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#380156 - 02/01/08 11:42 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary.



Not the way I learnt it. I was specifically taught, knee spring to add power when stationary - whether the knee bend in the new/old sinewave is again, a different debate, but knee spring to me, is a seperate entity from sine wave. Stuart




Well Mr. Anslow, if you were taught wrong or with incorrect terminology, that respectfully means less in an arguement against what the founder taught. Take the 1st 3 patterns & the 1st 2 movements of each. There is SW for the low block, followed by middle punch in ChonJi, much the same as the knife hand guarding block & high punch in DanGun. Now DoSan has no stepping motion in its 1st 2 movements, but it has SW. One must relax, which gives the slight downward motion, then raises up & down again into the middle punch. Now you may call that something different, but the founder didn't, it was simply SW! Now of course SW evolved over the years, but it was always used for all movements, regardless of whether there was stepping or spot, stationary movement. The only exception is a connecting motion.
Now move to the 1st 3 movements of the 4th Tul, WonHyo. There is SW for all of these 1st 3 moves. The 1st 2, require knee spring to create the SW in the spot, much like DoSan. However, the 3rd move requires going from an L stane to a fixed stance, so the SW is created with knee spring, added by moving the front foot (left) slightly back, then forward to direction "B". So the SW is aided by both knee spring & the backward motion of the left leg. Now when it comes to stepping, SW is aided by the knee spring as well as the stepping motion in an outcurved line, which makes the flow of the SW. But knee spring is there as well.

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#380157 - 02/01/08 12:43 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Well Mr. Anslow, if you were taught wrong or with incorrect terminology, that respectfully means less in an arguement against what the founder taught.



I dont believe I was taught incorrectly at all. The argument you make is simply knee spring is similar to sine wave therefore its connected or a pre-cursor..it is simply an assumption... I say they are two different things and was taught that way! You also choose to go with the flow of the new sine wave thing, accepting the evolution was always on the cards and just wasnt taught that way originaly, where I say there was a disctinct change.. and it shoudl really have been called something else as it added to the confusion.

Quote:

Take the 1st 3 patterns & the 1st 2 movements of each. There is SW for the low block, followed by middle punch in ChonJi, much the same as the knife hand guarding block & high punch in DanGun.



Yes, I agree.. sinewave (both types)!!! No knee spring until...
Quote:

Now DoSan has no stepping motion in its 1st 2 movements, but it has SW.



Yes, SW on the first move (or simply dropping into it) followed with a knee spring on the second.. if both were the same, the leg motions would be identical, which they are not IMO. I just had a look at the Legacy pictures and they show a knee spring (vol 8/p231)

Quote:

Now you may call that something different, but the founder didn't, it was simply SW!



Actually he did, first he called it nothing at all, as seen in the 70s video clips, then he called it sine wave, as seen in his manuals & later clips - this had the up/down motion.. then he changed the motion slightly and remained calling it sine-wave!

Quote:

Now move to the 1st 3 movements of the 4th Tul, WonHyo. There is SW for all of these 1st 3 moves.



You rise and drop into each IMO aka original sine wave

Quote:

The 1st 2, require knee spring to create the SW in the spot, much like DoSan.



Sorry, disagree... you are in L stance, so knee spring isnt used as it travels in the wrong direction to aid the technique.. rise/drop AKA sine wave.. yes .. again, the Legacy pictures comfirm this (Vol9/page 43)

Quote:

However, the 3rd move requires going from an L stane to a fixed stance, so the SW is created with knee spring, added by moving the front foot (left) slightly back, then forward to direction "B".



Yonsok!! Obviously if you simply see any bend of the knee as a "knee spring" then it can be applied to any movement.. I was taught it as a specific manner, different from a basic flex of the knee.. by your definition we all do sine wave (new version) every time we walk... THIS however, was the idea behind the original sine wave.. as it was natural.. aka now called natural motion.


Quote:

So the SW is aided by both knee spring & the backward motion of the left leg. Now when it comes to stepping, SW is aided by the knee spring as well as the stepping motion in an outcurved line, which makes the flow of the SW. But knee spring is there as well.



Again, if you simply see any bend of the knee as a "knee spring" then it can be applied to any movement!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380158 - 02/01/08 02:41 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Ok, it is clear that in the beginning, there was simply karate & the horizontal or flat wave of moving. That is how I was taught. We also emphasized the hip twist, which is also common in the Japanese Arts, which was the root of TKD.

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring. I will drop the arguement of whether or not knee spring was the pre-cursor of SW. In fact, if you watch the evolution of the TKD TofP, you see it went from 4 factors to 5, then to the present 6 factors.

