also protect my hands.
I also feel that Soke Murphy would have encouraged black belts that had "grown up" using closed fists in Sanchin to adapt the change as primary, but continue to train both ways.It could only be to our benefit. Just my dos centavos!

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#380794 - 02/08/08 06:16 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Spearhand to throat (CV22) or neck (S9) would work if you are accurate and you do not need conditioning for this. Sand buckets will surely wreck your finger joints though, if you want to use them for anything other than striking. Out of interest why did your founder introduce spearhand to the kata? I have rarely seen any martial arts teacher who sees it as particularly practical over say standard fist, palm or one knuckle fist. I know a White Crane teacher from Singapore, an excellent technician now in his 50's, who tried to break boards with his fingers, which he did, but he broke his fingers in the process...

B.

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#380795 - 02/08/08 07:07 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Barad]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Also can use spearhand to eyes and groin. To just 'touch'is already enough to distract and make opponent loose focus.

I train fingers just by fingertip push-ups. Would never try to break boards with it though. But I have seen demo's where it is done. I think you need to condition more than just fingertip pushups to achieve that.

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#380796 - 02/08/08 10:01 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: CVV]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Agreed, eyes are also good. Personally I slap or palm to the groin, although it looks a bit like palm up spearhand in the kata. I practice a lot of distraction to the eyes but it usually take the form of a slap or flicking fingers rather than a straight thrust but each to his own...

B.

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#380797 - 02/08/08 11:47 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
As you know Goju-ryu uses close and open hand techinques in Sanchin. I beleive the use of that spearhand technique is dual purpose some people only look at it as a strike. The openhand motion near the end of Goju's Sanchin I see various use for it. It is a in and the out and away move. In that it could be a hold like the fish hook or collar choke. Of course the obvious ribs, eye and throat strikes.

I also see the spearhand motion as a Okinawan or body based strike along with body conditioning. The Uechi version of all open hand Sanchin is based on pressure point striking and as mentioned above more easier conditioned and performed as a Asian in that their fingers are not as staggered as ours. I've noticed that some Asian (and some others) fingers can be held to make a solid 3 to 4 point strike making for a more powerful strike.

I've seen some that can and could break 2-3" of wood if your hand was configured that way. This is not a racist or pro Asian statement just a near fact. I have long big staggered fingers so in application against harder surfaces I use extended knuckle strikes.


Edited by Neko456 (02/08/08 11:52 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#380798 - 02/08/08 08:18 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Sensei never dealt with why he changed from Sanchin Dai that had been adopted from Kyokushinkai when we spoke. As Soke felt that both the fist and the spear hand could not be used to best effect on hard points of the body, Leathernecks comments are salient. The dynamic tension in the form is for physical conditioning. Open hand vs closed; can create a different conditioning effect. The spear technique is directed at soft areas and pressure points, where the fist not necessary. Sensei did recognize the limited value of the fist in most situations ie you hit someone you injure your hand. In later years Soke no longer emphasized makiwara training.
Much of the open hand technique is dealing with break locks from early Isshin Shorinji. The opening, the cleans in the first set, the break holds after the parry/spearhand, the choke defense, the breaklock to wrist lock with punch. All good technique. All referenced in the original forms as well as in Soke's emphasis of daito ryu jujitsu taught earlier in Isshin Shorinji and continuing to evolve in Chris Vigianno's schools' teachings. Refer to the Sword and Stick Society's Neutralizing Methods Video on Youtube.
While a lot of the technique is referenced elsewhere in the remaining forms it is not addressed so directly as it is in Soke's Three Pillars.

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#380799 - 02/09/08 08:17 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline
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I agree Neko, open hand technique that looks like spearhand attack is not always a hard spearhand strike.
I can do them to hard area's like ribs but only in a static environment and it seems to hurt. But to do real damage in the ribs in fighting I certainly adjust to keiko-(ippon)-ken. One knuckle strike.

Manny train sanchin as dynamic tension exercise but I think it also important to look at the fighting potential from the beginning. The origin of sanchin started as a fighting kata, not as a tension exercise. It's a fundamental (basic/kihon) kata but also basic towards fighting strategy and tactic in shorei-ryu.

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#380800 - 02/09/08 09:16 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: CVV]
paddles Offline
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While I felt I addressed the technique in my post I failed to mention the 'tensioned muscle as the final defense' that was part of shorei and existed in many of the early forms not just in Okinawan systems. Looking back to China, the 18 forms of Shi Pai Lo Han emulated animals fighting but also incorporated tension for conditioning. Please excuse me as I suspect I have butchered the spelling and perhaps even the name.

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#380801 - 02/09/08 03:26 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
look at chinese form of dragon which is the first part of the Hung shaolin tiger-crane form which Bob taught . generating energy. the really important thing that these forms do is show you how to connect to your center and to use your body in a unified fashion. 'fight stories are more appropriate to other forms'. Sensei taught that ' the mind should stay calm and natural' in a combat situation and that to get hung up on this or that technique would hamper your bodies ability to react spontaneously in 'the moment'. to see more chinese history of this type of training look at the Hung style 'Iron thread' or 'Iron wire'

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#380802 - 02/12/08 07:41 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
wiggy Offline
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Tim, your last statement reported that the 'fight story' is appropriate for other forms, and that the mind should act calmly... I agree. However, I question the group how they perform their katas (individual defined movements, coordinated sets, blended movement, or other).

I was taught that katas' should be performed naturally. They should be performed like they were unrehearsed and occuring for the first time. That you are not acting but reacting (Sans Sanchin for obvious reasons).
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380803 - 02/12/08 03:06 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
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Hello Carl:

Point of information: who was that on the film ? Approximately when, any idea?

Jeff

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#380804 - 02/12/08 03:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Carl:

A spear to the eyes...
the throat...
the solar plexus...
groin...

The lower we go the more the side of my hand gets used and put the weight of the body into the pelvic viscera ala Kusanku...

Don't see merit to the ~low spear~ below the solar plexus... too much material, clothing, body fat, intestines, asorted organs to go through to be an attack technique of any preference below at most the solar plexus

Upwards sure, downwards....

Jeff

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#380805 - 02/12/08 05:41 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ronin1966]
paddles Offline
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Posts: 45
Jeff,
The man demonstrating the kata in the video is Soke Robert Murphy. The film was made in March and April of 2000. He was at that time recovering from a pretty bad fall on the ice out in our pasture.
Carl, a couple of thoughts on how I approach Sanchin. As Sanchin is more of a meditative form I don't tend to approach it from tabula rasa. I concentrate on breathing, tension, and locking the stance. The base and the center are so important in this form. A clear mind is essential but it is achieved through concentration more than spontaneity. A mind like still water. A mind like the moon light. Both metaphor for beginning to see all things through concentrating on the myriad of detail in one thing. In short this form has always been different. Through similar forms the monks stumbled across meditation in motion. The Shi Pa Lo Han was first for conditioning then self defense, and then meditation. With Sanchin you can evolve like the monks or intercept. Just a different junction on the path. With regard to the spear hands going low at the end Jeff we might consider that a block/trap of a limb thrown carelessly or left too long. Taken in context it is a high degree of difficulty strike to the point above the pubic arch which done properly could hurt an opponent or done by me would lead to a many broken fingers.
Russ

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#380806 - 02/12/08 06:00 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
shoshinkan Offline
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Personally I don't see the Sanchin of Goju Ryu (and the systems that work it that way) as an application led kata, say like Naihanchi.

However I do see it as a physical, mental and perhaps medative form used to develop and deploy energy, teach decent mechanics, build a strong body and mind etc etc.

I do personally work sanchin as I find it a great vehicle to explore white crane.

Now going back.............some of the white crane versions seem to have additional 'application' sequences added to the base sanchin kata, hence my point of view is based on the origonal quan being re-modeled to meet the Okinawan Goju Ryus requirements, and it would seem in many ways simplified for purpose. (not a bad thing)
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380807 - 02/12/08 06:43 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
wiggy Offline
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Loc: Massachusetts
Jeff,
Glad to see you back on this thread... I will just say 'yeah, what paddles said'.

Jim,
I'm not terribly versed in 'White Crane' but I did find this on the web 'San Jan':
http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html
Interesting but too short for 'meditative' purposes or 'exploring'. Albeit, short and to the point (which in and of itself is outstanding). Do you have a reference for the 'additional application sequence' to sanchin?

(please forgive me for being short as I am starving and need substinance).
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380808 - 02/13/08 03:22 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
shoshinkan Offline
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Wiggy,

My comments on the base sanchin delivery really are meant to say that many other quan/kata seem to use this as a base to work from, and then add additional techniques that are worked in a more application based speed.

a good example would be seisan kata.

Im sure there are accounts of Goju students going up and down the dojo, for extended periods of time working the basic sanchin sequence - this is where my comments re medative quality comes into play, along with the physical/mental development and energy generation and delivery qualities become apparent, well to me anyway !

To be clear I see some application messages in sanchin base sequence, i just don't think it leads with that but its there, others (like victor) have a mountain of application that works just fine from the sanchin base kata.

sanchin and its chinese origin are without doubt the basic and advance excersise of southern chinese kung fu hence its significance to many.

i recently had the honour of seeing 2 white crane masters, a goju master and an uechi ryu master perform their sanchin together side by side, for me the uechi ryu sanchin was much closer in technique and intent (perhaps a mid way point of reference) than the Goju Ryu version which had clearly a different emphasis going on.

