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#380176 - 02/02/08 11:29 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.
------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to know where this misinformation originated?




I think this should read, how the hips are raised, depends on the stance one is in. Sorry I can't do the fancy quotes in one reply, so all my back & forth tends to confuse my little pea brain. I hope I am not losing others with that format.

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#380177 - 02/02/08 11:55 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I give up for now as we are & need to




-- LOL


Quote:

Sorry I can't do the fancy quotes in one reply, so all my back & forth tends to confuse my little pea brain. I hope I am not losing others with that format.




ITFunity simply write the word "quote" and put a bracket either side of it [ ] at the front of what you want to quote, and at the end, the same thing with a forward slash eg. [/quote*]

--delete the stars--

Example:
[quote*]we love ITFunity[/quote*]
=
Quote:

we love ITFunity




or

simply hit the quote button in the box on the right when editting and cut & past what you want quoted between the boxes.

If you understand the technical/scientific side of the sine wave.. this will be easy
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380178 - 02/02/08 11:59 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

Yes I know & that is the problem. How you were taught is not the ITF way.



How do you figure that considering my linage goes via GM Rhee!! Stuart
ps. I should point out to anyone reading this that myself and ITFunity do actually get along quite well




Yes this has always been a BIG problem in the ITF. Especially with complex issues like SW, which was not widely accepted. This was also why it, SW & the movement, along with the patterns was also emphasized & picked apart at the seminars with the founder. The truth of the matter is, that often techniques did not flow down to the students without corruption, confusion & the influence of individual instructors. This is why I find it such a remarkable accomplishment by the founder, where we can boast of a WCs, with students from all around the world, basically moving as if they all had one teacher, training in 1 school. That I think is unprecedented, AFAIK! That is why he didn't get into SD, HooSinSul & other aspects of his Art. There was not enough time & these areas had a sense of individuality that did not require, nor were they necessarily beneficial to have everyone do it one way.

Now as far as GM Rhee goes, remember, he was not the Ambassador's best student ever, because of technical awareness. he was because of one simple thing, that actually is not so simple to be: LOYALTY. He was the only Korean to remain with the founder from start to finish. Now he was one of the super human specimens that a military General had access to. But I think one would have a hard time on saying who was the best physical student. Some had better flexibilty, more power, better jumpers etc. However, there is no doubt he was very, very talented. Now post ITF split, there have been senior members that have said he is old school. Now I have trained with him on more than one occassion, in several types of settings & he seems very knowledgeable to me. I cheerish the opportunities to gain any insight he has to offer.

Now training with someone, who trained with him, or can trace their lineage to him, is great. However, in an ITF Chang Hon style, that has controversial & often poor acceptance of certain issues, that also was constantly evolving, can tend to leave someone somewhat removed.

So the use of the knee was always instrumental in raising the hip in order to increase power. As you can see, different people referred to it with various terms, as they were going from Korean to English. According to GM Kim Yong Soo (July 05 issue of the UK publication) as reported by Mr. Phillip Hawkins, SW & knee spring was there in the late 60s. He was after all the ITF Chief Instructor in Seoul. Now from my understanding, many came in for the course, as a requirement to travel abroad. There were also others who came back for refresher updates when they came home to visit family. Many of these simply learned the Chang Hon Tuls, but continued doing them with the old style motion.

So call it what you want, but the raising of the hips was there in the 60s. Now how the hips were raised & the emphasis did change. That is easy to see, but a whole other topic.

Finally, Mr. Anslow is a very talented, informed MAists. I am proud to call him my friend & I have learned so much from him, via my communications with him, his book & these forums.

