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#380453 - 02/01/08 01:33 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I gave my question:

Quote:

If this threads study was not slanted towards an outcome, then the study would include results of other belief systems side-by-side with ki. for instance does prayer affect cancer cells better or worse than ki? does Indian meditation? do people who are able to 'lay-on hands' in churches have results of affecting cancer cells? how do athletes fair? etc...




for example, take the whole study and do a search and replace on the word "Ki". replace it with the word "Prayer". will the findings be similar? would anyone be able to disprove it? does just general exercise produce similar results? I don't know. thats why I ask.


I ask those sort of questions first. I'm goofy like that.

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#380454 - 02/01/08 01:34 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768

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#380455 - 02/01/08 03:05 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I gave my question:

Quote:

If this threads study was not slanted towards an outcome, then the study would include results of other belief systems side-by-side with ki. for instance does prayer affect cancer cells better or worse than ki? does Indian meditation? do people who are able to 'lay-on hands' in churches have results of affecting cancer cells? how do athletes fair? etc...




for example, take the whole study and do a search and replace on the word "Ki". replace it with the word "Prayer". will the findings be similar? would anyone be able to disprove it? does just general exercise produce similar results? I don't know. thats why I ask.


I ask those sort of questions first. I'm goofy like that.




How comes when you post your numerous links to scientific studies you don't require the same criteria to be met? By this reasoning all scientific experiments should have control groups representing every possible affected party. At least now I have a counter argument against the scientific studies that come out on the side of "science"...well you only tested science and chi. How's about prana, wicca, Jesus, Buddha and the teapot round Mars.

Funny t'aint it. You all assume all science has an ego investment in its studies, when all good science is just about learning the outcome and answering the question as to why. Funny how it's "Groupies" soon apply their same pessimistic wrath against scientific process when it don't go their way.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#380456 - 02/01/08 05:11 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: fileboy2002]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I would like to see this study followed up on--I'll bet dollars to donuts that if it is, the "findings" here will turn out to be meaningless.




Below is some "findings" from the experiment:-

Quote:

S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi,1* Tomoko Ohnishi,2 Kozo Nishino,3 Yoshinori Tsurusaki,4 and Masayoshi Yamaguchi4

1Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute, Radnor, PA 19087, USA

2Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Phila, PA 19104, USA

3School of Nishino Breathing Method, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 150-0002

4Graduate School of Nutritional Sciences, University of Shizuoka, Yada, Shizuoka 422-8526, Japan

*For reprints and all correspondence: S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi, PhD, Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute, 502 King of Prussia Road, Radnor, PA 19087, USA. Tel: +1-610-688-6276; Fax: +1-610-254-9332; E-mail: stohnishi@aol.com

Abstract:-

‘Ki-energy’ (life-energy) is believed to increase the immune activity of its practitioners. It has also been shown to cause neuropsychological effects. We undertook this study to obtain objective and scientific evidence as to whether or not a ‘Ki-effect’ could inhibit the growth of cultured cancer cells. Cultured human liver carcinoma cells, HepG2, were used. A Japanese Ki-expert held his fingers toward the cells in culture dishes for 5 or 10 min. After culturing for 24 h, we measured cell numbers, protein concentration per cell, certain mRNA expressions and the synthesis of regucalcin. The results were compared with those for control cells (non-treated cells). We found that the number of cells in the Ki-exposed groups were less than those in the controls by 30.3 and 40.6% with 5 and 10 min Ki-exposure, respectively. The protein content per cell in the Ki-exposed groups (5 and 10 min) was higher than that in the control groups by 38.8 and 62.9%, respectively. These results were statistically significant. Using RT–PCR, we found that the mRNA expression for c-myc, a tumor stimulator gene, was decreased, while that for regucalcin, which suppresses DNA synthesis, was increased. Our molecular biological studies and mathematical model analysis demonstrated that Ki-energy inhibited cancer cell division. The data also indicate that the Ki-effects involve some form of infrared radiation from the human body. This study suggests the possibility that Ki-energy may be beneficial for cancer patients because it suppresses cancer cell growth, and at the same time, it stimulates immune functions of the patients.

