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#380146 - 01/28/08 12:13 PM Sine-Wave the early years
michaelboik Offline
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Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
I was looking at some old movies of the ITF and was observing how they move from on technique to another. Although it is not the Sine-Wave that you see today, there was an up and down motion through the techniques. These movies had to be made between 1968 and 1971 since 1: they had piping on their uniforms and 2: it was filmed while Gen. Choi was still in Korea. So almost Forty years ago the idea of using the Sinewave motion was being practiced. I have video of Master Nunez when he was a third degree and I'm going to compare the two and how the technique changed over ten years.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#380147 - 01/28/08 01:17 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think that you will find that in the late 60s, early 70s, there was a slight up/down movement, then called knee spring. The hip twist was still emphasized. It was not till the 80s when the term SW was used. When it was 1st taught, there was an up/down movement. In the early 90s, when 8th Dan Master Park Jung Tae, the Chair of the Instruction Comm left the ITF & formed the GTF, that the SW started to have the emphasis on the down/up/down movement that is IMHO exaggerated. My thought on this was that Gen Choi had a huge loss when he expelled Master Park. So he had to lessen the loss by saying (& he did) that he had a big task to correct the mistakes he made. Now all fairness, Gen Choi, when he moved, always moved in a slight down?up?down motion. This was what I believed was relax/up/down. JMHO

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#380148 - 01/28/08 01:48 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
michaelboik Offline
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Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
I feel the same way. Also I don't like the LOCOMOTION in the arms in the patterns. For example, Chon Ji, execute a low block w/ outer forarm then step forward and execute a middle obverse punch. When they start to move the resting fist comes forward then back then punch.
Training Secrets of TKD: all movements MUST start with a backwards movement with few exceptions.
_________________________
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#380149 - 01/28/08 08:10 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
flynch Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Yes it has been referred to as natural motion. There has always been a slight up and down motion which is produce when anybody is walking forward naturally. The General did/said many interesting things when his top people left.

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#380150 - 01/29/08 01:57 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
VDan Offline
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Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 80
I have seen very rare footage (from the early 70's) of many of the ITF Pioneers doing pre sine wave patterns (meaning more side-to-side movement). But you can still see knee spring movement in all of the patterns. The first time I watched them (at my Master's Home) it was great to see the look on his face when he said - here it comes - the start of sine wave. Sine wave, in my opinion, is the single biggest difference between ITF TKD and all the rest.

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#380151 - 01/29/08 04:38 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDan]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
VDan:
Is that footage from the Pioneers DVD? Or something else & who is your Master? You can PM me if you prefer.
Thanks

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#380152 - 01/31/08 09:49 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Knee spring IS NOT the early version of the sine wave. Knee spring was to help add power to stationary technique, the sine wave / natural motion and pre-naming it anything helps add power with the combined use of movement.

Before the term sine wave (either type) it can, as stated, be seen in the old TKD pionner videos (something I mention in the article I wrote some years back).. TKD masters can clearly eb seen rising & dropping into techniques (note: not dropping/rising/dropping) :-)

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380153 - 01/31/08 10:17 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Knee spring IS NOT the early version of the sine wave. Knee spring was to help add power to stationary technique, the sine wave / natural motion and pre-naming it anything helps add power with the combined use of movement.
Before the term sine wave (either type) it can, as stated, be seen in the old TKD pionner videos (something I mention in the article I wrote some years back).. TKD masters can clearly eb seen rising & dropping into techniques (note: not dropping/rising/dropping) :-)Stuart




Mr. Anslow:
We have gone back & forth with this more than once LOL It usually turns into a rather esoteric debate, but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary. It may also be just a matter of semantics, but knee spring was used to increase power, before the term SW was used. Now some will say it was the pre-cursor of SW, but it certainly pre-dates the use of it.
Now what was changed was the terms & the emphasis on the range of the dip. In the early 1990s, SW was then taught as an relax or down/up/down, resulting in the exaggerated SW movement that many do today. JMHO

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#380154 - 01/31/08 03:54 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I agree with Master Unity. I view the term Sine wave as having been coined simply to describe the motion General Choi was alluding to all along, although there were certainly refinements which means you end up in an esoteric debate about matters of degree etc.

