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#380206 - 02/03/08 07:48 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Such the power of the darkside:)




Siths
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380207 - 02/03/08 08:46 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
I'm glad I started this post. It has gone places I didn't expect it to go. I would have to ask too if the changes made to SW where made for changes sake or for purpose of improvement. Or was it changed at all but only explained clearer. I would have to disagree with Stuart and say that although not named as such, SW did exist in the sixties and early seventies. Now, while watching the tapes, not all the participants did the SW the same but the rising and lowering in the movements can be seen especially with Master Ra Young Chul and master Kim young Soo unlike the movements of Karate where the movement is level.
I have always said that Gen. Choi wanted to spread TKD first then come back later to refine the movements. Unfortunately, many instructors left the ITF before he could refine the movements while others didn't feel the need to refine. this is why you see so many on youtube doing patterns differently. This is unfortunate since the Patterns contain the movements that make up TKD so if you are not doing the Patterns correctly you are not doing TKD correctly.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#380208 - 02/03/08 11:02 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Sir, I was wondering when you were going to weigh back in! Yes SW or some form of it, was there from early on. What changed was the terminology, the emphasis & then the actual motion. This does cause much confusion. I can tell you that I think the final change was due to politics. I can't prove it, but I am not the only one who feels this! It was done to damper the huge effect the loss of Master Park Jung Tae was to the ITF.

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#380209 - 02/03/08 11:18 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

People conceptualize things in different manners based upon their frame of reference, how they were taught and by whom.
You of course have drawn your conclusions based upon this.

Hoever, interestingly enough, even though Master Unity and I had different instructors and spent little if any (???) time together in classes taught by General Choi, we both lived thru the evolution and both attended several courses with him, and althought our experience was seperate, and independant our observations and conclusions are virtualy identical... Such the power of the darkside:)




Yes & that is one of my BIGgest pet peeves. There is so much trashing of SW on the interent & elsehwere. Now I dont't care 1 way or another, how one maximizes power. What does upset me, is the critique of something without the required knowldge of the how & why. I have often asked non ITF students, what is the basis for their TofP & how do they look to improve their power. Many just look at me with a blank stare. Sadly, the schools I visit rarely have any students displayin any power. Rather, the floor is filled with students just moving their arms & legs. Often they don't even put their foot in the right position to make a proper tool. I hope that they don't get hurt, or hurt themselves if a real SD situation comes up. Then I would also hope that they would at least get their money back for services not rendered. GM Sereff used to say, TKD works, you don't work!

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#380210 - 02/04/08 08:22 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
FWIW as I have said before IMNSHO Sine Wave is just a term used by General Choi to describe the overall motion. One needs to get into the mechanics behind the description to fully understand what is going on.

Once that is done I find that the concept is not unique to General Choi. It can be seen in how a boxer flexes their knees, in Bruce Lee's books aboutthe 1 and 2 inch punch, and even ar ecent national Geographic Show "Fight Science" using MMA Fighters where they illustrate the concept of the Kinetic Chain or Kinetic Linking also alluded to in a previous extreme martial arts show.

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#380211 - 02/04/08 10:59 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I would have to disagree with Stuart and say that although not named as such, SW did exist in the sixties and early seventies.



I didnt say that.. I said it did and dropping into techniques can be seen in those early videos!! I even said so in the sine wave article & book!!

Quote:

I have always said that Gen. Choi wanted to spread TKD first then come back later to refine the movements.



Im not sold on that though.. how much harder would it have been to show the dropping motion or SW whilst doing all those courses!! Theres refining and missing something out completely (the dowm/up/down version of the sien wave is what I refer to).




Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380212 - 02/04/08 11:00 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

What changed was the terminology, the emphasis & then the actual motion.




So technically all of it then

Quote:

I can tell you that I think the final change was due to politics. I can't prove it, but I am not the only one who feels this! It was done to damper the huge effect the loss of Master Park Jung Tae was to the ITF.



No hes not... Im with him on that!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380213 - 02/04/08 12:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

FWIW as I have said before IMNSHO Sine Wave is just a term used by General Choi to describe the overall motion. One needs to get into the mechanics behind the description to fully understand what is going on.
Once that is done I find that the concept is not unique to General Choi. It can be seen in how a boxer flexes their knees, in Bruce Lee's books aboutthe 1 and 2 inch punch, and even ar ecent national Geographic Show "Fight Science" using MMA Fighters where they illustrate the concept of the Kinetic Chain or Kinetic Linking also alluded to in a previous extreme martial arts show.




I couldn't agree more!

This is one of the reasons I started to use the term raising the hips. Forget about terminology. It confuses the issue. It is the movement. Now, the emphasis of the movement has changed & the motion has as well, over the years.

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#380214 - 02/04/08 12:36 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

I have always said that Gen. Choi wanted to spread TKD first then come back later to refine the movements.



Im not sold on that though.. how much harder would it have been to show the dropping motion or SW whilst doing all those courses!! Theres refining and missing something out completely (the dowm/up/down version of the sien wave is what I refer to). Stuart




No I think that had more to do with the fact that there were basically Korean Karate students coming to the founder to get certified. At most, they had to learn the patterns. They for the most part were not interested in the movement & as such, either never learned it or never embraced it. Once he moved the ITF to Canada in 1972, the numbers coming to him dropped. There were others that lived outside of Korea, who backfilled the void, but the numbers were not there & those new ones, were not going back to their respective schools that they already established & now start teaching something different, as many looked at that as saying what was being taught previously was wrong. Not good for business, from these new Korean immigrants that had started schools that they & their families back home depended on for income. The movement did not take hold till the 80s, when most of the Koreans were gone & the natives of their respective Countries' NGBs ran them & all students had access to the 15 volume Encylopedia, seminars & IICs taught by the founder, eliminating the reluctant middlemen. JMHO

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#380215 - 02/04/08 12:37 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

What changed was the terminology, the emphasis & then the actual motion.



So technically all of it then Stuart




Yes of course! I never said differently.

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