Heres the clip -


http://media.putfile.com/Sanchin-4-Masters-2007


enjoy !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380809 - 02/13/08 06:57 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
CVV Offline
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Within goju-ryu sects, 2 main versions of sanchin are practised. Higashiaonna sanchin(with turns) and Miyagi sanchin
(without turns).
The Higashiaonna sanchin is practised somewhat faster than the other. It is said that Higashiaonna sanchin was trained with applications. But it is true that these applications come back in other goju-ryu kata.
Still for both versions, training emphasis is on body/mind/spirit.

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#380810 - 02/13/08 08:59 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: CVV]
sn7ns Offline
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Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 23
does anyone know seisan mean

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#380811 - 02/14/08 06:23 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
CVV Offline
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Seisan means 13.
Some say the kata orginally had 13 techniques.
Some say it refers to a lucky number (for the Chinese 13 is a lucky number).

Many kata are releted to numbers, most names are linked to buddhist mythology. These are :
seipai (18)
sanseru(36)
niseichi(24, also known as nijushiho))
useichi(54, also known as gojushiho)
suprinpei(108, also known as pechurrin)

Others are just numbers like:
seisan(13)
nepai(28)

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#380812 - 02/16/08 04:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: CVV]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
hey carl, finally getting back to you. i have been fairly busy getting my butt whipped by an old chinese fellow i met in the park by the ocean here in hawaii.
he speaks no english and his tai chi, ba gua , and xing yi are outstanding. he slapped my hand the other day and i sniffled like a little girl.
sanchin is the basis for all my practice. sensei would say it was " meant for novice and highly advanced students'. his version shows many basic techniques and ideas. he would say 'the hands are not the hard part' and show how the breath begins as a bellows in the hara and draws everything unto itself. that is why it can take a lifetime to master this form. all of the muscles in the body must expand and constrict towards the center, at first with the in and out breath and when you get more control just to breathe. all of this happens in a wave like fashion like rippling water from a stone or a jellyfish. the damned hard part is tying every muscle in your body into the center. the feet and legs twist. hands, arms, shoulders, ribcage all the way to the top of the head including facial muscles. the point between your eyebrows, the centerline, and of course your center are crucial and when they link up you have magic. you can do anything with your hands after you figure that bit out. put this into all of your forms and watch what happens. as far as forms go, i would say to break them down to the most minute movement. figure out as many applications as you can think of, throwing,striking,etc. do it slow. do it fast, try it with a bounce like a boxer. dress up like a tart or a marine. make it second nature a then the only thing you can do is ' act naturally'

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#380813 - 02/17/08 11:10 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
chris12 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Since you guys are talking about Sanchin, I thought you would enjoy this clip from Souther Praying Mantis.

http://www.motleyhealth.com/martial-arts-chow-gar-sarn-bo-jin.html

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#380814 - 02/17/08 12:17 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
great clip. i love the bored looking woman in the background. i remember sensei talking about how much chinto was influenced by northern mantis. a friend who lived and studied in china showed my a rare mantis form that had many similar moves to chinto.

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#380815 - 02/18/08 12:53 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
Chris Wissmann Offline
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Posts: 60
The discussion seems to have veered away from Isshin Shorinjiryu and into Sanchin. I hope it is not pretentious of me to offer a question designed to tie the two together:

What was the most important thing Soke Murphy told you about this Sanchin-Dai?

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#380816 - 02/18/08 01:15 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
wiggy Offline
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Loc: Massachusetts
Chris,

Actually I am going to disagree with you as I feel Sanchin is a part of IsshinShoriji. But it does bring about the question; ‘what is IsshinShorinji Ryu’ to you?’.

But take it as you wish as this forum is open to all... Post the questions and comments as you see fit.


I actually think that Tim brought up the most important thing that Soke told us. That is, not the footwork or the application, but the tension… Tying every part of the body from the core outward to the strike…. I remember him emphasizing the fact that everything is loose until impact. Then, everything is tense… Then loose again.

Soke liked Sanchin for the strengthening emphasis. But let me please emphasize a little medical warning here…… BREATHE!!!!!!!!! Do not hold your breath during Sanchin as it raises the blood pressure in what is known as a ‘valsalva’ maneuver.

Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380817 - 02/18/08 05:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
i mentioned that you expand the belly while breathing in and exhale pulling the belly towards the spine. this breath is a central theme of isshan shorinji. it was one of the first things that we were taught and was continually emphasized throughout our training with soke. i don't think you can find the essence of what bob was trying to teach without seriously working with this form. sensei laughed when he told me that the in breath and out breath were a great place to start but after many years you could breath any way you pleased...... but if you don't breathe you'll die. Ha. ha. he also said that they did it way too strong in the early days and that it didn't need to be done with that intensity to get the benefit. also, don' t spread the feet too far apart or you will damage the knees. the more speed you generate the more power you will produce. this takes being very loose and also having the ability to stop in a safe place so that your body wont injure itself.
sanchin works that also. to answer your question more directly chris; keep going back to basics and keep working this breath.
timo

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#380818 - 02/19/08 09:57 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
paddles Offline
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Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Chris,
It is safe to say that this Sanchin is part of the foundation of Isshin Shorinji. So no discussion of the system is complete without a serious look at the form.
While we did Sanchin Dai quite a bit harder, the common theme was that Sanchin teaches different things at different stages in ones training. One thing that Sensei always said was that Sanchin was a form that would take a lifetime to learn. In both forms there was a melding of heavy tension and soft fast technique with the hands/arms. One notes a greater emphasis on the soft in the later form. While Sensei de-emphasized the hands in the form, he continued to modify hand technique over the years as he explored the roots of power. The hand technique that remains could be looked at not from a bunkai perspective but in how execution of the hand technique effects the form. Tim pointed out that Sensei said 'it does not matter what the hands do'. Maybe not what but how? How do they move, where is the connection? Another thing that Tim mentioned that tickled a neuron was Sensei's comment on breathing. Sensei used to speak of 'baby's breath' ie circular or natural breathing as a goal. Any of you remember this?
Russ

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#380819 - 02/20/08 10:59 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
Chris Wissmann Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Many thanks for the gentle but informative responses to a question based on my ill-thought-out premise!

May I ask about Shihohai? It's a fairly rare form. In fact, I've not seen it in styles other than in ours and in Chitoryu (though it undoubtedly has spread further). From whom did Soke Murphy learn it? As I asked about Sanchin-Dai, what were some of the more important things Soke Murphy emphasized about Shihohai?

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#380820 - 03/01/08 04:33 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
sn7ns Offline
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Registered: 01/05/08
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Who is the head of the isshin shorinji ryu system now?

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#380821 - 03/02/08 01:14 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
not sure if this helps:

http://www.geocities.com/rodtsd/Okinawa1.html
http://www.geocities.com/rodtsd/Okinawa2.html

http://www.dojodynamics.com/sokemurphy/index.html

http://www.dojodynamics.com/history.html


...as far as who is the current head of Isshinshorinji Ryu?
My guess is whoever gets a grandmaster inheritor of a style certificate signed first from a worldwide sokeship council.

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#380822 - 03/02/08 10:39 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chris Wissmann Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Oh, thank god! I thought maybe I... I somehow... killed this thread!

At the risk of jumping in where angels fear to tread, my reply to sn7ns would be:

With true, due respect, I’m not sure the answer to your question is all that important.

Different people, with varying degrees of legitimacy, may make (or even receive from others) claims to be Soke Murphy’s true heir. I don’t wish to denigrate their accomplishments or offer disrespect instead of the honor due them. But I see a definitive answer to this question providing divisiveness and acrimony instead of unity or peace.

Consider Islam and Christianity after their respective founders left this life, and their followers attempted to make claims to authority. People continue to kill each other as they seek resolution to these disputes.

Though in another context or fashion Soke Murphy may have named a successor, on this message board he was extremely ambivalent: “I did not ‘pass of the REINS’ I simply opened the corral gate to let loose a few fresh horses in the hope they might partner with a few good riders. Over the years, I have been privileged to know a few of them; [Carl Wighardt] included. Of Isshin-Shorinji, some practice the forms of its infancy, others of its adolecent years, and some from the early period of its maturity. Each, depending on their time and understanding of the ‘Idea’, bring that experience to their practice. Those who practice for their own sake are less likely to be trapped in the game of numbers, standards, and styles. Remember the Form is not Thing, its about simplicity. Hordes will not flock to your banner, but neither will landlords determine your practice.”

Who is the head of Shoreiryu or Gojuryu systems? Moo Duk Kwan? Wing Chun? I wonder how many practitioners of the above arts, and innumerable others, don’t know the answers, but are still worthy, hard-working, intelligent, and innovative teachers and students? Does their inability to identify a head of their system or style devalue their efforts, experience, and skills?

I think not, though others may and I am sure will disagree. But in place of “Who is the head of the system?”— again, with no insult intended to those with legitimate claims— I would offer what I hope to be a better question: “Who has essential martial-arts knowledge and the skills to impart it to me?”