To once again repeat an old story . My first course with General Choi and an in depth Sine Wave tutorial was in 1990. General Choi explained it as "Up Down" . I actualy flew Fabian Nunez to my school to help teach it because although I understood it he was able to demonstrate it better. At that time I examined what he did and told him it looked more like Down Up Down, At first he said No, and theen after giving it more thought he agreed but said the initial "Down" was just slight. If you know him, he is one of those people you love to hate because he can observe and assimilate motion easily without (Seemingly) having to give it much thought.

Subsequent to that GM Sereff told how he traveled with General Choi on a multi nation tour and watching General Choi teach while waiting with him on a train platform, it also became clear that there was an initial Down or relaxation motion. So, what you had was as much (if not more) of an evolution of the description and explanation of the motion, than an evolution of the motion itself. Later courses saw the down / relaxation description used for the initial motion.

Over time General Choi adopted and changed his terminology to ry and better explain other concepts as well. This included the term "Connecting Motion" and hearing him refer to Solar plexus line and then change it to center line.


Edited by EarlWeiss (01/31/08 03:57 PM)

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#380155 - 02/01/08 07:29 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I view the term Sine wave as having been coined simply to describe the motion General Choi was alluding to all along,



So do I.. but simply feel it was in regards to the motions decribed as being seen in the early TKD vids (the evolution of it is a different debate). I simply feel this is a seperate thing to the knee spring.


Quote:

We have gone back & forth with this more than once LOL It usually turns into a rather esoteric debate,



Yes I know.. but I must continue to struggle against the dark side

Quote:

but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary.



Not the way I learnt it. I was specifically taught, knee spring to add power when stationary - whether the knee bend in the new/old sinewave is again, a different debate, but knee spring to me, is a seperate entity from sine wave.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380156 - 02/01/08 11:42 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary.



Not the way I learnt it. I was specifically taught, knee spring to add power when stationary - whether the knee bend in the new/old sinewave is again, a different debate, but knee spring to me, is a seperate entity from sine wave. Stuart




Well Mr. Anslow, if you were taught wrong or with incorrect terminology, that respectfully means less in an arguement against what the founder taught. Take the 1st 3 patterns & the 1st 2 movements of each. There is SW for the low block, followed by middle punch in ChonJi, much the same as the knife hand guarding block & high punch in DanGun. Now DoSan has no stepping motion in its 1st 2 movements, but it has SW. One must relax, which gives the slight downward motion, then raises up & down again into the middle punch. Now you may call that something different, but the founder didn't, it was simply SW! Now of course SW evolved over the years, but it was always used for all movements, regardless of whether there was stepping or spot, stationary movement. The only exception is a connecting motion.
Now move to the 1st 3 movements of the 4th Tul, WonHyo. There is SW for all of these 1st 3 moves. The 1st 2, require knee spring to create the SW in the spot, much like DoSan. However, the 3rd move requires going from an L stane to a fixed stance, so the SW is created with knee spring, added by moving the front foot (left) slightly back, then forward to direction "B". So the SW is aided by both knee spring & the backward motion of the left leg. Now when it comes to stepping, SW is aided by the knee spring as well as the stepping motion in an outcurved line, which makes the flow of the SW. But knee spring is there as well.

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#380157 - 02/01/08 12:43 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Well Mr. Anslow, if you were taught wrong or with incorrect terminology, that respectfully means less in an arguement against what the founder taught.



I dont believe I was taught incorrectly at all. The argument you make is simply knee spring is similar to sine wave therefore its connected or a pre-cursor..it is simply an assumption... I say they are two different things and was taught that way! You also choose to go with the flow of the new sine wave thing, accepting the evolution was always on the cards and just wasnt taught that way originaly, where I say there was a disctinct change.. and it shoudl really have been called something else as it added to the confusion.

Quote:

Take the 1st 3 patterns & the 1st 2 movements of each. There is SW for the low block, followed by middle punch in ChonJi, much the same as the knife hand guarding block & high punch in DanGun.



Yes, I agree.. sinewave (both types)!!! No knee spring until...
Quote:

Now DoSan has no stepping motion in its 1st 2 movements, but it has SW.