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#380179 - 02/02/08 12:15 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Can you ask him if:
1. He has always called it natural motion or if he changed to (or back to) that when the new down/up/down version cmae out?
2. What his opinion on the knee spring is? (As I described above as a seperate thing or simply as part of the sine wave motion) Id be interested to see if he differed from GM Rhee in that. Thanks, Stuart




The way GM CK Choi has explained & demonstrated it, appears to be just the naturally flexing of the knee that occurs when walking. (This flexing of the knee results in the hip being raised slightly. MY words) The impression I get is that he was not with the ITF when they emphasized the UP, then down movement, so he does not agree with the 80s version, but certainly disagrees more with the exaggerated 90s movement of DOWN, then up down movement. He also does not like the use of the term SW, which I think supports my interpetation.

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#380180 - 02/02/08 12:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Finally, Mr. Anslow is a very talented, informed MAists. I am proud to call him my friend & I have learned so much from him, via my communications with him, his book & these forums.



See, now I feel bad arguing with you. The same is true in reverse btw.. i have learnt much from you too

So.. Ill just pick up on three points:

Quote:

According to GM Kim Yong Soo (July 05 issue of the UK publication) as reported by Mr. Phillip Hawkins, SW & knee spring was there in the late 60s.



That could actually go some way to verify what said about them being different entities.. unless he elaborated that knee spring was simply part of sine wave!

Quote:

Now as far as GM Rhee goes, remember, he was not the Ambassador's best student ever, because of technical awareness. he was because of one simple thing, that actually is not so simple to be: LOYALTY.



well I never mentioned about that part in this discussion.. but I know Gen Choi said it, but I have never heard him say it was because he was loyal.. perhaps you have, I dont know! So I can only take it as I hear it!


Quote:

However, in an ITF Chang Hon style, that has controversial & often poor acceptance of certain issues, that also was constantly evolving, can tend to leave someone somewhat removed.



Well as you said in your last post, Patterns were the one part of TKD Gen Choi wanted unified & samey, and thats what he achieved (by your own admission).. the sw is part of all patterns, so why would it not be transfered along the line when the patterns were done in this way so well!! It doesnt make sense!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380181 - 02/02/08 12:23 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Geez.. you guys always double team me

Thats because we both had the honor of training with the founder & other pioneers & we both share the fact that we were fortunate enough to absorb a bit of the information they passed along.



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#380182 - 02/02/08 12:34 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Geez, the evidence for this is all over the place. Interview of Kim Yong Soo, the Chief Instructor for the ITF in Korea in the late 60s.



I dont have the interview and have never read it.. though I'd be interested in reading it of course.
Quote:



It is on its way to you. I also have not forgotten about your e-mails, but I must 1st grease the wheels & am working on another project(s) with time constraints & trying to salvage my most important relationship.

Quote:

Sorry, SW is to increase mass & speed up the technique. Reference the TofP. (Ref pgs 29-37 of the 15 vols)



Again, mass is a constant it doesnt increase.. power increases when mass is accelerated, hence ITF-V claiming the sine wave increases speed as its main result.Stuart





Again, again, I have high regard for the ITF-V Technical Comm. But you must direct yourself to the TofP & you will see for yourself, it is clearly stated SW is to assist in increasing mass. In other words, it helps you use more of your body. Now it also does say it does help increase speed. Please see the referenced pgs.

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#380183 - 02/02/08 12:40 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

If you understand the technical/scientific side of the sine wave.. this will be easy




I want you to know I was really laughing out loud when I read this, really an audible loud laugh!

I am getting better right?
Now I am off to sat date nite. Wish me luck!

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#380184 - 02/02/08 04:49 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
VDan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 80
ITF UNITY (Master),

Master Robert N. Wheatley, VIII, is my direct instructor - although any ITF 6th dan or up I look at as a valuable resource. Master Wheatley is coming out in April and I can provide you with more information as we draw closer?

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#380185 - 02/02/08 09:37 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDan]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

ITF UNITY (Master),

Master Robert N. Wheatley, VIII, is my direct instructor - although any ITF 6th dan or up I look at as a valuable resource. Master Wheatley is coming out in April and I can provide you with more information as we draw closer?




Don't forget to send the paperwork my way ! Also, what weekends are good this month for bringing a group down for training ? PM or call me please ?

Thanks,

VDJ

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