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#380503 - 02/10/08 12:53 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Vennificus]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

To say something isn't scientific is like saying synthetic diamond is not a rock (despite it being created by man, it is still a rock).



Convince a covetous fiancée of that analogy, and you may have something there.


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#380504 - 02/10/08 03:38 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Quote:

Oh, and there is no such thing as a non-Ki person.



This study seems to assume the opposite.

but I understand there are multiple factions of ki-related beliefs. some believe it's an inherent energy in all living things. some say only sentient beings have it. others believe it's a trainable-only skill. then there is the mix of the views that everyone has ki potential energy, but only thru training can they channel it. I've heard it described as a force that is transmitted only thru interaction with another person, or by not touching them at all and from a distance. while another might say it's a convienent construct to describe multiple and natural physical forces acting and reacting with another in real time. Then there is the 'new age' healing descriptions of ki-flow management from auras to meridians.

but of course the easiest out is to just believe it's all of this, making the term ki pretty maleable for the user answering questions about it.




Too assume that there are non-ki people, and non-ki anythhing for that matter, shows the complete lack of understanding that most people have of Ki. It is not an internal or external energy, it just is energy. Ki is the direct manifestation of the paradoxical forces of yin and yang. Science has already proved that Ki is effective in tackling cancer cells. Radiation is just a particular manifestation of Ki. To say the term Ki is mailable is the same as accusing the concept that everything is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons is mailable....because it is, is the very build blocks of our physical universe....

Chatting with Bossman yesterday he said this thread is like a conversation where everyone is talking to themselves!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#380505 - 02/10/08 11:22 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that wasn't my assumption. it was the assumption of the study's author. heat eminating from fingertips was not excluded as the cause. Thats a very obvious exclusion. so obvious in fact, that it almost seems deliberate to exclude it.

also, other explainations were not entertained such as testing someone claiming hands-on healing power bestowed upon them by their god(s). ie: the affect of a person's faith on cancer cells.


your quote:
Quote:

Science has already proved that Ki is effective in tackling cancer cells.



Proved? thats a strong statement. care to back that up with any kind of study?


after you point out that 'proof', you may want to update wikipedia's cancer page, where it addresses a section of complementary/alternative treatment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer#Complementary_and_alternative
Quote:


Complementary and alternative
Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) treatments are the diverse group of medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not part of conventional medicine.[8] Oncology, the study of human cancer, has a long history of incorporating unconventional or botanical treatments into mainstream cancer therapy. Some examples of this phenomenon include the chemotherapy agent paclitaxel, which is derived from the bark of the Pacific Yew tree, and ATRA, all-trans retinoic acid, a derivative of Vitamin A that induces cures in an aggressive leukemia known as acute promyelocytic leukemia. Many "complementary" and "alternative" medicines for cancer have not been studied using the scientific method, such as in well-designed clinical trials, or they have only been studied in preclinical (animal or in-vitro) laboratory studies. Many times, "complementary" and "alternative" medicines are supported by marketing materials and testimonials from users of the substances. Frequently, when these treatments are subjected to rigorous scientific testing, they are found not to work. A recent example was reported at the 2007 annual meeting of the American Society of Clinical Oncology: a Phase III clinical trial comparing shark cartilage extract to placebo in non-small cell lung cancer demonstrated no benefit of the shark cartilage extract, AE-491.[9]

"Complementary medicine" refers to methods and substances used along with conventional medicine, while "alternative medicine" refers to compounds used instead of conventional medicine[10]. A study of CAM use in patients with cancer in the July 2000 issue of the Journal of Clinical Oncology found that 69% of 453 cancer patients had used at least one CAM therapy as part of their cancer treatment.[11]

Some complementary measures include botanical medicine, such as an NIH trial currently underway testing mistletoe extract combined with chemotherapy for the treatment of solid tumors; acupuncture for managing chemotherapy-associated nausea and vomiting and in controlling pain associated with surgery; and psychological approaches such as "imaging" or meditation to aid in pain relief or improve mood.[11]

A wide range of alternative treatments have been offered for cancer over the last century. The appeal of alternative cures arises from the daunting risks, costs, or potential side effects of many conventional treatments, or in the limited prospect for cure. Some people resort to these so-called "alternative" forms of treatment in desperation or as a last resort. However, no alternative therapies have been shown in any scientific study to effectively treat cancer. Some express the view that the promotion and sale of certain alternative modalities known to be ineffective constitute quackery.[12]





That quote from above are not my words, they are the collective of literally thousands of contributers since the entry first went up in 2001.

so if you are at odds with what most believe, then it's up to you to present your case logically and not based on unrepeatable miracles, emotional inferance, or your own commercial success bias....a growing number of people can see thru that.
but if you do have evidence of proof, it would be irresponsible of you to neglect updating that wiki entry since millions of potential and current Cancer patients who are researching it for themselves or loved ones will no doubt use that as a source of consideration.

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#380506 - 02/10/08 11:48 AM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
The study is not a cure for cancer Ed. But stay on that topic because it suits your needs for your arguments. But you have no proof that the study is a fake either other than your belief/opinion. There are other studies on chi too Ed besides this one. I could show you a vast amounts of studies on chi but it would be all in vain because no matter what is given to you or said you will still not believe. Its like two people arguing over god one who believes and one who doesn't. Rather redundant.