The answer, based on my admittedly extremely limited experience, has led to far richer, more varied, and important discoveries than I would expect from the mere identity of one person’s rank. Others, of course, may disagree.


Edited by Chris Wissmann (03/02/08 10:51 AM)

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#380823 - 03/02/08 04:33 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
thanks chris. well put.
i don't know the history but if you are interested in cultivating the form of shiho-hi there are a few things i can tell you. you know Soke placed an emphasis on certain things according to the students particular need. he used this form to open up my shoulders which were stuck. when doing the punches in horse stance, do them with your hips stable which really twists the torso strengthening and loosening the chest and shoulder girdle. the video that russ put up shows his hips turning a bit which russ attributes to his fall on a patch of ice. there are a couple of essentials in this form so it is of interest to note that all of the essentials were meant to be practiced in the pattern as they appear in this form but in all eight directions.
timo

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#380824 - 03/02/08 10:45 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
not sure...after 20+ pages for 3 years and 1 reborn 7 page thread, how would we know if the topic is really dead?

someone was asking who is the head of the system, and from what I can tell, the tradition of the system is to add an art name or two to it each generation. So starting with Isshinryu it goes Isshin Okinawan Te, then Isshinshorinji Okinawan Te - the next generation should uphold that tradition and make an "IsshinshorinjiAikiKempo Ryukyu Toute Jutsu".

just an outsiders view - I don't even know how to incorporate a samurai sword in with my Karate, so what would I know.

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#380825 - 03/03/08 08:20 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
good idea but are we not going one generation at a time? you forgot okinawa te.
cheers!

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#380826 - 03/03/08 11:32 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
paddles Offline
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Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Mr Morris,
Sensei Murphy encouraged the understanding of various arts to give us a better understanding of our own. The sword was not a part of our system but a knowledge of the sword was indeed helpful in understanding how to work with an opponent who had one. While I realize I am stating the obvious and that your comment is somewhat tongue in cheek, I felt maybe I should mention that for those who did not see the humor.
Russ

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#380827 - 03/03/08 11:52 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I felt maybe I should mention that for those who did not see the humor.




Mr. paddles, thank-you for pointing that out - I'm sure those who did not see the humor previously, are quite aware of it now.

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#380828 - 03/05/08 11:27 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chris Wissmann Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
I'm actually a little bummed. I've never liked or enjoyed weapons, but— and this is probably the ten-year-old Star Wars lightsaber fan in me— I've always had a fascination with the sword. I heard that Soke Murphy did use swords in demonstrations, so I hoped he had brought a boken or katana kata into the system that I could someday learn.

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#380829 - 03/05/08 01:54 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
paddles Offline
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Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Chris
Sensei did use swords in his demo. He stated that a weapon was analogous to a body part and functioned as an extension. A common theme in Okinawan weapons. Almost any form you can name has been done with sais for example.
Actually, you would be in keeping with Sensei's thoughts on the art if you went off to explore other arts or systems. He felt that you should not be limited to a single path.

In the 60's he encouraged people to go out and study. If you look at the list on the original thread you will notice that a number of his students brought a number of different disciplines back, to be folded in. Sensei traveled to New York to work with Mr Bill Chung, and an old gentleman who practiced Tai Chi back then as well.

As those who practiced the system in the 70's can attest the requirements of the system became much more streamlined by the 90's. They still provide the individual with a strong foundation to which he/she could add elements to enhance their understanding and challenge them to explore further. So learn the a bokken form from aikido or study the sword, Isshin Shorinji is a foundation for your study or a study in itself. There's plenty there to keep you busy.
Russ

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#380830 - 03/05/08 08:39 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
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Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
I can personally attest to Soke's ability to dazzle both karateka and onlookers with his sword demonstrations.Another fine practitioner with the sword was Mr. Ron Landis.I have had both gentlemen cut a potato cleanly as it rested on my bared stomach.It's relevance to modern karate is important as it takes the same devoted training to develop speed and accuracy.I never felt the blade.Soke could no doubt state a better case than I can for this art.It requires great agility and strength and is a great workout for the legs and balance.
Mr. Murphy was keen on exposing his followers to many different styles and forms, unlike many senseis who wish to teach their own curriculum exclusively.He welcomed "outsiders" to share with us.I believe this was a great benefit to us all.
We were fortunate enough to spend some time with Shotokan Grand Master Oshima thanks to another Black Belt, Ms. Carole Welch, who had trained with him.These events made us stronger and kept us humble.Humility was one of Soke's most endearing qualities.I am referring to the "old school" era in the late sixties, early seventies.Back when men were men!

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#380831 - 03/05/08 09:05 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

These events made us stronger and kept us humble.Humility was one of Soke's most endearing qualities.I am referring to the "old school" era in the late sixties, early seventies.Back when men were men!




Year.2008.

Men are still Men. Male homo-sapien as opposed to female homo-sapian. The successfull specie should adapt to its enviroment. I could find things wrong with mens behavior in all of the years if I cared to look.

Jude

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#380832 - 03/05/08 09:55 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
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Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
A better endeavor would be to examine one's own failures and faults rather than judging others.BTW, "When men were still men" is a well worn line meant to be taken as humor.It is not a derogation of youth.

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#380833 - 03/05/08 10:23 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu *DELETED* [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
jude33 Offline
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Post deleted by jude33

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#380834 - 03/05/08 10:36 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I look at my faults. I also look at peoples mistakes made in history, both ancient and recent, so I dont make them. Anyhow wont hijack your thread with all this.



Student

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/05/08 10:38 PM)

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#380835 - 03/06/08 11:01 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
paddles Offline
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Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Carol was one of the ladies that started in one of Sensei's self defense classes at The College of St Elizabeths and then joined the Fairleigh Dickinson U. karate club. When she left for the west coast she was a brown belt. If memory serves me she was Master Oshima's first female shodan. I believe she is living in Florida.

Ron studied the sword at the American Buhdist Academy in New York. We have lost track of him. Do you have a line on him?

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#380836 - 03/06/08 11:52 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
When I started training at the Parsippany dojo in 1969 I believe Ms. Welch was already a Shodan.Very classy lady.I have not seen or heard about Ron Landis since around 1981/82.Both brought good influences to our syatem.Mr. Landis had the meanest flying side thrust kicks I ever witnessed.In addition, the Cusomano brothers, Woody Jensen, Walt Fanning were great practitioners that served to inspire me and others I "grew up" with. Semper Fi!

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#380837 - 03/07/08 04:08 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Sorry for the delay in response but my work computer is down and I just got a moment to play catch up (no I don't have a home computer)

Regarding Shiohai….. In short, I don’t know for sure and don’t want to give out the wrong information. I think that a few other people who are viewing this forum but still afraid to venture into these waters might know a little more than what I can provide (hint to those peering in)….

Regarding ‘Head of Isshinshorinji’ …. Very dangerous question to ask given the history and feelings everyone has… Chris Wissman stated a very subtle and most likely the most accurate comments…. My take on this (and most likely will be debated by others) is that if Soke didn’t close the original schools, then we wouldn’t be having this debate as everyone would know that he was the ‘Grandmaster’ and a successor would have been named. However, under that same assumption, we would see an entirely different ‘system’ than we see now…. Since Soke closed the schools, Ralph Chirico took over the name of ‘Grandmaster’ in the public school arena Soke maintained his reputation as the Grandmaster and continued to teach others giving them license to teach the system. Some maintained the name IsshinShorinji (like James Chapman and Rod Lindgren) and some changed the name with his blessing (Al and Anita Santucci)… Being so far away from Soke and lack of contact made the school under James Chapmen start to do things their own way (for self preservation) and cannot be frowned upon if they did name their own ‘Grandmaster’ as they felt they were ‘left for dead’…. Back in NJ Soke named Dean Ansari to be the ‘Grandmaster’.

So in essence, we may have 4 or 5 people who claim to be the ‘Grandmaster’ because our system took a lot of turns and twists and back and forths… One might say a grandmaster to each era of the 'system'... In the end, it doesn’t matter as all that matters is the principles Soke left behind.

Jude33, I thank you for your interest in this thread… A bit confused by your original post and what it meant. But that may be because I am mentally burned out right now… But it does bring about a question I always ask people… How do we get men back to being men?... Albeit a lot of philosophy and ‘semantics’ as to what you consider a man to be…. Nevermind, I’m just being philosophic now!