What is more important is that you may have been taught differently knee spring/SW. However, what is most important to know, if one wants to learn the SW as taught by the founder, they must not look at it as 2 seperate entities. Knee spring is an important & often necessary element to creating SW. In our system, SW is used in all movements, with the exception of a movement utilizing a connecting motion. What SW is, from a simple standpoint, is the attempt to use more of your body mass, which will hopefully increase the power of your technique. How you generate SW, depends on where you are, what you are doing & how you are going to do it. SW is used in both stationary & stepping movements. That is plain & simple. What is different, is how the wave is produced, with the hopes of increasing mass, which hopefully will increase ones' power. Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring. How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance. In the case of sitting stance, you relax, then raise up, uses the knees to straighten up a bit, then sink into the technique at the moment of execution. L stance, fixed stance would be the same, as both knees are already bent. In the case of walking stance, it is somewhat different, as the knees are in different positions, one straight, one bent. So we relax the rear leg, then raise the rear heel, coming down & executing the technique. Now a stance like closed stance, where both legs/knees are straight, you just relax, then raise the heelS & then execute the technique when coming back down.
Now when stepping, we use an outcurved line & the spring of the knees while stepping forward to create the SW. SW is just the raising of the body in order to use more of one's body when performing a technique. How that raising occurs, naturally depends on the position of the body prior to execution & where the technique will be executed (spot/stepping).

Now what has changed over the years with this movement, is the range & emphasis (60s-80s). Then the drastic change for some was the emphasis now placed on the downward movement prior to the raise. I was never taught in the 80s to go down before I went up, by the founder, Master Park & the other top world masters of the ITF at the time. In fact, Master Park used to say, when you get into the elevator (lift) & want to go from the 1st floor to the 5th, you press floor #5, you don't press B for basement, then go down to the basement, then press 5 to go up again. Now Gen Choi always relaxed, then went up/down. But this was a major emphasis post Master Park Jung Tae departure, who was the Chair of the ITF Instruction Comm.

So call it semantics, terminlogy or whatever, but knee spring was always a part of SW, since SW terminology was used. Knee spring also was in use, prior to the term SW being used.

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#380159 - 02/01/08 02:44 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Again, if you simply see any bend of the knee as a "knee spring" then it can be applied to any movement!!Stuart




Yes thats the point I think you may be misunderstanding. Knee spring is an essential part of SW, whether stepping or stationary.

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#380160 - 02/01/08 04:26 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes thats the point I think you may be misunderstanding. Knee spring is an essential part of SW, whether stepping or stationary.




well there you go then! I was taught knee spring as a sepertae entity to sine wave.

Quote:

Ok, it is clear that in the beginning, there was simply karate & the horizontal or flat wave of moving. That is how I was taught. We also emphasized the hip twist, which is also common in the Japanese Arts, which was the root of TKD.



Agreed. Horizontal wave is featured in Gen Chois book, along side sine wave.. which (in the book) shows no down or relax motion.

Quote:

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring.



really? Wheres the evidence of this? Personally, I think its what they eventually termed sine wave.. hence why when the newer version came out, the pioneers reverted back to calling it "Natural Motion"

Quote:

will drop the arguement of whether or not knee spring was the pre-cursor of SW.



Good.. cos its not

Quote:

In fact, if you watch the evolution of the TKD TofP, you see it went from 4 factors to 5, then to the present 6 factors.



Well i know sine-wave was tacked on later.. funnily enough once it chnaged from up/down to down or relax/up down!!! What was the 5th introduction (I cant be bother looking it up right now)

Quote:

What is more important is that you may have been taught differently knee spring/SW.



No, I wasnt taught differently.. I was taught they were different.. there is a difference there

Quote:

Knee spring is an important & often necessary element to creating SW.



Again.. bending your knee is not simply knee spring! But, as you outline in your last post, to you they are one & the same.. so Il agree and disagree at the same time

Quote:

In our system, SW is used in all movements, with the exception of a movement utilizing a connecting motion.



Another thing I dont agree with - what about horizontal and upwar techniques... and kicks?

Quote:

What SW is, from a simple standpoint, is the attempt to use more of your body mass, which will hopefully increase the power of your technique.



ITF-V research said it was meant to increase speed! Mass does not change, it is constant.. mass + speed = power... dropping into techniques has the same effect!

Quote:

SW is used in both stationary & stepping movements. That is plain & simple.



Obviously not.. hence this discussion!

