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#380593 - 02/19/08 11:54 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I notice there are not many who are admitting that this thread's study is flawed.

ok, I'll play the magical thinkers game. could be fun. I'll stop making on-topic comments about the study and just resort to insults.


remember folks, look for the following pattern of magical thinkers: instead of addressing the points made, insult the person making them.

another trait of the magical thinker is the loss of control over emotions and seemingly off the charts estrogen levels.

are any of you guys growing man cans or feeling particularly fickle?

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#380594 - 02/19/08 12:32 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

so if Western Medicine was that great, my wife should have lived well beyond what she did.





Grady, I do again offer my deepest sympathies about your wife. But you cannot blame "western medicine" for being infallible. There has never been a claim that it was. Religious processes do not apply to science. It is very easy to think that if God has all the answers, then science must as well, if science is comparably "legit" (or whatever you want to call it). But science doesn't make claims of infallibility or perfection. Science is a method, meaning that some questions go unanswered, some questions get answered with more questions, and some questions DO finally get a reasonably certain answer.

It is a process, not a solution, even though it works out that way sometimes. Remember that modern, computer-assisted scientific research is still relatively new, and to imply that because all the answers are not known at this time is no reflection on the scientific process.

Insurance companies are a whole other subject.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#380595 - 02/19/08 05:04 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
Quote:

Quote:

It would be rather grim if Ed was chosen herald of the apocalypse, and we all had him on ignore.




If the world was really going to come to an end would you really want to know? I try to live my life on a day to day basis anyhow and try to do everything I need to do and tell the people in my life the things I need to tell them. I'd probably not do that much differently come the apocalypse..besides holding up a big sign saying, "Please take me to your Mother-ship!" and probably cancel the Papers!




I'd stock up on cheetos and buy a lawn chair
sit back and watch the fireworks,
give people water and shelter if they want it, just so long as they don't touch my "going out of business" stock
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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#380596 - 02/19/08 05:30 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
"ok, I'll play the magical thinkers game. could be fun. I'll stop making on-topic comments about the study and just resort to insults."


Ed I would rather be insulted than be lied to by someone saying they are just "debating" the topic. Ed you insult people all the time on here. When it happens to you boo who who poor Ed. Maybe Ed, rather than giving any scientific reasons for the flawed study you could give your opinion. Oh wait that's all you have done this whole thread is give opinion rather then producing one piece of evidence that the researchers are frauds. You like to argue like someone who is you full of estrogen.

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#380597 - 02/19/08 05:40 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: pathfinder7195]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You know...I really don't appreciate the original estrogen comment, or the follow-up. Someone please point to a study that verifies that people with high estrogen levels (and I'm going to assume that probably encompasses all females), are subject to 'magical' thinking. Implying, of course, that females are irrational.

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#380598 - 02/19/08 06:02 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: harlan]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
He is trying to point out that they didn't do the study properly, alright, good times, let's get on with our lives.

He is asking us to not take this at face value. When we counter-attack, he is defending himself. Is that so wrong?
Who here honestly will step up and say that they are wrong? Who here will, given an argument that turns their entire logical process to wasted time, admit they are inferior?

(personnally, I will. "try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo")

So yeah new point of discussion seeing as we've covered who's doing it, who published it, and a few points of how they were doing it. We've touched on religion, but not many people seemed to like to talk about moral problems or controversy when I brought it up earlier...Most of us have stated what side of the line we are on, and we've had a few history lessons.

If, that if internal force was harvestable, would we be able to use it on other problems? Or can we use it on bacterial diseases? Viral ones? What about other problems like osteoperosis?
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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#380599 - 02/19/08 06:33 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Yeah, sometimes Ed can be an ass, but so can everyone, including myself. And I like him anyway. But regardless, he has valid points about the study. This type of experiment would never work in a rigorous clinical study presented in a premier medical journal for all the reasons mentioned, let alone not having a definition of KI and first even verifying its existence, let alone having a device to measure its strength.

Below is an article, that while not directed at the study in question and decrying homeopathy in particular, does focus on the weakness of much Evidence Based/CAM studies.

Not saying this research isn't valuable, but a bit of disinterest may be valuable to us all.
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:ZVc...cd=13&gl=us

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#380600 - 02/19/08 07:05 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

you cannot blame "western medicine" for being infallible. There has never been a claim that it was.