I hope to contribute more in the future once my computer is fixed.
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380838 - 03/07/08 06:48 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Carl,
I was hoping when this thread was started that the discussion would center around the history, traditions, techniques, katas and the great people who were fortunate enough to partake in what Soke offered.Once again the topic has veered into the realm of who's who on the Isshin-Shorinji totem pole.While we are all free to express our opinions here, my fear is that the same rancor and petty squabbling will redevelop and subsequently sink this thread like the last one.That will benefit no one.
We all have our own recollections and appreciation for Soke and our syatem, each relevant to our own era of involvement and personal experiences.No doubt, like myself, there are many who still feel connected to our Kazoku regardless of who claims to be what.All of those mentioned as possible Grandmasters of our system are people I know and hold in high regard, even if I have not seen them for some time.I have studied under several systems, but,have consistantly considered myself to be Isshin-Shorinji karateka.Here I am some 38 years later still working out as best I can,more than a thousand miles away from New Jersey, still reminding myself of the admonitions and advice that Soke gave me and others.I often feel he is right here with me.I am probably not alone in that.His death has actually strengthened my resolve to keep training at the tender age of 65.I do it for myself and to honor him as a great mentor and friend.
It is so cool to come here and enjoy the reminiscing and thoughts of others.I don't want to see this thread devolve over titles, ranks, jealousies.As we have discussed before, Soke eschewed the great emphasis that modern karate in this country places on titles and ranks.More important is how we see ouselves and the way we live.Because I am far away I can say I don't have a "dog in this hunt".My choice is not important to anyone else so it is a private matter.
Perhaps with time those who have the desire and ability will reconcile and some leadership will emerge that will be acceptable to all.Isshin-Shorinji is one of the greatest gifts I recieved in my adult life.None of that will change regardless of who ends up "driving the bus".
Sorry if I am rambling, but, I feel this is disruptive topic that can only divide us from one another.I want to see unity among our Kazoku, as I know Mr. Murphy would demand.

JS

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#380839 - 03/08/08 12:22 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Perhaps, then, we could change the subject.

Soke Murphy was by all accounts extremely philosophical.

A question I've been asking a lot of interview subjects is:

Martial arts are often metaphorical. What martial-arts teachings of Soke Murphy have you found most useful elsewhere in life?

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#380840 - 03/09/08 12:40 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Hi guys, two posts in 48 hours…. Wow I’m on a roll here (yes, and stuck at work on a Sunday).

Jim,

I don’t see how this has veered into that realm yet but do see the potential and apologize for any part I may have in it. I was merely answering SNS’s post and trying to point out the obvious without stepping on anyone’s toes… Even though SNS could easily have asked Master Chirico the same question, I am answering his question as Soke Murphy did with ‘Ronin’ on our last thread (as if he is a non partisan practitioner looking for answers).

I don’t have a grudge towards anyone I spoke of in my last post as I have never met Master Chirico, hold Shihan Frances in very high regard along with his students, and have pleasantly had conversations with Master Ansari and others… I am merely pointing out that several people may hold the ‘title’ and in the end it really doesn’t matter because all that matters is our history and teachings of Soke Murphy.

This thread was started up in active, respectful discussion of our system, if others feel the same way on this particular topic being ‘too hot to handle’ right now then I agree to let it just drop.

In answer to Chris Wissman’s change of topic. I have to say that Soke’s phrase ‘There is not a right or wrong way, just a better way.’ , has always stuck in my mind and made me try and apply it towards life with regards to looking at almost anything (politics, religion, etc…)… Not to say that I follow it at all times, but that I try.’

Carl (no rank, no title, no looking for trouble)
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380841 - 03/09/08 01:55 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
sn7ns Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 23
In the book Asian Fighting Arts it is mentioned that the Isshin ShorinJi Ryu System was a dropped system in Okinnowa?

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#380842 - 03/09/08 03:06 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Hi Carl, so far this has been an informative thread.I just want to see it continue in that direction.There have been some really good contributions so far.
I am wondering how many times "SNS" has to ask and be responded to for the same questions, not only on this site ,but, also another site I occassionally visit.He has never acknowledged any of the responses rendered by others here.I question his sincerity and interest because he only has two questions on his mind.He has been answered ad nauseum.
I suggest we accept that there is no shortage of great masters and practitioners of Isshin-Shorinji ryu as a result of Soke's passion to share.I won't bring the subject up again.
Sorry to hear you are stuck working on sunday.Here on the Nature Coast of Florida it is presently 73 degrees.I think a bike ride is in order. Hasta luego!
JS

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#380843 - 03/11/08 08:59 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Chris,
Sensei believed that you lived the art, no matter what your endeavor you were practicing what you learned in the dojo. I know you've seen the picture of Sensei with Grandmasters Nagle and Shimabuku in front of the eight precepts of Isshin Ryu.
Both Sensei and Shimabuku felt that these were not just rules for combat but were also rules for life. I feel this is a pretty universal concept. I was in a class with Master Tohei some years ago and he said it quite simply; "As long as I am alive I extend ki." Sensei like these other masters understood that the martial arts were, like breathing, inseparable from life.

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#380844 - 03/12/08 01:40 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Sorry to interrupt, but have you guys thought about starting your own 'sensei worship' forum? you can do so here for free: http://www.forumup.com/

just trying to help since it's just a matter of time before someone of questionable character like me, trolls this thread until it's locked.

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#380845 - 03/12/08 07:24 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


… How do we get men back to being men?... Albeit a lot of philosophy and ‘semantics’ as to what you consider a man to be….




Man.

One definition is the name given to the male specie of the genus homo- ?.

Given the context of the name of the thread are you refering to how a man should behave in regards to your art?

I cant answer your question unless you put in to more detail what it is your asking. To behave like a man in the strict sense would be to exist for basic survival.

Maybe if you discuss techniques/ principles in your art it might make the conversation more inline with martial arts education?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/12/08 07:31 AM)

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#380846 - 03/12/08 07:49 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
just a polite request to all, this thread is for the discussion of Isshin Shorinji, and it has been of interest to a number of their karateka.

Anyone not involved need not read and comment, and if you chose to, keep it sensible and polite please,within reason,

This also saves me modding duties.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380847 - 03/12/08 05:47 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115
Hey Eddie, who are you and why are you here starting trouble. This thread was meant to get rid of people like you. Go away!

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#380848 - 03/12/08 08:59 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Ed Morris,
your attempt at comedy is a rude and unsolicited failure.You have stuck your empty head where it shouldn't be.Ignorance is bliss, they say, so you must be higher than a kite.Your questionable character is no longer in question.
Trolls, like yourself,typically have empty and shallow lives, so they seek to bring others down to their level.It is time for you to climb back under your rock so that adults may continue a discussion that is important to those with knowledge of the subject matter.So take a "ball four".I can be reached @ LOCKJAWUSMC@TAMPABAY.RR.COM if you wish to discuss this further.
James Stedman

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#380849 - 03/12/08 09:09 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Mr. Neeter, I very much appreciate this great site and the manner in which you moderate it.After studying your HOME page I realize that you are a very dedicated karateka.Please forgive my previous post to Mr. Ed Morris.I am aware that such responses can often make things even worse.I hope that is not the result.If there is a price to be paid for speaking my mind to this slug I am happy to pay it.I simply ask that you don't punish others by locking down this thread.
James Stedman

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#380850 - 03/12/08 10:01 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Guys,

not a problem, Ed is a friend of mine and he was simply having a bit of fun, let it go and get back to the topic please.

I would suggest to relax a bit, yes we are all karateka and great men of honour................just remember you are on a public forum with a simple set of rules which includes me doing as little modding as possible

Thankyou for the kind compliment, lets move on.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380851 - 03/12/08 10:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
you misunderstood me. what I meant to say is that Isshinshorinji ryu and all of it's teachers, masters and soke subjects are likely worthy of having a specialized forum for a concentrated and energetic exchange of gratitudes. preferably a private forum so if the sensitive issues and secrets of the art happen to come up in conversation, they will not be subject to outside critical thoughts.

see, so I was being respectful in my own way.

take care. moving on...

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#380852 - 03/12/08 10:23 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
then the pig got up and slowly walked away............

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#380853 - 03/12/08 10:28 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
by the way, I showed your patch to a native Japanese - the kanji is wrong.

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#380854 - 03/12/08 11:00 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Next time please say what you mean to say instead of being a smartass.We didn't need a special forum until you muddied up the waters.Worship is not what is going on here.Healing and reconciliation takes time.Many of us feel a profound sense of loss due to our Soke's untimely death.Because so many of us are scattered far and wide over the last 40 years this forum has become one of the best ways to share our thoughts.Secrecy is not an issue.There is nothing to hide.


As to your comment regarding Kanji, it is well known that like everything else in the universe ( see I Ching ) things change as they are passed down.Your friend may not be the sole decider of the accuracy of Kanji.There are literally gazillions of ideographs.What't the point, anyway? No one I know uses Kanji in their day to day living.
The "moving on" promise is welcome.I am happy to do the same.

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#380855 - 03/12/08 11:55 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
sorry, I didn't notice the thread was a publicaly held private memorial. Just ignore my comments as being an ass.

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#380856 - 03/13/08 07:44 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
And for my next act, I will venture my head between the lions teeth and ask a question to the forum.... What kata do you know of (either within IsshinShorinji or outside of it) that include a large portion of the essentials as seen in this video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEc8F2L550&feature=related
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380857 - 03/13/08 11:10 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

And for my next act, I will venture my head between the lions teeth and ask a question to the forum.... What kata do you know of (either within IsshinShorinji or outside of it) that include a large portion of the essentials as seen in this video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEc8F2L550&feature=related




Hi.
It might be worth while posting the question on the kata thread. It might get more attention.

Jude

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#380858 - 03/13/08 03:19 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Mr. Morris, I am not surprised that you feel the need to strike out again rather than keep your promise to "move on".



