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#380350 - 01/29/08 08:33 AM Kanku Sho
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quick question, does anyone know where Kanku Sho came from?

And Bassai sho for that matter?
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#380351 - 01/29/08 08:43 AM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I haven't confirmed entirley but a voice tells me that Itosu Sensei created the sho versions of these kata, as opposed to the older dai versions.
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#380352 - 01/29/08 08:46 AM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Kanku Sho and Bassai Sho were both created by Itosu I had read.

But far more interesting, what do they mean! Say the opening movements of Kanku Sho, 3 moroto uke positions and the high crossed fingers opening movement and turn/twisting hands behind of Bassai Sho?

Ben

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#380353 - 01/29/08 12:17 PM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Barad]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Post a link to the version you are refering to please so we can discuss. Not every knows the Sho and Dai versions of classical kata.
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#380354 - 01/29/08 12:53 PM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sho versus Dai is always an interesting discussion. There is no clear cut answers, you will find many variations.

Here are two sites that you might want to consider.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanku_dai

http://www.shoryukan.com/Topics/Extra/Articles/development.html

Kusanku (on the second site)

There is much debate on the actual creators of the shuri kata that is practiced today, although we do know that some of the forms actually existed in China and were brought to Okinawa. One of the most common kata in Shorin-Ryu is Kusanku, said to have been created by Sakugawa Satunushi based on the teachings of the Chinese military envoy who lived in Okinawa around 1715. There exists many versions of the form although they resemble the same pattern in performance. Kusanku Dai/Kushanku Dai is most associated most with the lineage of Sakugawa and Matsumura and is called Kanku Dai in Shotokan. In the Kyan-ha shorin styles, the kata Chatan Yara Kusanku is practiced which utilize the influences or techniques of that teacher. Kusanku Sho is very similar in pattern to Kusanku Dai and is believed to be created by Itosu Ankoh. A great educator, it possible that Itosu chose to modify Kusanku Dai and adding the Sho version for people with different learning styles. There exists another version, Shiho Kusanku, which Itosu is also credited in developing that is practiced by some Shito-Ryu groups.
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#380355 - 01/29/08 02:33 PM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
so, if this kata comes from china, do any chniease styles still pratice this form? or is it lost in in chinease time?
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#380356 - 01/29/08 04:48 PM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Mark,

After following discussion and writing about Kusanku for years I have never seen one piece of evidence that Kusanku remaind a form in a Chinese system.

Now it may have been a private family art that was not preserved in public study. There have been many family arts in China, for one thing.

When confronted with Classical Okinawan Oral History of Karate, all you can do is accept it or not. personal choice.

On the whole I tend to accept all oral history as correct until there is contradictory evidence otherwise. But that doens't mean my acceptance means it's true, just that there are often more important matters to consider.

The varitions on Kusanku from Itosu versus Kyan/Tomari lineages are interesting. The Sho version in Itosu lineage also presents new possibilities.
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#380357 - 01/29/08 07:36 PM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Kanku Sho - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHqjTmPGdNU

Bassai Sho - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750_5WKCMKM&feature=related

I think Barad and Victor cottoned on to where my thoughts were running.
I've never had a mind to study these forms as they feel much less well put together than their Dai versions.
They give me the impression of tacking on a single forgotten/undeveloped idea to the system of the Dai kata and I wondered where they came from, why they were created and what they were for??

Looking at the opening of Kanku sho, I see it as an effective defense to a chain punch/blitz attack. step back and kick below while performing a simultaneous trap/strike over the top, practiced in all the necessary directions.

For Bassai Sho the only thing that springs to mind is some kind of wrist hold reversal into a lock that should continue on beyond the hands high position, possibly entered after an initial shoulder barge. After that I'm really not sure.

Part of me wants to work it out, part of me thinks it can't possibly be worth the effort. Barad, what do the Kissaki Kai say about these kata and their opening movements?
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#380358 - 01/30/08 08:32 AM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

I have to say that although I practice both these kata and look for applications, I have never seen any specific Kanku Sho and Bassai Sho techniques shown by Vince Morris. That said they contain a lot of techniques common to or similar to other katas.

The three sliding/withdrawing morote uke positions at the start of Kanku Sho: I have seen two main applications for moroto uke in general. One is against a grab, locking the grabbing hand and striking to the neck with the forearm. Iain Abernethy shows something similar at Photo 6 here: http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart6.asp

The other application for moroto uke is against a same-side grab to wrist or forearm (expected to be followed by a punch). The response, that might perhaps be enhanced by sliding back although I usually slide forward, is to perform a kind of nikkyo movement as here: http://cs.stmarys.ca/~s_bramania/Nikkyo.php but using the forearm bone on the little finger side to cut into the grabbing wrist/arm.

I do not really buy the idea of blocking stomach punches using moroto uke whilst sliding backwards out of the way.

Bassai Sho: Enoeda in his kata book used to show the opening movement as sliding into cross legged stance blocking a face punch with crossed open hands that would not have hit him if he had not moved forward in the first place!