Matt, I haven't attempted to say anyone said it was... but by implication, Western Medicine is the only way that works, because it somehow has a magical "scientific" basis... that's a bit suspect too. I spent three years up to my elbows in lab tests, radiation treatments, surgeries... and can probably do more than most nurses in treating open wounds or reading x-rays. I didn't start from zero when my wife was sick, and with limitless insurance, I got the crash course on what's "available" for treatment. My considered opinion is that Western Medicine has no more of a handle on curing cancer than it does on curing anything else... it simply isn't in their interest to do so. My wife's oncologist took pride in telling us that he would "burn up our insurance", but that "he was willing to work with us to make sure she got what she needed". He had no idea how good our insurance was, and "stumbled" a bit when I told him it covered 100 percent of everything... so cost was not a leverage on me.

Quote:

But science doesn't make claims of infallibility or perfection.




Read the statistics... science claims all the time to have "wiped out" particular diseases, etc. only to find out that they didn't "quite" get it done... like tuberculosis, which is making a major comeback. Measles... lots of other vaccines are becoming "less effective", and the diseases are resurging with antibiotic resistances unseen before... to the point of creating new strains of bacteria, like MRSA staph (hope that's the right acronym).

I've worked as an engineer most of my life in chemical plants, medical facilities, and engineering companies... so I'm quite familiar with the "scientific process" of medicine... hell, I built batch plants to manufacture antibiotics.

Quote:

to imply that because all the answers are not known at this time is no reflection on the scientific process.




Good scientists don't discount anything... they simply take notes and watch trends. If a pattern develops, they track it to see where it goes and keep researching with a goal in mind. "Curing cancer" is a relative term... for there are many kinds of cancer, different protocols for treating them, and different medicines which are the current "miracle drugs". Our local hospital system can even brag about developing a vaccine against uterine cancer which is proving very effective in curing uterine cancer. I have no problem with that... but there are other methods for the patients who might not have such a 100 percent cure rate that gives them a better quality of what life they have left... and I have my own ideas about some of those.

I appreciate everyone's sympathy for the loss of my wife, but nothing will ever replace her, or make me think that the medical community didn't just view her as another statistic to be plugged into their "numbers". The attitudes, processes, protocols, etc. were all geared to "delaying death", not curing her... and no one can ever know the heartbreak of sitting there while a doctor tells your "better half" that she has 18 months to live... his words were "that's the book on your particular type of cancer"...

All that sympathy was so deep that no one concerned with her treatment either attended her memorial service or has had any contact with us since she died. They had her hoodwinked into really believing how "commited" they were to her cure, but some people have the sense to scrape that off when they step in it. They were running a game, and it's all about the money. Patients are merely "fresh meat" for the insurance.

As far as "cancer research" is concerned, I think rubbing shoe polish on your boo-boo is about as effective as most of today's "herculean efforts in cancer research"... just send money... I would have had much more respect for the medical community if I hadn't been so closely associated with her care... for being there all the time let me see everything that went on... not just the summaries.

Ed equates "alternative methods" as "magical thinking", but having been there from day one through the three years it took my wife to die, the only "magic" involved seems to be the medical community's ability to make money disappear. I'm sure if they could have kept her alive for 10 more "procedures" they would have... because they each cost thousands... so they can't even help when it's in their own best interest.

We spend endless hours railing on the "McDojo" scams, and then bow politely to the holy grail of "medicine"... so long as it's Western, and so long as it's "scientific"...
When it comes to who's the "true believers" as Ed likes to call them... who are you guys kidding?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#380601 - 02/19/08 07:22 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sorry harlan. The joke, while distasteful, was from a couple angles: it's well know that there is 'estrogen therapy' for treating cancer, which also happens to be similar/related to sex-change procedure. see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormonal_therapy_%28oncology%29
chi-based theology and disciplines have been accused of being male-centric and outright sexist. see the first article in the latest issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts which was referenced earlier. now add to that the stereotype of estrogen levels and mood swings - and you get the tasteless comical image I was trying to communicate with - thinking if they can't understand reason, maybe schoolyard humor might find a voice. by the way, where was the outrage when I was staying on topic while others were flinging poo?

Brad, yep I'm an ass...that doesn't change the fact that the study is flawed. I liked the reference you gave - I learned new terminology: "woo-based therapies" funny.

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#380602 - 02/19/08 07:43 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
No problems, Ed. (guess nobody saw the *wink*??)

Part of my estrogen related irrational thinking is that I can't follow long threads. I'll let you guys play chi-ball...I've got to look into renting space for an upcoming seminar for Sifu Liu Chang. That whole 'one-inch' punch thing.

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