Yes, SW on the first move (or simply dropping into it) followed with a knee spring on the second.. if both were the same, the leg motions would be identical, which they are not IMO. I just had a look at the Legacy pictures and they show a knee spring (vol 8/p231)

Quote:

Now you may call that something different, but the founder didn't, it was simply SW!



Actually he did, first he called it nothing at all, as seen in the 70s video clips, then he called it sine wave, as seen in his manuals & later clips - this had the up/down motion.. then he changed the motion slightly and remained calling it sine-wave!

Quote:

Now move to the 1st 3 movements of the 4th Tul, WonHyo. There is SW for all of these 1st 3 moves.



You rise and drop into each IMO aka original sine wave

Quote:

The 1st 2, require knee spring to create the SW in the spot, much like DoSan.



Sorry, disagree... you are in L stance, so knee spring isnt used as it travels in the wrong direction to aid the technique.. rise/drop AKA sine wave.. yes .. again, the Legacy pictures comfirm this (Vol9/page 43)

Quote:

However, the 3rd move requires going from an L stane to a fixed stance, so the SW is created with knee spring, added by moving the front foot (left) slightly back, then forward to direction "B".



Yonsok!! Obviously if you simply see any bend of the knee as a "knee spring" then it can be applied to any movement.. I was taught it as a specific manner, different from a basic flex of the knee.. by your definition we all do sine wave (new version) every time we walk... THIS however, was the idea behind the original sine wave.. as it was natural.. aka now called natural motion.


Quote:

So the SW is aided by both knee spring & the backward motion of the left leg. Now when it comes to stepping, SW is aided by the knee spring as well as the stepping motion in an outcurved line, which makes the flow of the SW. But knee spring is there as well.



Again, if you simply see any bend of the knee as a "knee spring" then it can be applied to any movement!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380158 - 02/01/08 02:41 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Ok, it is clear that in the beginning, there was simply karate & the horizontal or flat wave of moving. That is how I was taught. We also emphasized the hip twist, which is also common in the Japanese Arts, which was the root of TKD.

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring. I will drop the arguement of whether or not knee spring was the pre-cursor of SW. In fact, if you watch the evolution of the TKD TofP, you see it went from 4 factors to 5, then to the present 6 factors.

What is more important is that you may have been taught differently knee spring/SW. However, what is most important to know, if one wants to learn the SW as taught by the founder, they must not look at it as 2 seperate entities. Knee spring is an important & often necessary element to creating SW. In our system, SW is used in all movements, with the exception of a movement utilizing a connecting motion. What SW is, from a simple standpoint, is the attempt to use more of your body mass, which will hopefully increase the power of your technique. How you generate SW, depends on where you are, what you are doing & how you are going to do it. SW is used in both stationary & stepping movements. That is plain & simple. What is different, is how the wave is produced, with the hopes of increasing mass, which hopefully will increase ones' power. Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring. How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance. In the case of sitting stance, you relax, then raise up, uses the knees to straighten up a bit, then sink into the technique at the moment of execution. L stance, fixed stance would be the same, as both knees are already bent. In the case of walking stance, it is somewhat different, as the knees are in different positions, one straight, one bent. So we relax the rear leg, then raise the rear heel, coming down & executing the technique. Now a stance like closed stance, where both legs/knees are straight, you just relax, then raise the heelS & then execute the technique when coming back down.
Now when stepping, we use an outcurved line & the spring of the knees while stepping forward to create the SW. SW is just the raising of the body in order to use more of one's body when performing a technique. How that raising occurs, naturally depends on the position of the body prior to execution & where the technique will be executed (spot/stepping).

Now what has changed over the years with this movement, is the range & emphasis (60s-80s). Then the drastic change for some was the emphasis now placed on the downward movement prior to the raise. I was never taught in the 80s to go down before I went up, by the founder, Master Park & the other top world masters of the ITF at the time. In fact, Master Park used to say, when you get into the elevator (lift) & want to go from the 1st floor to the 5th, you press floor #5, you don't press B for basement, then go down to the basement, then press 5 to go up again. Now Gen Choi always relaxed, then went up/down. But this was a major emphasis post Master Park Jung Tae departure, who was the Chair of the ITF Instruction Comm.

So call it semantics, terminlogy or whatever, but knee spring was always a part of SW, since SW terminology was used. Knee spring also was in use, prior to the term SW being used.