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#380507 - 02/10/08 12:26 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Read what I said Ed. Radiation is a manifestation of Ki. Radiation is used in the treatment of cancer patients. Stop reading a mish mash of websites and actually do some concrete study on the subject you've been obsessing about for years. Either study science in a meaningful way so we can discuss it from that point of view or study oriental theory....at the moment trying to discuss this subject is like talking with a stubborn school kid with their first Science book. Not that it's not amusing, just a bit pointless.....
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#380508 - 02/10/08 01:50 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: pathfinder7195]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
never said it was. The only thing that will someday cure cancer is Science. not quacks, flakes, wannabes, and dropouts with ki-theories selling books, giving mall massages and filling newage-MA seminars with the young looking for superpowers and middle-aged looking for the fountain of youth.

I've only demonstrated that the study presented is flawed.

the flaw is in the fact the test did not include a baseline. Nor does it exclude other explainations for it's findings. it simply states that it was ki. ...when more likely, the cause of the findings is by the radiant heat we emit from our fingertips and hands.

that's what I demonstrated in this thread and I even asked the author of the study himself. his response was basically a marketing pitch for a ki breathing method.

what have we seen from the counter-argument in this thread? attempt after attempt to discredit me personally, while not addressing the study itself.


people, in order to debate, you have to show how the study is true...NOT by simply trying to make the questioners of it false.


gavin:
Quote:

Radiation is a manifestation of Ki


ok, point to the basis of that statement. and if you are asserting that ki is an fundamental force in physics, then it is ki-believers that have the burden of presenting their case to the world organizations of physicists. once ki-belief is accepted as a theory, then we can start a whole new conversation on a different level and you won't need to resort to devolving your arguments.

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#380509 - 02/10/08 03:40 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Ed there are people out there that have a lot more knowledge on this than either of us. I highly doubt that you Ed morris can prove him to be a flake, because you and I are not the only ones to see this study.

Yes there are flaws to the study. But being able to be the armchair quarterback is quite easy. I also think you are a little [censored] at the author for not answering you two silly questions on chi balls and no touch knockouts.

One study does not prove or disprove "chi" but you may think it does. There are many studies on "chi" I just don't post them all on one thread so we don't get overloaded on them. But in a week I will post another one we can talk about.


Edited by pathfinder7195 (02/10/08 03:44 PM)

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#380510 - 02/10/08 04:36 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

you won't need to resort to devolving your arguments.





I ain't arguing with anyone Ed...you don't have a perspective from either an eastern or western approach that would warrant me arguing with you....besides arguing would denote I have something that I need to convince you of. I'm comfortable with both my world view and scientific understanding to not need to argue. This is just entertainment mate!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#380511 - 02/10/08 04:48 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Gavin]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
Let it be said that madmen and scholars alike in search for truth will indefinitely rip apart every and all theory until they can argue no more,

It is possible that ki is a form of radiation, I'm not a physicist, but I have a feeling It's sub-infrared in terms of wavelength (wavelength is longer).

And Ed, It Even says that they did the same thing with someone who did not know how to control their Ki, and then tested it to see if it was heat by having the dish completely covered by a hand.

And for everyone else, We should take such arguments seriously, there's a slim chance we might actually learn something.

On another nore, Ed Is right, With the emergement of Ki there's gonna be all sorts of martial arts popping up left right and center with kids who want superpowers signing up in droves. Wether or not this is real, What are the consequences of releasing it if it is? Will Ki based diseases begin to pop up? What is The equillibrium to harnessing a potential source of energy that comes from our very hands allowing us to do feats we thought impossible?
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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#380512 - 02/10/08 07:17 PM Re: "KI" effects on cancer cells. Scientific study [Re: Vennificus]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

It Even says that they did the same thing with someone who did not know how to control their Ki, and then tested it to see if it was heat by having the dish completely covered by a hand.



That's exactly the flaw I'm talking about. This is key:

test 1: they have a ki-trained person project from fingertips to cells.

test 2: they have an untrained person cover the dish, and ki-trained person projects ki.


untested cause of test 1: heat eminating from ki-trained persons hand affected the cells.

untested cause of test 2: heat eminating from non-trained persons hand affected the cells.


in other words, the tests did not take into account even the possibility that it could have been heat transfer to the cells.

let's say they did determine it is heat that caused the cancer cells to react the way they did...that would eliminate the need to even mention ki in the study, right? exactly. thats why they didn't test with that sort of baseline. their whole reason for 'publishing' the study in the first place was to add weight to the ki-based material they are pushing: ki breathing methods with health benefit claims.

listen, I don't care who I rub the wrong way - or even if, god forbid, I lose Gavin's best friend status.
If my jotted down ramblings cause someone to think instead of blindly accept anything produced by anyone official sounding, that uses the word 'ki'...then it's worth a few ruffled feathers.

{hey, where is wristwister? about now is the time I'd expect him to pop in and give a drive-by semi-automatic insult. let's see, will he go with the 'google-fu' demeaning, the 'your just jealous of my powaz' angle, or will it be in the form of a "I know a guy..." ancedote? lol j/k WT}

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