Using human liver carcinoma cells, HepG2, we performed a series of simple, straightforward experiments to test whether the Ki-effect could be studied scientifically. Namely, cells in culture dishes were exposed to 5 or 10 min of Ki-emission from Nishino's fingers. They were subsequently incubated for 24 h to examine whether cell growth was reduced as compared to those in the control dishes to which no Ki was applied.

We searched to see if a specific protein was expressed in Ki-exposed cells, since that might relate to a mechanism of the Ki-effect. We also tested the possibility of whether or not Nishino's Ki-energy might penetrate skin and muscle to reach cancer-afflicted organs and attack cancer cells. From the study of the materials that pass or block the Ki-effect, we also tried to search for the nature of the Ki-energy.





Perhaps S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi, PhD, of the Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute, 502 King of Prussia Road, Radnor, PA 19087, USA. would like to hear from you how "meaningless" his experiment might turn out to be if followed up on.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#380457 - 02/01/08 07:43 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

How comes when you post your numerous links to scientific studies you don't require the same criteria to be met?



numerous links? The very few that I have pointed to in 3 years are up for equal debate, always. A study without baseline (in this case they use 1 school where they already determined 'ki' to be cultivated), is suspect.
I'm not sure where you get this 'groupie' idea, never thought of the attempt of critical thinking as just some closed seminar of people within an affiliation.

want to apply the groupie term to something, apply it to the chi-believers (the ones believing chi is a physical energy force). They stay in closed circles and never come out. Ever see a chi-based believer win any physicaly competitive event? How about a 'ki-master' that is able to do incredable things in closed seminars, but then always sems to lose their power when put to a real test?

no, the only thing we see them excel at is attracting wishers to high-priced seminars and buying DVD's.

chi/ki is just a conceptual training tool but it's been hyped and sold as something else for so long that people (perpetuated by chi groupies) buy into it's mystique and are willing to automatically attribute any unknown or little-understood phenomenon as proof of it's 'energy'. Well, funny thing because if you go to another groupie group, they attribute the same phenomenon to THEIR pet 'energy' that they worship. Go to a trekkie convention and they would attribute this study to a Vulcan 'mind melding' or something. and you know something, you or I cannot prove them wrong either.

it's a load of BS. I base that on common sense. not studies. The reason why it's so difficult to even find ki/chi studies is that, until someone can demonstrate powers which others cannot do, then there is no real mystery to be studied.

all these ki power claims, yet no one can move a pencil on a desk without resorting to tricks? is that something worthy of further study and $$$ grants? lol

last time I checked, studies can only really be based on the observable and repeatable. if they aren't observable and repeatable, then there is nothing to study.

Top
#380458 - 02/01/08 07:44 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
BP, you should know me better than that. I've already e-mailed him.

Top
#380459 - 02/01/08 09:47 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Any chance of us seeing what your E-mail says? so that we can have some co-relation to the answers.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#380460 - 02/01/08 09:51 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
It makes you question
Is that q-ray really a placebo?
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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#380461 - 02/01/08 10:03 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Vennificus]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

It makes you question
Is that q-ray really a placebo?




You mean whether a placebo effect can affect a human cancer cell in a petri dish?

We must see that experiment in the proper perspective.

It was not an experiment to:-

1. see whether chi/ki can have non-contact movements of physical objects;

2. see whether it can give superhuman strength to it's practitioners;

3. see whether it can actually cure someone of cancer;

4. see whether a death ray will issue out from a practitioner's fingers;

5. etc, etc, etc.

It was done on the narrow premise of whether, if any, a practitioner's claim of issuing chi/ki beyond his own body can have any effect on human cancer cells under laboratory conditions. To see anything more into it would be unfair to the scientists involved.


Edited by ButterflyPalm (02/01/08 10:16 AM)
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#380462 - 02/01/08 10:28 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
It does make you wonder though. If there is a noticeable effect, could there be other effects as well. The Q-ray is a bracelet which supposedly balances chi in your body. With experiments like these suggesting the existence of such a force, It is entirely likely that a person will think about other claims. The q-ray bracelet is unrelated to this study entirely, with the exception of Ki or Chi.

Most people claim Q-ray works. Others beleive it's a placebo because they don't beleive in chi. What I was saying was, With things like this popping up, It makes you wonder if other claims like the Q-ray are actually true or not.
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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