Edited by shoshinkan (03/13/08 10:03 PM)

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#380859 - 03/13/08 03:20 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Jim Neeter, feel free to remove my profile here.This is no longer a place I need to visit.
James Stedman


Edited by shoshinkan (03/13/08 09:59 PM)

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#380860 - 03/13/08 05:33 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ok. take care then. Wait, was it ever resolved who is the head of Isshinshorinji Ryu ? ...




Edited by shoshinkan (03/13/08 10:02 PM)

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#380861 - 03/13/08 06:51 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Wow, he acts like there aren't any of us who enjoy our conversations with you, Ed.

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#380862 - 03/13/08 07:11 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Jude,
I was trying to see if I could change the topic and still have something of a respectable thread going on here. However I was blindsided and saw my efforts go down faster than Ashley Dupre on Eliot Spitzer ... Anyhow, looks like I have to wait a while... I thought I would ask here before going on the larger forum with this question.
Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380863 - 03/13/08 07:13 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
ok thread is open,

troll's beware, you have been warned.

isshin shorinji guys, cool it with the angry/emotional responses.

This is the last time I clean up this thread, act like adults and remember you are on a public forum.

everyone has their right to view their opinion in a polite manner.

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380864 - 03/14/08 04:43 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115
I am glad things are back to normal.
I have seen other folks not Isshin ShorinJi people coming here. Just wondering, any of you study other "styles" within your respective systems, and what are they?

Our teacher always encouraged a diverse study of ideas. I have studied a few other chinese "styles" from my Soke Murphy and others. I beleive strongly that it enhances your study of either fighting the search for energy cultivation and distribution.

What say you?

What about our Isshin ShorinJi cousins from IL, same question or have you studies other things?


Edited by chris12 (03/14/08 04:49 PM)

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#380865 - 03/14/08 08:19 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
what does the word normal mean?
i have studied a few things. what do you want to know young fellow?

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#380866 - 03/16/08 09:56 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
CCusumano Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Campbellsville, KY
After looking at those videos of Mr. Murphy doing kata, I was taken by what I perceived as changes to the forms as I was taught them. Indeed they were subtle but changes none-the-less. Momentarily I felt sadness at not feeling a part of what was original history with Mr. Murphy (I was his first Shihan promotion from Parsippanny) however, I shortly realized I was remembering the “infant” stages of Isshin Shoriji and how after 35 years things had evolved –as they should in anything that is meant to be kept alive and flourishing. There were many things that had kept me away from teaching since 1980 and also losing contact with Mr. Murphy didn’t help at all. I have read with delight the stories from other students of how he continued to evolve as a teacher—as any good teacher must do. As I continue to scour the forum, there are pieces of history (from my era) that don’t ring true but memory fades and it invents things to plug holes. Although wishing won’t make it so, I DO wish that I had kept in touch with Mr. Murphy for personal and certainly selfish reasons. Alas, all that is gone now but his teachings live on and those he taught will no doubt continue to develope and implement changes, I trust for the better.
Shihan Menkyo Charles Cusumano 1966 to 1973
_________________________

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#380867 - 03/16/08 10:12 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Our teacher always encouraged a diverse study of ideas. I have studied a few other chinese "styles" from my Soke Murphy and others.

What say you?






You havent studied Dog boxing i.e Góuquán
have you by any chance,

Jude

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#380868 - 03/17/08 01:22 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
I've been out of town and had extremely limited internet access, so I'm sorry not to have recently weighed in.

To respond to a point above, I took and failed two semesters of Japanese in college in the late 1980s, so I’m acutely aware of how unqualified I am to address the kanji in our various patches. I will say that several people have diplomatically told me that there is a mistake in the kanji. Where and what the alleged mistake is I cannot say.

Shihan Cusumano noted the evolution of the system from when he started. There is also a divergence in how the Illinois and New Jersey branches of the system seemed to evolve. Our versions of kata— if I remember them correctly— are generally more linear, more direct, harder, and more forceful. Soke Murphy mentioned Moo Duk Kwan as influencing his adaptations of the Pinans; I have limited experience with this style of tae kwon do but would guess this inspiration is a little more prominent in the Illinois branch of the style. The kata Soke Murphy performs are more circular and have more soft and graceful movements, and in general are closer to Isshinryu and Goju than what we did.

In some places the bunkai are more obvious and in others less so.

How things may have changed in Chicago since I moved away, I can’t say.

In most places, though, the similarities are greater than the differences. I’ve seen several versions of Seiuchin, for example, and the one performed by Soke Murphy— particularly in the opening sequence— is closer to what we did than any I’ve seen.

Where there remains striking similarity is in the attention to detail and precision, in particular the pivoting of the foot, hips, and shoulders to drive techniques forward rather than relying on limb strength. This pronounced emphasis on torque was also present in a student of a student of Woodrow Jensen’s that I met by chance in Carbondale twenty years ago. The apples haven’t fallen far from the tree, though the branches have grown some distance from the trunk.

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#380869 - 03/17/08 10:16 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

I have not studied Dog Boxing unfortunately Jude. I assume you have. Can you talk a little about your practice if you are a practitioner?

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#380870 - 03/17/08 10:34 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I have not studied Dog Boxing unfortunately Jude. I assume you have. Can you talk a little about your practice if you are a practitioner?




Hi Chris.

I am not a practioner of dog boxing. I might be if there was someone to teach it. But it seems there aren’t many. I will be at some time attempting to work out what a few of the forms are. It seems the Chinese masters looked down on ground fighting. It would also seem certain C.M.A's are in a bit of a mess as regards their own history and arts.


So have to look even further as regards where their arts came from.

At some time in the future that is.

Quote:


I will say that several people have diplomatically told me that there is a mistake in the kanji. Where and what the alleged mistake is I cannot say.





I haven’t a clue about kanji. I think Ed referred to kanji.

I speak very little Japanese, it isn’t required here.

I did grasp some sentences at one time.
The difference in pronunciation can give a word a different meaning such as shoulder/ Auntie or something along those lines.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/17/08 10:44 AM)

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#380871 - 03/17/08 10:50 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Soke always stressed similarities within hard styles and soft styles. One of his conclusive ideas in Isshin ShorinJi is that there are no differences. Although some people may look harder or softer it is the same, as what is done harder can be done softer and what is done softer can be do harder. The main point to understand is how you said it Chris, attention to detail. The understanding of cultivation and distribution of energy. So I beleive the evolution between NJ and IL in the end is really the same. We may perform a bit different but our understanding through Soke Murphy's teachings is mirrored. In my opinion.

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#380872 - 03/17/08 06:30 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
For curiousity reasons, I wonder what other 'styles' you guys feel would be worth studying in order to compliment your studies... I know that some would say Tai Chi, while others would say GojuRyu. Soke Murphy might even say 'Boxing'... I personally like jujitsu (yes Chris I tend to go for the hard-line approach and need to 'soften' a little rather than just around my belly).
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380873 - 03/19/08 10:50 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
Just because I was exposed to these things doesn't mean I became good at them or even absorbed them, of course, and I'm certainly not good enough to say that my endorsement means anything, but here goes:

When I was training up north with Shihan Heriaud, the workouts mainly consisted of physical fitness, traditional punching and kicking drills, kata, and three-step and free sparring. There was a little judo and self-defense as well. It was a pretty well-rounded curriculum, and Shihan Heriaud augmented it through encouraging us to attend seminars and tournaments.

When I came to college at SIU, I think four things further helped round me out. I'm five feet, eleven inches tall and weigh about 130 pounds; I have trouble sparring against bigger opponents, and few of them are smaller than I am. I get bulldozed a lot. The things that have helped a little included:

Boxing. I never learned more valuable martial-arts information in such a short time than when working out with boxers. Bobbing and weaving and moving the head (we never did the latter in karate) was another way to get around stronger, more aggressive opponents. Learning how to throw a real jab and left hook was also a huge help (especially doubling up on these punches), as was proper body punching, which isn't anything like how we did it in karate. We cross our feet at times in karate to execute certain kicks, especially side kicks, but in boxing I learned how this can result in me getting my legs tangled and giving my opponents easy knockdowns. I also learned how to cut off the ring and, conversely, how to avoid getting cornered. Listening to boxing commentators like Emmanuel Stewart and Gil Clancy and watching top-level fighters helped me, among other things, to be more creative with hand combinations, pick up training methods, and much more.

Aikido. I was terrible at it because I had such a hard time suppressing my instinct to execute kicks under opponents' punches. I really wasn't open to all I was being taught; I was a little too young as a person and as a martial artist to accept training so contrary to what I felt good at. Someday, if my poor stomach can handle all the tumbling, I'd like to make a more serious attempt to learn aikido; I regret my earlier stubbornness because I now see the benefit of the many wonderful skills I simply refused to learn. But what I did glean at the time was how the footwork of aikido (irimi, tenkan, tenshin— moving at angles and around techniques) was a new way for me to slip away from oncoming attacks and create openings for counterattacks.

Bill Wallace. I went to a seminar in 1989, I believe, and he completely changed the way I think about kicking. Using Wallace's faster and more deceptive kicking style and unpredictable kick combinations could allow me to keep larger opponents on the outside, where I had a better chance. And I was so sore after the seminar that I couldn't compete in a tournament the next day, which also taught me how much I needed to improve my conditioning.