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#380159 - 02/01/08 02:44 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Again, if you simply see any bend of the knee as a "knee spring" then it can be applied to any movement!!Stuart




Yes thats the point I think you may be misunderstanding. Knee spring is an essential part of SW, whether stepping or stationary.

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#380160 - 02/01/08 04:26 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes thats the point I think you may be misunderstanding. Knee spring is an essential part of SW, whether stepping or stationary.




well there you go then! I was taught knee spring as a sepertae entity to sine wave.

Quote:

Ok, it is clear that in the beginning, there was simply karate & the horizontal or flat wave of moving. That is how I was taught. We also emphasized the hip twist, which is also common in the Japanese Arts, which was the root of TKD.



Agreed. Horizontal wave is featured in Gen Chois book, along side sine wave.. which (in the book) shows no down or relax motion.

Quote:

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring.



really? Wheres the evidence of this? Personally, I think its what they eventually termed sine wave.. hence why when the newer version came out, the pioneers reverted back to calling it "Natural Motion"

Quote:

will drop the arguement of whether or not knee spring was the pre-cursor of SW.



Good.. cos its not

Quote:

In fact, if you watch the evolution of the TKD TofP, you see it went from 4 factors to 5, then to the present 6 factors.



Well i know sine-wave was tacked on later.. funnily enough once it chnaged from up/down to down or relax/up down!!! What was the 5th introduction (I cant be bother looking it up right now)

Quote:

What is more important is that you may have been taught differently knee spring/SW.



No, I wasnt taught differently.. I was taught they were different.. there is a difference there

Quote:

Knee spring is an important & often necessary element to creating SW.



Again.. bending your knee is not simply knee spring! But, as you outline in your last post, to you they are one & the same.. so Il agree and disagree at the same time

Quote:

In our system, SW is used in all movements, with the exception of a movement utilizing a connecting motion.



Another thing I dont agree with - what about horizontal and upwar techniques... and kicks?

Quote:

What SW is, from a simple standpoint, is the attempt to use more of your body mass, which will hopefully increase the power of your technique.



ITF-V research said it was meant to increase speed! Mass does not change, it is constant.. mass + speed = power... dropping into techniques has the same effect!

Quote:

SW is used in both stationary & stepping movements. That is plain & simple.



Obviously not.. hence this discussion!

Quote:

What is different, is how the wave is produced, with the hopes of increasing mass



But funnily enough they only demonstrate it one way.. so how can that be so!

Quote:

Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring.



This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.

Quote:

How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.



As I said above, it can only be used in forward facing stances as it locks the back knee/leg straigh to increease drive/power forward!

Quote:

SW is just the raising of the body in order to use more of one's body when performing a technique.



I know.. thats what Ive been saying!!!!!!

Quote:

(60s-80s). Then the drastic change for some was the emphasis now placed on the downward movement prior to the raise.



If a change is so drastic.. surely it should be given a new name!!

Quote:

I was never taught in the 80s to go down before I went up, by the founder, Master Park & the other top world masters of the ITF at the time. In fact, Master Park used to say, when you get into the elevator (lift) & want to go from the 1st floor to the 5th, you press floor #5, you don't press B for basement, then go down to the basement, then press 5 to go up again



Well.. you have just proved my point. Master Park was the top technical man in the ITF right.. and strangly enough, after he left the ITF this drastic change occured!!

Quote:

So call it semantics, terminlogy or whatever, but knee spring was always a part of SW, since SW terminology was used. Knee spring also was in use, prior to the term SW being used.



No.. bending the knee was... not knee spring! By calling a simple knee flexion "knee spring" you are simply confusing things.

Do you know what karate use horizontal wave? As it ensures constant practice of hip twist.. nhence why they are so good at it. I dont believe Gen Choi realised this, but he found another way.. the original sine wave. However, if stationary, rising and dropping is to slow to be effective.. hence knee spring which is executed at the same time (well split second before - during the build fast build up) as the tecnique. In fact knee spring hardly rises the body at all, unlike sine wave, as the knee bends but the heel rasies up and compensates. The final completion of knee spring is that it locks straight to accentuate fowrad motion akin to moving forward in walking stance.. without doing so!