I tend to agree with you that it looks as if it is a wrist reversal against a two handed grab of the stacked hands in front in the yoi position of the kata. The hands are brought to the left side to weaken and extend the grabbing arm or make the grabber pull the other way against you. You then slide forward and reverse the grip the way he is pulling and make the crossed hands position. If they are still holding on, then this should have unbalanced them and twisted their arms. You then project them behind (the first turn in the kata) and apply the upwards arm lock shown in the kata, where you push up on their elbow joint with your left hand and secure their wrist palm up with your right hand causing enough pain to take their toes off the ground (this is the first slow bit in the kata). That's the theory anyway. Can I do it for real? I tend to think a good strike is best before trying any fancy locking!

As it happens, I saw virtually the same movement as the start of Bassai Sho in an aikido class years ago and it opened my eyes. It relies on people holding on to your hand as if to stop you drawing a bladed weapon worn on the left but nowadays people would probably let go after the unbalancing so the value of this application is moot.

Just my thoughts anyway...

Ben

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#380359 - 01/30/08 08:48 AM Re: Kanku Sho [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Joe swift wrote this:

Hello all,

Great stuff, this Passai. Here's what I have been able to dig up in the past few years.

1. Concerning the Name/Origins of Passai

First of all, it is necessary to clear some things up about the meaning of Passai. Many state that the kata name means something along the lines of ?gto penetrate a fortress?h or some other such definition. It is important to realize, however, that such definitions come from so-called ateji, which is the use of Sino-Japanese ideograms (kanji) to preserve the pronunciation of a foreign word and to give it some semblance of meaning. In 1935, Funakoshi Gichin wrote in his Karatedo Kyohan that he had changed the old Sino-Okinawan kata names to nomenclature that would be more palatable to the Japanese, and it is here that we see the first written record of Passai (Bassai in Japanese) defined as "penetrating a fortress." Three years later, Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa, in Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon, blatantly state their use of ateji for kata names. Mabuni, although using different kanji than Funakoshi, expressed basically the same meaning.

Okinawan karate researcher Kinjo Akio, feels that the Passai kata is related to Leopard and Lion boxing forms. He feels that the first step in the kata, where one steps in, twists the body sideways and performs a strong strike/block with the closed fist is representative of Leopard boxing, whereas the use of the open hand and the stomping actions are more representative of Lion boxing. The name itself, Kinjo holds, actually means ?gLeopard-Lion,?h which would be pronounced Baoshi in Mandarin, Baassai in Fuzhou dialect and Pausai in Quanzhou dialect.

Other theories as to the meaning of the name Passai include "eight fortresses." Noted Okinawan karate historian Hokama Tetsuhiro has even hypothesized that it might represent a personal name. Murakami Katsumi, a direct student of such luminaries as Chibana Choshin (Shorinryu), Inoue Motokatsu (Ryukyu Kobujutsu), Kyoda Juhatsu (To'onryu) and many others, calls upon his knowledge of Chinese martial arts when searching for the possible roots of Passai. He says that some parts remind him of the Wuxing Quan (Five Elements Fist) form of Xingyi Quan.

2. Versions/Evolution

Of the Okinawan versions of Passai, a clear evolutionary link can be seen from the Matsumura no Passai to the Oyadomari no Passai and then onto the Passai Dai of Itosu. Out of these, the Matsumura version seems to have retained an essentially Chinese flavour, whereas the Oyadomari version is a more "Okinawanized" form, which was further modified by Itosu into the uniquely Okinawan modern version seen today.

Of the two Passai in Itosu's toudi, the Passai Dai is very similar to the Ishimine no Passai, believed to be passed down by Bushi Ishimine. The Sho version of Itosu's Passai is often described as being utilized against a staff wielding opponent, but Murakami believes that the principles found in this kata were utilized quite a bit in actual (unarmed) confrontations.

3. On Passai in Chibana Lineage Shorinryu

Itosu Anko taught 2 versions of Passai in his physical education version of "toudi" and these were designated as Dai and Sho.

Chibana Choshin was a direct student of Itosu, and also taught a Passai Dai and Sho.

However, these are different. What seems to have happened, is that Chibana had learned a third version of Passai from his relative Bushi Tawada, who was a direct student of Matsumura Sokon. According to direct Chibana student Murakami Katsumi, when Chibana showed this version (sometimes called the Tawada-ha Matsumura no Passai) to Itosu. Itosu had told him that he had never seen anyone perform that particular kata as well as Chibana, and that he should preserve it.

So what had happened, is that Chibana kept this Passai and called it Passai Dai, and relagated Itosu's Passai Dai to the position of Passai Sho. This left the "other" Passai Sho in limbo...

The "other Passai Sho" is none other than the so-called "Koryu Passai" or "Passai Gwa" that is practiced in some Chibana lineage sects of Shorin. I think that Miyahira had learned this particular version from Gusukuma Shinpan (another direct Itosu student) and this is where the Gusukuma lineage came into being in that tradition.

This is probably as clear as MUD, but I hope you can wade through it! Maybe the following will help:

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