Thai kickboxing. I got to work out with a few Thais, and learning how they kicked was a massive help. Other than VERY light sparring, I never did any actual Muai Thai, and that style of kicking is sort of the antithesis of Wallace's method. I don't use it much even when I work the heavy bag. But knowing how to attack the legs, I think, is increasingly an essential and effective skill, and I'm glad I learned what I did of it.

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#380874 - 03/19/08 04:16 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Good atuff Chris. It sounds like you are a Boxing fan, I am a huge boxing fan. Seems like more and more people are going towards MMA and getting away from Boxing (in my opinion MMA is more like WWF).
Soke Murphy always said that the hardest person to fight would be a boxer because they do very few movements over and over and are very balanced.
I would say that studying Akido would be a good idea. It is a great way to understand how to be more fluid. Traditional Jujitsu is almost the same just a bit more linear, I prefer it to Akido a bit more specially if you are starting out.
Not Brazilian Jujitsu Carl!!
Soke Murphy was not a big fan of kicking above the waist which is what Bill Wallace is largely known for. Soke's idea of how to keep larger people at bay is to study and understand timing and distance. His philosophy was that everyone regardless of size still need to travel from point A to point B, your responsibility would be to control your space and react accordingly.
Thai boxing, I would love to practice that. Bad arss mo fo's.

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#380875 - 03/19/08 06:57 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
Bob would say high kicks are great for conditioning but for a real fight keeping both feet on the ground was a good idea. perhaps some one knows this story better than i. if so correct me.
Bob was at a tournament standing around with a number of legends when the topic of high kicks came up. one fellow started talking about how high kicks were slow and ineffective etc. when suddenly jhoon rhee jumped higher than the mans shoulder and kicked the smoke out of his mouth!! when he landed he said " you think high kick slow?' hah. jhoon told bob that jumping skills like this could be developed with just jumping on the balls of your feet a few times a day. bob was skeptical of about that.
sensei worshiper
timo

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#380876 - 03/19/08 07:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Chris, regarding your statement about moving from points A to B, I can still hear the words that Soke believed were key to any battle.." I RUN TO ATTACK, I RUN TO DEFEND".Very important advice for samurai and Okinawan peasants alike whose confrontations were up close with hand held weapons.

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#380877 - 03/19/08 08:38 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: LEATHERNECK1]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
yes . look at the second part of the essentials. all about running to fight. moving forward. either that for the Okinawans or being used for sword testing!

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#380878 - 03/21/08 08:39 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
i boxed when i was about 15. i had a chinese friend named kang mihn cutes. he was a bruce lee fanatic and could spin these double chain linked nunchaku so fast that you could not see them. we found a p.a.l gym run by some flat nose old italian masters about 25 miles away. i rode my b.m.x and kang rode his beat up 10 speed(dover to pinebrook every couple nights leatherneck). well those was the hardest workouts ever. they beat the crap out of us. heavy bag, bell, jump rope, bell, speed bag, bell, medicine ball, 3 minute rounds and after that the put you in the ring with a semi-pro who was supposed to have what they called hand cuffs on which meant they were not supposed to hit you. they did hit you and you rode home many miles with a mild headache. longest three minutes ever in the ring. heavy gloves just get heavier. wow it looks so easy when you not inside the ropes.

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#380879 - 03/23/08 04:24 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
WOW what a thread! I haven't read it since the old thread but for the most part I am impressed.

I have a question for whomever would like to answer.

At our school Dragon Fire Academy of Martial Arts, Greater Aurora Karate Club we are very into sparring. We also compete in kata weapons and sparring on a fairly regular basis at tournaments.

In the context of Isshin Shorinji Ryu how much emphasis / value was traditionally placed on sparring? How much do your schools or clubs place on it today? Do your schools emphasize competition in kata, weapons and sparring?

Here is my take for what it is worth.

Originally Posted On 01/18/2008 at kickgen.com
I believe Sparring is essential for further understanding and development of your skills as a martial artist. While pads and rule s may not be 'street' scenarios they are the closest we can come without going old school in the dojo and risking lawsuits and injury. I personally believe you can learn from light, and medium contact points fighting and full contact sparring. Both are needed but not everyone want to go full contact on a regular basis because of age, physical limitations etc. Does that mean we spar all the time every class every time we go to the DOJO? No not at all. kata, weapons, conditioning, stretching, self defense et al are all part of what we do as martial artist no matter the reason we train self discipline, competition, fun, battle, physical fitness you name it. You have to have some exposure to sparring in addition to the other aspects of our arts. I personally know of 2 school that do not spar at all for various reason. I think that is more dangerous. You are creating a scenario where someone will think they are capable of more than they are and when they have to 'use it' it won't be there for them or at the very least 'it' won't be there at the level it could be which means they are more likely to get injured or injure their assailant in manner greater than a given situation calls for. Just a couple thoughts from someone who thinks sparring is essential.

All the Best,

Dennis J. Burgin - President
Dragon Fire AMA Greater Aurora Karate Club
DragonFireAurora.com
dragonfireguy@mac.com
630.292.3232

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#380880 - 03/23/08 04:27 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
Slightly of topic but I am very interested in Society of Black Belts of America.

I am looking for folks who might have info about Society of Black Belts of America it was an organizations started in the US in 1964 by Soke Robert Murphy the Grand Master and founder of Isshin-Shorinji Ryu. He along with Sensei James Chapman helped form this organization. I believe it's goal was to try and legitimize traditional Okinawan Karate with some basic standards etc. Since both Murphy and Chapman were Isshin Ryu guys originally I believe it grew out of that style as well. Please make sure you are commenting about the "Society of Black Belts of America" There are similar organizations in name that have or do exist I am specifically looking for data with regards to the 'Society of Black Belts of America" started by Murphy & Chapman in and around 1964. Thanks Feel Free to email me at DragonFireGuy@mac.com if you have any info.

Dennis J. Burgin - President
Dragon Fire AMA Greater Aurora Karate Club
DragonFireAurora.com
dragonfireguy@mac.com
630.292.3232

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#380881 - 03/24/08 01:50 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
welcome aboard Mr. Bergin . the black belt society was a little before my time but i will see what info we can rustle up for you. all i can remember was soke saying was that there were a lot of folks starting to make preposterous claims to titles they did not deserve for various reasons and there was a need for an organization to maintain some sanity in the american martial arts world. i have one of the old patches from my fathers gi in the attic! anyway, we'll see what we can find for you and i will respond to your first post when i have gathered my thoughts.
tim

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#380882 - 03/24/08 07:20 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Dennis,
Welcome back to the forum!
Just to wet your appetite, you can look here. http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...rt=all&vc=1
Either you can continue to respond on that thread or bring it here. Your choice.
Regarding sparring, I’ll leave the answer to Tim because the last time I answered this question, I got slapped… … Still hurts.
Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380883 - 03/24/08 07:56 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Could you describe the type of sparring you are referring to?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380884 - 03/24/08 08:12 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
Well, we do 2 main types what we call continuous sparring, non stop medium contact sparring

and tournament style points fighting light to medium contact sparring.

Some of the black belts and upper belts do more full contact sparring but not all the time.

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#380885 - 03/25/08 12:24 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
What are the rules? Protection? Ranges?

I'm just curious how youdefine sparring.

Thanks!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380886 - 03/25/08 02:01 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
Rules vary, AKA as we compete in several of their tourney's
but some of our tourneys are not AKA so as far as the point system goes 1 point punch 1 kick, AKA is 1 punch 2 kick.

Normally groin shots are allowed for adults (AKA does not allow groin shots)
No striking to kidneys or spine, no leg sweeps to front of leg only to rear of knee. no kicks below the belt no elbow strikes. 3 or 5 second ground rule.

That is pretty good summation.



Protection, minimum of mouth piece groin cup, gloves, and feet.
recommended head gear, shins,

I define sparring as fighting with a minimal mount of rules and protective equipment so as to avoid if at all possible anything more than minor injuries.

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#380887 - 03/25/08 05:11 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
sn7ns Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 23
Do you guys have seisan?

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#380888 - 03/28/08 05:38 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
sn7ns Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 23
y no one writing back
i guess i shut u guys up

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#380889 - 03/28/08 05:46 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
They probably just have you on ignore, seems like a good policy

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#380890 - 03/28/08 06:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

y no one writing back
i guess i shut u guys up




Don't you have a myspace to check or something?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380891 - 03/28/08 06:58 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

y no one writing back
i guess i shut u guys up




Sorry, I was too busy trying to recruit the Shinobi Sono Yoru because I was so afraid.
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380892 - 03/28/08 07:40 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
sn7ns Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 23
u guys dont know anything about the isshin shorinji ryu system

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#380893 - 03/29/08 12:25 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
LEATHERNECK1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Florida, USA
Well, then sn7ns, why don't you get some geek to repair your spellcheck feature.Once you are up and running with some semi-intelligable language skills maybe you would grace us all with your vast knowledge on the subject.BTW, do you have Seisan?

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#380894 - 03/29/08 12:50 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

y no one writing back
i guess i shut u guys up




Sorry, I was too busy trying to recruit the Shinobi Sono Yoru because I was so afraid.




_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380895 - 03/29/08 08:17 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: sn7ns]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

u guys dont know anything about the isshin shorinji ryu system
y no one writing back
i guess i shut u guys up







Correct.
I know nothing of this system.
Yes you shut me up.
Well done!!!