In your examples the knee is straight until the send of the sine wave.. there is no spring (the locking straight motion) it simply bends to help the movement. I stand my ground.. they are not the same thing.. they are different entities!

Stuart


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380161 - 02/01/08 05:04 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
As a side note GM CK Choi still refers to things as natural motion and teaches that.

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#380162 - 02/01/08 08:20 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

As a side note GM CK Choi still refers to things as natural motion and teaches that.




Yes.. I think I might start refering to it that way as well.. as the difference is becomeing confusing and Im fed up explaining how/why it changed.. but it not fair <stamps feet a few times> as we (the up/down boys) had the term first..

Can you ask him if:

1. He has always called it natural motion or if he changed to (or back to) that when the new down/up/down version cmae out?

2. What his opinion on the kne spring is? (As I described above as a seperate thing or simply as part of the sine wave motion) Id be interested to see if he differed from GM Rhee in that.

Thanks,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380163 - 02/01/08 08:24 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring.



This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.



Sorry, I thought this read "if one is in a sitting stance".. doh! I couldnt edit my reply. Yes, if one is in a FORWARD facing stance, knee spring is used!
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380164 - 02/02/08 01:25 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Yes thats the point I think you may be misunderstanding. Knee spring is an essential part of SW, whether stepping or stationary.



well there you go then! I was taught knee spring as a sepertae entity to sine wave. Stuart




Yes I know & that is the problem. How you were taught is not the ITF way. I am not sure how you define knee spring. However, knee spring is an important element of SW, it always has been. SW is from the spot or moving. We are arguing over something that both of us has different definitions & concepts of

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#380165 - 02/02/08 02:05 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring.



really? Wheres the evidence of this? Personally, I think its what they eventually termed sine wave.. hence why when the newer version came out, the pioneers reverted back to calling it "Natural Motion" Stuart




Geez, the evidence for this is all over the place. Interview of Kim Yong Soo, the Chief Instructor for the ITF in Korea in the late 60s. He was a Chung Do Kwan convert. Gen Choi saw him demonstrate in the 1960s & asked him to come over to his style. He did. Gen Choi taught him all 24 patterns. he graduated the 1st ITF IICs & then taught it. He said many, including himself, were resistant to the new way, as old habits were hard to break. Eventually, after keeping at it, he embraced it & said he saw the scientific basis for it. At the time, they were taught SW. he said the gen likened it to a car's suspension, which added speed, which was needed for power. He also used the term knee spring. It was all part of the package from the early days. It was the terminology, Korean to English that evolved over the years, as well as the emphasis.

Now knee spring was used in the 1972 text & everyone since then. It was the 1983 1st ed of the 15 volumes, that 1st saw the English use of the term SW.

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#380166 - 02/02/08 02:16 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

will drop the arguement of whether or not knee spring was the pre-cursor of SW.



Good.. cos its not Stuart




It is clear to me, that it is/was. Why I am dropping it, is that it is confusing the arguement. Raising the body to increase mass & speed, was used from the 1960s. It was just not accepted &/or adopted by all/many. This arguement is 1 of semantics. The Koreans wanted to raise the hips, in addition to twist the hips. I do not get bogged down by what they call it, as they spoke a different & the & I think I have a good guess why. However, this is not the point. SW is utilized in the spot or stepping. It always was for me, when I started learning it in the mid 80s. You never learned it that way. No problem. However, in this aspect, since you don't see it that way, I am only respectfully suggesting that you are not accepting the way it was taught by the ITF.

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#380167 - 02/02/08 02:24 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

In fact, if you watch the evolution of the TKD TofP, you see it went from 4 factors to 5, then to the present 6 factors.



Well i know sine-wave was tacked on later.. funnily enough once it chnaged from up/down to down or relax/up down!!! What was the 5th introduction (I cant be bother looking it up right now) Stuart




Theory of Power:
1965 Text had 4 factors - reaction force, concentration, balance & breath control
1972 Text had 5 factors - with speed being added
1975 Text had 6 factors - with mass being added

SW was NEVER a part of the T of P. It is the way we increase MASS & SPEED, 2 factors of the TofP.

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#380168 - 02/02/08 02:34 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What is more important is that you may have been taught differently knee spring/SW.