Quote:

What is different, is how the wave is produced, with the hopes of increasing mass



But funnily enough they only demonstrate it one way.. so how can that be so!

Quote:

Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring.



This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.

Quote:

How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.



As I said above, it can only be used in forward facing stances as it locks the back knee/leg straigh to increease drive/power forward!

Quote:

SW is just the raising of the body in order to use more of one's body when performing a technique.



I know.. thats what Ive been saying!!!!!!

Quote:

(60s-80s). Then the drastic change for some was the emphasis now placed on the downward movement prior to the raise.



If a change is so drastic.. surely it should be given a new name!!

Quote:

I was never taught in the 80s to go down before I went up, by the founder, Master Park & the other top world masters of the ITF at the time. In fact, Master Park used to say, when you get into the elevator (lift) & want to go from the 1st floor to the 5th, you press floor #5, you don't press B for basement, then go down to the basement, then press 5 to go up again



Well.. you have just proved my point. Master Park was the top technical man in the ITF right.. and strangly enough, after he left the ITF this drastic change occured!!

Quote:

So call it semantics, terminlogy or whatever, but knee spring was always a part of SW, since SW terminology was used. Knee spring also was in use, prior to the term SW being used.



No.. bending the knee was... not knee spring! By calling a simple knee flexion "knee spring" you are simply confusing things.

Do you know what karate use horizontal wave? As it ensures constant practice of hip twist.. nhence why they are so good at it. I dont believe Gen Choi realised this, but he found another way.. the original sine wave. However, if stationary, rising and dropping is to slow to be effective.. hence knee spring which is executed at the same time (well split second before - during the build fast build up) as the tecnique. In fact knee spring hardly rises the body at all, unlike sine wave, as the knee bends but the heel rasies up and compensates. The final completion of knee spring is that it locks straight to accentuate fowrad motion akin to moving forward in walking stance.. without doing so!

In your examples the knee is straight until the send of the sine wave.. there is no spring (the locking straight motion) it simply bends to help the movement. I stand my ground.. they are not the same thing.. they are different entities!

Stuart


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380161 - 02/01/08 05:04 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
As a side note GM CK Choi still refers to things as natural motion and teaches that.

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#380162 - 02/01/08 08:20 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

As a side note GM CK Choi still refers to things as natural motion and teaches that.




Yes.. I think I might start refering to it that way as well.. as the difference is becomeing confusing and Im fed up explaining how/why it changed.. but it not fair <stamps feet a few times> as we (the up/down boys) had the term first..

Can you ask him if:

1. He has always called it natural motion or if he changed to (or back to) that when the new down/up/down version cmae out?

2. What his opinion on the kne spring is? (As I described above as a seperate thing or simply as part of the sine wave motion) Id be interested to see if he differed from GM Rhee in that.

Thanks,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380163 - 02/01/08 08:24 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring.



This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.



Sorry, I thought this read "if one is in a sitting stance".. doh! I couldnt edit my reply. Yes, if one is in a FORWARD facing stance, knee spring is used!
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380164 - 02/02/08 01:25 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Yes thats the point I think you may be misunderstanding. Knee spring is an essential part of SW, whether stepping or stationary.



well there you go then! I was taught knee spring as a sepertae entity to sine wave. Stuart




Yes I know & that is the problem. How you were taught is not the ITF way. I am not sure how you define knee spring. However, knee spring is an important element of SW, it always has been. SW is from the spot or moving. We are arguing over something that both of us has different definitions & concepts of

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#380165 - 02/02/08 02:05 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring.



really? Wheres the evidence of this? Personally, I think its what they eventually termed sine wave.. hence why when the newer version came out, the pioneers reverted back to calling it "Natural Motion" Stuart




Geez, the evidence for this is all over the place. Interview of Kim Yong Soo, the Chief Instructor for the ITF in Korea in the late 60s. He was a Chung Do Kwan convert. Gen Choi saw him demonstrate in the 1960s & asked him to come over to his style. He did. Gen Choi taught him all 24 patterns. he graduated the 1st ITF IICs & then taught it. He said many, including himself, were resistant to the new way, as old habits were hard to break. Eventually, after keeping at it, he embraced it & said he saw the scientific basis for it. At the time, they were taught SW. he said the gen likened it to a car's suspension, which added speed, which was needed for power. He also used the term knee spring. It was all part of the package from the early days. It was the terminology, Korean to English that evolved over the years, as well as the emphasis.

Now knee spring was used in the 1972 text & everyone since then. It was the 1983 1st ed of the 15 volumes, that 1st saw the English use of the term SW.

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