So by now your ego should be on overdrive!!



So is that it?

Regards the ignore option in case you dont know what it is for.

Using the ignore option might lead to someone missing valid points,

and the none practice of self defence, against attempted typed persuasion,

in to a state of mind comparable with primeval submission,

Not using it might mean a person is convinced in to a state of mind,

that might be deemed comparable with primeval submission,

So I have observed,

So , sir, by the time you have worked out what the above means,

(I seperated the paragraph(s) to make it easier for you)

these guys should have got back the their discussions?.





Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/29/08 08:52 AM)

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#380896 - 03/30/08 01:25 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Everyone, this snot7 is 12 or 13 years old who is innocent through ignorance and like most children has a big mouth. I suggest no one pay any attention to him. He doesn't realize that all he is doing is making his teacher look bad.

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#380897 - 03/31/08 08:02 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115
Jude,

It obviously sounds like you study something, what exactly do you study?


Edited by chris12 (03/31/08 08:02 PM)

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#380898 - 03/31/08 08:40 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
jude studies parroting and non-proveable "research" that leads to what medulant said.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380899 - 04/01/08 08:03 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude,

It obviously sounds like you study something, what exactly do you study?




Part of my studies is Anthropology/ Earth Science based.
The early forms of transmission of knowledge were said to be in dance form.

Jude
Quote:




jude studies parroting and non- proveable "research" that leads to what medulant said.





Parroting? Is that in line with the study of the U.K term dogging?
Bit small aint they? I havent yet had the pleasure or none pleasure or have any knowledge of this subject unlike others who seem to have by being able to mention the study.

I would much prefer to study women, Anthropology and Earth Science.


It isn’t none provable Brian, the proof isn’t quite substantial enough (yet, at this exact moment in time, although it is increasing and more than likely will be ) to disprove any decent counter argument given by people who will choose to find one.



Brian, Hows my spelling?



so Chris back to the topic. How do you see kata as a transmission of techniques in you art?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 08:23 AM)

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#380900 - 04/01/08 08:19 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

OK, what about your study in martial arts. What are they?

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#380901 - 04/01/08 08:35 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


OK, what about your study in martial arts. What are they?




I began in
Wado, freestyle karate (didnt mention that one)trained with guys who did shotokan, did some boxing, that was in the past and at present studying the kata Sepai.

To take care of the grappling side

I train once or twice a week with guys in a form of MMA mixed with old style Judo. The guys have back grounds in thai , boxing, mma and judo.

Mixed bag.

I train (almost daily given to recovery and other committements)
On weights, heavy
Weigths for endurance circuit training
Running
bag work
makiwari.

So Chris what are yours? and how do you train?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 08:58 AM)

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#380902 - 04/01/08 02:28 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
Been on Vacation just getting caught up will post soon.

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#380903 - 04/01/08 04:42 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: jude33]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115
I started in Judo and Karate as a small kid, than moved on to Isshin Ryu. Later I found Soke Murphy and Isshin ShorinJi which obvioulsy this thread is mostly about.
Since I have been studying a lot of Chen Tai Chi with some Xing Yi and Pagua.

I train mostly with form and practice my basics but not much more than that. Unfortunately most of my teacher's students are far apart and can not get together to train in "Isshin ShorinJi" so my time is mostly spent with my Chen group. Lots of push hands lots of form work.


What about the rest of you non Isshin ShorinJi people on this thread maybe you guys can talk about what you study and start a FRIENDLY conversation. It would be interesting to know how many of you study different things.


Edited by chris12 (04/01/08 04:46 PM)

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#380904 - 04/01/08 04:54 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I started in Judo and Karate as a small kid, than moved on to Isshin Ryu. Later I found Soke Murphy and Isshin ShorinJi which obvioulsy this thread is mostly about.
Since I have been studying a lot of Chen Tai Chi with some Xing Yi and Pagua.

I train mostly with form and practice my basics but not much more than that. Unfortunately most of my teacher's students are far apart and can not get together to train in "Isshin ShorinJi" so my time is mostly spent with my Chen group. Lots of push hands lots of form work.




I think Bossman is very much a karate/ tai chi practioner. He is on another thread at the moment dicussing tensho and the chinese/ tai chi aspect/ connection with some other guys. I am realy reading it and trying to take it in.

I have looked at pakau, interested in it but it will be mostly observation. Tai chi I started to learn but didnt carry on. To motivated in other directions at the moment.

I dont know very much about your art.

Jude

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#380905 - 04/01/08 05:00 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
The following are the belt requirements we use here for rank to my knowledge these date back to Master Champan & Master Master in the late 60's & early 70's

Feel free to discuss no fighting save it for the dojo!



Yellow Belt
Shichi Kyu 7th Degree
14 Point Hard Block
8 Point Soft Block
6 Point Elbow Strike

Katas
Empi Kata Kiai on Each Strike
Taikyoko –Ichi Kiai on 3rd Punch, 2nd set of 3 punches
Taikyoko – Ni Kiai on 3rd Punch, 2nd set of 3 punches
Taikyoko – San Kiai on 3rd Punch, 2nd set of 3 punches


Yellow Belt Green Stripe/Tab
Roku Kyu 6th Degree

Katas
Taikyoko – Shi Kiai Last punch in punch push punch set
Taikyoko – Go Kiai Grab & Punch after elbow strike


Green Belt
Go Kyu 5th Degree

Katas
Pinan - Ichi Kiai Last lunge punch, Last knife hand
Pinan – Ni Spear hand, last high block & punch
Pinan – San Spear Hand, Last Backfist


Purple Belt
Yan Kyu 4th Degree

Katas
Pinan – Shi Kiai Backfist, Knee Strike
Pinan – Go Kiai High’X’ Block & Punch, leap into Hook Stance


Brown Belt

San Kyu 3rd Degree

Katas
Sanchin – Dai First single punch after 2nd turn
Sanseroo Last pickup technique

Ni Kyu 2nd Degree

Seisan First backfist from catstance
Seiuchin Vertical Punch, First backfist, Second uppercut, Last backfist
Nijushiho First Elbow, Punch to prone opponent, under punch, last ‘U’ Punch


Ik Kyu 1st Degree
Naiuhanighi - Ichi Last Block & Punch
Naiuhanighi – Ni First Release or Throw
Naiuhanighi- San Last Backfist
Jute Third Palm Heel, last Cross’X’ block & side blocks, last eye & throat strike

Black Belt
Sho Dan 1st Degree

Wansu Fake punch, first punch set, elbow strike
Shiho – Hi Second Punch to prone opponent, first fake punch, second hammer block & side kick

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#380906 - 04/01/08 05:02 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
Should read master Murphy Not master master sorry:)

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#380907 - 04/02/08 10:24 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
hi dragon.
have you seen any of the video on the first post carl put up on page one?
what are your thoughts on these?
i am curious as to the thoughts in general among mid-west practitioners about the essentials and the forms that soke performs.
in regards to your question about sparring, i will just comment briefly that it was not a part of training in the latter days. sensei thought that training form and working on perfecting your power through the visceral understanding of body mechanics through kata was enough to allow one to act as needed should a confrontation arise. while sparring has many benefits as any sport will, it is too easy to lose proper form by just trying to score points. we worked on a lot of paired technique. distance and timing with grappling and throws etc.

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#380908 - 04/02/08 11:19 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
I think they are great videos! From a historical perspective I would love to see all of them as It seems there are more out there. I would love to see some of the lower belt Katas and what we call Bo Ichi or the first bo kata.

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#380909 - 04/02/08 11:52 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115
Dragon,

The videos you saw of Soke Murphy are of his later years of the system. So if we look at it from that time frame, we no longer had belts. But, he taught these forms not always in order and not the same ones to everyone:

HAND FORMS

5 Animal form (Hung Gar)
Sanchin
Seuchin
Shiohi
Shinto
Sunsu
24 Yang Tai Chi
52 Combined Yang Tai Chi
108 Yang Tai Chi
Chen Tai Chi

WEAPONS

4' Jo
Boken (Japanese Sword)
5' Jo
-5' Jo 1
-5' Jo 2
Bo
- Bo 1
- Bo 2
- Bo 3
Sai
Chinese Long Staff (which I can not remember)

This was his curriculum although he knew more as he must have collected some 100 forms in his time from various different systems. And still modified his curriculm for the individual student as to what would work for the individual.


Edited by chris12 (04/02/08 11:57 PM)

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#380910 - 04/03/08 12:42 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
DragonFire Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Il
I would be totally interested in documentation on these especially the weapons forms. Do you know if anything is in writing in some form?

Also to everyone if you are on face book I started a Facebook group for Isshin Shorinji ryu Okinawa-Te Karate the link is here so as I develop that feel free to visit and become a part it http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8961344370

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#380911 - 04/03/08 08:09 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: DragonFire]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Not sure how you would be able to document it. I have some things in writting but nothing that would detail each form movement by movement if that is what you mean. I was one of his personal apprentices so we had no "Dojo" to work in, no set curriculum, so we had very little in writting. Some people put together their own things in writting but nothing much that Soke did for my class. I would think that he did have some stuff from the early years that other students may have.

