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#380553 - 02/18/08 09:24 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Vennificus]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
just to be clear - is it your belief that people harnessing/training in a chi-based discipline, live longer lives?

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#380554 - 02/18/08 09:43 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Am I correct in thinking that you're materialistic enough to believe quantity equals quality????
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#380555 - 02/18/08 09:50 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
addressing either is ok. does a chi-based discipline improve the quality of life over and above other diciplines? my only point for asking is, there is no indication whatsoever that studying/mastering chi-based diciplines provide any type of advantage which other discipline 'frameworks' do not - therefore it simply boils down to preference. Similar to religeous preference. since you can't say one faith provides a better quality/quantity of life than another.

would you agree?

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#380556 - 02/18/08 10:00 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Ultimately Ed, there'll all the same..just looked at from a different perspectives. Some are more precise with their results than others, some gloss over important parts of the puzzle. Hence why I study a multitude of different approaches to ensure a complete picture. As I've continued to say it's all Chi in my world, others have different names, but some find ways to interact with it better than others. Some spend so much time arguing about it that they hardly interact with it at all. It's all in the mind. All reality ends up getting built there...


Edited by Gavin (02/18/08 10:01 AM)
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#380557 - 02/18/08 10:13 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree with you.

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#380558 - 02/18/08 10:27 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
bonjopi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 10
The way chi and physical movement combine in martial arts
is the same way the body and mind connect in meditation.
Everyones body has chi. When people upset you emotionally
or you feel bad about being around a particular person the chi
is what is getting affected. The reverse is also true. Being around a person who is brimming with life is usually an uplifting experience.