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#380912 - 04/03/08 09:09 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
i think i may have at least a partial list somewhere but new jersey is a long way from hawaii. you will never document all the forms he knew as far as individual movements. he loved forms and thought of them as books or stories. he had an incredible archive of video. at a certain point it becomes very easy to pick up forms. one of his favorites in the 90's was a form called liu he ba fa which is also called six harmonies eight methods or water boxing. it is a very long chinese internal form and there is a nice version done by terry dunn. he had strange forms that might be hard to find i.e. 6 chinese staff with a wooden flail at the end forms. in the end he refined the 'system' down to the forms that you see at the beginning of this thread and along with the essentials that would be all that was needed.
there is no other known video.

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#380913 - 04/03/08 10:45 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
just checking in, you guys ahright? need some refreshments ? some custom punch perhaps? alrighty-then.

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#380914 - 04/03/08 11:01 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Hi guys!! Um yeah,anyway...Goju is SO much better than isshijinshishijoryuushiryu in SO many ways!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380915 - 04/03/08 11:02 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Having a great old time good to see you.
Cheers
Russ

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#380916 - 04/03/08 11:17 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:24 AM)

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#380917 - 04/03/08 11:25 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:23 AM)

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#380918 - 04/03/08 11:25 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:23 AM)

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#380919 - 04/03/08 11:29 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
i you for this and grammer but to not and anyway, yes.

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#380920 - 04/03/08 11:31 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
OK?

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#380921 - 04/03/08 11:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
i you, mmmk yada?

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#380922 - 04/03/08 11:32 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:22 AM)

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#380923 - 04/03/08 11:36 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:22 AM)

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#380924 - 04/03/08 11:38 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:22 AM)

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#380925 - 04/04/08 12:15 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:22 AM)

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#380926 - 04/04/08 12:32 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380927 - 04/04/08 01:15 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
Chris Wissmann Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 60
I believe in the sanctity of freedom of expression, however infantile and offensive. Therefore, I don't write the following words lightly:

The moderator should remove the fourteen previous posts from this forum and consider banning many of the authors of those posts from ever again contributing to FightingArts. Their posts make no pretense to constructive discussion, and in fact inhibit it. If their intention is humor, they failed.

They are not funny.



Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:20 AM)

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#380928 - 04/04/08 01:24 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: Chris Wissmann]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I thought some of them were funny!

Quote:

Worst of all, many of these authors are unable to see that their presence here, in what amounts to an online dojo, makes them representatives of the martial arts, and that their online behavior taints the martial arts and all who practice them— including the owners and moderators of the FightingArts forum— as smug, childish, and asinine. Or, just as bad, willing to countenance those traits in their dojo.







Oh brother,get a grip on reality. This whole dedicated thread should be banned,lol. This is an internet forum,not some sort of sanctuary from any non pure martial artists,sheesh.
I'm not representing anyone or anything else here other than myself and neither is anyone else.

Your holier than thou attitude comes across clearly.


Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:19 AM)

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#380929 - 04/04/08 02:01 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115

Brian, I still haven't been able to pin point what "style" you study.

In all seriousness though, it doesn't seem like you like our thread.

Dude, just don't look in here and you'll be OK.



Edited by shoshinkan (04/04/08 11:18 AM)

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#380930 - 04/04/08 03:11 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
i do hate to agree with you brian but i too thought some of the exchange was humorous. despite my love of the first amendment ( whatever that is) i take exception to the last post by chris 12. it is juvenile and gives me a creepy feeling. i hope someone will ask him to leave.

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#380931 - 04/04/08 03:46 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
ok,

I have just cleaned the thread up and am hoping you all will sort yourselves out, so it stays open.

Read ZZ's post below before you post, you have all been warned for the final time.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#380932 - 04/04/08 09:45 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: shoshinkan]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lorton, VA
I've taken a look over this thread, and its progression into a middle-school verbal slap-fight depresses me.

I'm not taking an Administrative action at this time, other than to issue this warning:

I'm getting pretty tired of the insults and veiled threats that have been sprinkled around threads like this one of late. If you want to hurl brickbats, do it in PM.

From this point on, anyone who acts childishly will be sent to their room without supper.

Z

_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#380933 - 04/04/08 04:58 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:


Brian, I still haven't been able to pin point what "style" you study.

In all seriousness though, it doesn't seem like you like our thread.

Dude, just don't look in here and you'll be OK.






It's simple really. Clcik on my name,my bio is filled out for all to read.

You guys should really contribute to other threads besides this one. Ya'll are holding the "good table" in the restaurant too long and the other patrons are getting restless.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380934 - 04/04/08 05:58 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Isshinshorinji guys,
This is at least the second time we have been asked to contribute more to other threads.
This is at least the third thread of ours which is coming close to lock down.
I would recommend that we continue to discuss Isshinshorinji here but also add to and take away from other threads so as to broaden our scope on this forum... If we do, then you would realize that Ed peeks his head in on everyone and uses comedy . You would also see that Brian has a wealth of knowledge and contributes often ...
In other words, don't [censored] off the people who really add to the entire forum or we will be shut down for good. Rather, be one of the people who contribute to the forum and essentially are the forum.
Thank you.
Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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#380935 - 04/04/08 10:09 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: wiggy]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
dear brian
what does holding the good table mean?
mom sends her best

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#380936 - 04/04/08 11:10 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
It was an analogy and I believe wiggy explained it already.

drop the mom bs please per ZZ.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380937 - 04/04/08 11:12 PM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
p.s. Any of you guys have video's of your training in action or any other informative/entertaining shorinji videos?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#380938 - 04/05/08 12:12 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: BrianS]
chris12 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 115
We have videos of our teacher doing form all the way at the top of this thread but its probably just entertaining to us.

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#380939 - 04/05/08 03:18 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: chris12]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
yes, yes. another feeble attempt at levity. we should try to be absolutely serious at all times or we will be given no dinner.

i pity the fool who uses the 'g' word.



Edited by retsamdloneknurd (04/05/08 03:22 AM)

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#380940 - 04/05/08 04:49 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
retsamdloneknurd Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 33
lets pick up where we left off dragon fire. this is also for paddles to whom i promised it weeks ago
it was an integral part of bob's teaching that all martial arts were more alike than they were different and that the differences lay mostly on the surface. the underlying principles and body mechanics etc. are all the same in their ideal state. he often showed the minor variations in a forms portrayal with different 'styles' to emphasize how much they were the same. he would show the tai chi, aiki-jutsu, isshin ryu, chi-na etc etc.
his feeling was that once you had the basics down; you could go off and learn whatever manifestation of those basics that sparked you. i myself loved the chinese stuff so that is what he helped me with. he would always say there are nothing but basics. i remember having an argument with him in which he stated that practitioners should not be babied for years and years dependent on their teachers. he said a student should have all the tools he needs to pursue mastery within six months. i was incredulous. he said that most of us have all that we need and we just need to work with it. instead of looking for more styles to round out your training or whatever, just look deep and deeper inside and figure yourself out. that is what this is about.
looking back i know he was right.
take the guitar as an analogy. i could teach you three chords and a scale in about ten minutes that might take you ten years to master and that means practicing every day. that is what he meant . it will only take you as far as your dedication.
bob had a dream of having a school where the first floor was a dojo and the up or downstairs would be a huge library. not only books but lots of video.
a student would go through his' basic training' for six months to a year and then be assigned to a mentor. the older 'sibling' would then monitor the aspirants progress giving help where it was needed but most of the research and work would be done trough self study with the help of books and video and fellow practitioners. he felt that we lived in a unique and bountiful time where you could have a master do a form over and over at the touch of a button. pretty incredible.
i wonder if anyone who is teaching this style now knows of this 'dream'?
what does everyone think of it.
there are an awful lot of issin shorinji people who view this post and very few who contribute. it would be great if a few folks jumped off the bench and hollered.
its nice to have you here dragon fire. thanks for the interest.

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#380941 - 04/21/08 10:13 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: retsamdloneknurd]
paddles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 45
Thanks. Sensei definitely amassed a tremendous collection of martial arts books and tapes and knew the contents of his library well. He had moved toward a much more self directed approach to learning, an approach that very much required the support of family to keep the novice on track. While the concept of the import of the family in the development of the martial artist in the dojo is a common one and was definitely something those of us who 'grew up' in Sensei's schools experienced, it is much more difficult to implement when your students are spread to the winds. The mentoring concept definitely provides an answer. It provides a more personal contact between the student and a much more knowledgeable member of the school.
While technology has diminished the need for a library in the school there is no substitute for the support of the dojo or a mentor to foster continued development.

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#380942 - 05/20/08 07:37 AM Re: Discussion of Isshinshorinji Ryu [Re: paddles]
wiggy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Hello everyone,

I just wanted to post some information that came my way.

Rod Lindgren (see the original thread for his comments on our ‘system’ and he is one of our Wyoming cousins) has recently started a new website: www.okinawa-te.info. This website has history of the Wyoming branch and video of a training documentary from 1977 from the University of Wyoming.

Sensei Lindgren would like anyone who wants to contribute materials and input to contact him.

I hope everyone is having a good year!

Carl
_________________________
"There is no right or wrong way, just a better way"... Soke Robert Murphy

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