If you look at the techniques in a Hung Gar form - the Tiger/Crane form for example, you will wonder why these
techniques seem so nasty, so deadly, so unpleasant to do to
somebody.
With that in mind here is a quick answer to your questions.
The chi can affect every cell of your body, positively or negatively. If you get sick (and there aren't too many people
that get through life unscathed), chi will help protect you. Can chi help with cancer?. My mother died of cancer. I was sitting around the table with her at dinner one evening
and she said "I have to get my little rabbits to eat my cancer cells" something she heard in the books she read about cancer.
Chi doesn't work like that. Chi works at the level that nothing should be allowed to come into your body from the outside. The better you get the less affected you get
by the outside world. Most people if you listen to them talk
when they are sick, they will say stuff like, I have cancer, or I own this disease or that ailment. Most people flow the world into themselves. They absorb like sponges the junk
that is floating around. To harness and use chi you have to
reverse that flow. You have to flow from the inside out.
If you get sick you should tell yourself that you have
superpowers, you can win, your worth the effort. Medical science is only part of the equation.
Chi can help in every way, if you read any books about
internal arts you will usually come across the statement
that if the flow of chi is impeded the body will eventually
get sick. So simple logic; and a lot of martial arts can be
reduced to some fairly simple statements - simple logic says; if the chi flows freely the body will stay healthy.
If you stay healthy, you live longer. If your more aware
of the dangers of everyday life your less likely to get
caught unprotected.
I didn't know enough to help my mother. My father I have helped. He turns 90 next month.
The reason most people flounder with martial art is because
the version they get is so watered down you can't taste it.
I asked two Masters the same question because the situation
in my life seemed more combative that I thought it should be. I got the same answer from both of them. When someone
attacks you unprovoked, what is the right coarse of action?
The way I got the answer was to attack both of them unprovoked, (you'll only get one chance to do that)
In the process I became aware of how they protected themselves. In both cases the consequences to me were very bad. I needed the answer and the answer wasn't pretty.
Back to the first part of this equation; why do martial art
techniques seem so nasty.
Answer; because if you have the stomach to see how nasty
people can be and how upset people get when you show them
that you can beat them you'll have a better appreciation
for where martial arts is coming from.
The big problem with chi is that; what you come into this
world with, needs cleaning. To clean something you have to
get involved with the dirt. You have to stay with the dirt
until you get the mess cleaned up. When you get up there
to where that starts getting cleaned up, you see the difference between clean and dirty and you realize how to clean and how much work is involved; that is when the
notion that if you don't get dirty in the first place life
will be a lot more relaxing comes into play.
So what do the masters teach, you think they teach martial
arts and meditation and stuff like that. The real masters will only show you one thing; the consequences of what you do. Something very few people study.
Question 3; can someone use chi to fight?
Chi isn't something separate from yourself. When you listen
to these forums and people talk the conversation is usually
setup to view chi as something separate, something you have
to get, some type of magic power that cool people possess.
Chi is part of the package. When I was with my teacher he didn't talk about chi. You want to know about that stuff, they show you. The real guys can actually show you. The way chi works with people starting out in a martial art type of
environment is that someone shows you a technique by doing
the technique on you. That is how you clue into that type
of activity. If you think you can learn martial art from
somebody that doesn't know any martial art; you get what you
pay for.
You have to start out with the physical. You use your body
to teach your awareness. At the higher levels your awareness
teaches your body.
I have been with people when I was training and done internal movements somewhat inadvertently in the coarse
of everyday activities such as working. The results of that
is that the people usually get very upset with you.
Not all fun and games. They think you are really [censored] off
about something or that you are weird.
When someone asks a question and an answer comes forth, that is considered a normal situation. When someone asks a question and an internal movement happens that is a
different type of experience. Something a lot of people are
uncomfortable with. Chi can be used to fight, defend yourself, do anything more effectively, more relaxed, more
efficiently.
question 4; there are two world's that I am aware of, the world of form and the world of non form. The world of form is the everyday world everyone is somewhat familiar with.
The world of non form is exactly as stated: a world where
form is not important.
The theory of Tai Chi states that; Everything comes from something and something comes from nothing. What that is referring to is that; the world of form comes from the world of non form. Can you see this world of non form? Am I full of [censored]? Ask yourself this question.
Do some readup on the origins of martial art and meditation;
What are these people saying?
They are saying a lot of very esoteric, unimaginable stuff.
And they are also saying there is a way to figure this stuff
out. They are not saying they think they have it figured out, they are saying there is a way to figure this stuff out. They are either lying or they are telling the truth.
The spiritual world is a place you bump into, not a place you want to hang around.
The reason you can't see any physical or observable effects
from this energy (which is the wrong type of understanding) is because your awareness does not encompass that level of activity.
People are very, very arrogant.
You think you are aware of everything that is going on around you. I trained in martial arts and meditation for over tens years before I started getting scared. I didn't realize there was anything to be worried about.
If you would like some help, here is my offering to you.
Don't think or worry about chi and all the stuff that goes
with that show. Study movement. The reference point that
works in every situation is movement. All the stuff that I
have experienced that the English language cannot deal with properly can be referenced in the field of movement.
When you meditate you pay attention to movement, even though
you are not physically moving. Chi, the spirit world, magic tricks, not that important. If you want to learn, study the world of movement. The opposite of movement is death.
Good health, good movement. Martial arts techniques and forms are supposed to be very high quality movement. Why did
these guys that put this stuff together consider movement
to be so important. Movement is life.
A thought has no form until you decide to initiate a movement based on that thought. The world of form comes from
the world of non form. Have you ever done anything that did not require an initial movement. Martial arts trains you to look for and study these very small initial movements. If you can see the very beginning of a movement, when the movement is small and has no momentum, you will see that you can easily affect the direction of that movement.
A fight has to start somewhere. A sickness can't come from somewhere without leaving some kind of a trail.
Awareness is movement. Movement is awareness. The good fighters don't worry about affecting your movement, they affect your awareness. When you crash they are long gone.
Movement is the key, everything you can experience as a human being can be referenced in the field of movement.
Drop the labels, forget about the fancy explanations. If
you really want to learn, study movement. Don't ever
think about stillness and non action and such. Non action
is kind of an inside joke in martial arts. You'll get affected, you won't understand how. Movement explains
everything. People require reference points to figure stuff
out. Yin and Yang theory. The mind cannot think about anything without a reference point. Internal movements and chi and energy and all the esoteric stuff can only be referenced properly with movement.
If you ever experience something for which you do not have
a reference point, at least acknowledge that a movement occurred. Movement, awareness. Use your imagination to get started.

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#380559 - 02/18/08 10:39 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: bonjopi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I like the 'study movement' take. thanks for sharing your thoughts. can I ask how old you are and what art you study?

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#380560 - 02/18/08 11:07 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
bonjopi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 10
I studied Hung Gar Kung Fu and Tai Chi and meditation.

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#380561 - 02/18/08 11:23 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: bonjopi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks. didn't mean to seem rude, but just to get a generational context, how old are you if I may ask?

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#380562 - 02/18/08 11:34 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
bonjopi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 10
51

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