No, I wasnt taught differently.. I was taught they were different.. there is a difference there
Quote:

Knee spring is an important & often necessary element to creating SW.



Again.. bending your knee is not simply knee spring! But, as you outline in your last post, to you they are one & the same.. so Il agree and disagree at the same time




This just highlights the fact that we are not understanding each other, as we have a different basis for our arguements. To me, it is clear from my research, that a raising of the hip movement was used from early on. It was not widely accepted or even learned. The terms evolved as the founder realized there were better words that would relay what he wanted in Korean to English. This is complicated by the fact, that the specific way they were moving changed as well.

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#380169 - 02/02/08 02:38 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

In our system, SW is used in all movements, with the exception of a movement utilizing a connecting motion.



Another thing I dont agree with - what about horizontal and upwar techniques... and kicks?




Sorry, you are right. I miss spoke(wrote). I was confusing elements of the training secret with the TofP. Lets keep the kicks out of this, as that would get really confusing. However, the upward punch in Hwarang has stationary SW in it, as does the horizontal punch in PoEun.

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#380170 - 02/02/08 02:49 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What SW is, from a simple standpoint, is the attempt to use more of your body mass, which will hopefully increase the power of your technique.



ITF-V research said it was meant to increase speed! Mass does not change, it is constant.. mass + speed = power... dropping into techniques has the same effect!

Quote:

SW is used in both stationary & stepping movements. That is plain & simple.



Obviously not.. hence this discussion!




Sorry, SW is to increase mass & speed up the technique. Reference the TofP. (Ref pgs 29-37 of the 15 vols)

Please refer to vols 3, 6 & 8. Other exmaples appear, but it is plain to see that SW is most definately utilized with both stepping & stationary movements. Also see pgs 416 & 417 of the condensed book (2004 ed).

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#380171 - 02/02/08 02:53 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What is different, is how the wave is produced, with the hopes of increasing mass



But funnily enough they only demonstrate it one way.. so how can that be so!
Quote:

Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring.



This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.
Quote:

How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.



As I said above, it can only be used in forward facing stances as it locks the back knee/leg straigh to increease drive/power forward!
Quote:

SW is just the raising of the body in order to use more of one's body when performing a technique.



I know.. thats what Ive been saying!!!!!!




I think that you are not following the tenet of the training secret that relates to SW. In order to create a SW, you must utilize the knee spring properly.

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#380172 - 02/02/08 03:12 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

(60s-80s). Then the drastic change for some was the emphasis now placed on the downward movement prior to the raise.



If a change is so drastic.. surely it should be given a new name!!
Quote:

I was never taught in the 80s to go down before I went up, by the founder, Master Park & the other top world masters of the ITF at the time. In fact, Master Park used to say, when you get into the elevator (lift) & want to go from the 1st floor to the 5th, you press floor #5, you don't press B for basement, then go down to the basement, then press 5 to go up again



Well.. you have just proved my point. Master Park was the top technical man in the ITF right.. and strangly enough, after he left the ITF this drastic change occured!!
Quote:

So call it semantics, terminlogy or whatever, but knee spring was always a part of SW, since SW terminology was used. Knee spring also was in use, prior to the term SW being used.



No.. bending the knee was... not knee spring! By calling a simple knee flexion "knee spring" you are simply confusing things.
Do you know what karate use horizontal wave? As it ensures constant practice of hip twist.. nhence why they are so good at it. I dont believe Gen Choi realised this, but he found another way.. the original sine wave. However, if stationary, rising and dropping is to slow to be effective.. hence knee spring which is executed at the same time (well split second before - during the build fast build up) as the tecnique. In fact knee spring hardly rises the body at all, unlike sine wave, as the knee bends but the heel rasies up and compensates. The final completion of knee spring is that it locks straight to accentuate fowrad motion akin to moving forward in walking stance.. without doing so!
In your examples the knee is straight until the send of the sine wave.. there is no spring (the locking straight motion) it simply bends to help the movement. I stand my ground.. they are not the same thing.. they are different entities! Stuart




You Sir are wearing me out! I have aged hours in making these replies. You seem to be hung up on the evolution of SW or raising the hip to increase mass & speed. I don't understand what you mean by knee spring. There are various ways that we raise our hips to increase mass/speed. How we do that, depends on where we are, what we want to do & where we are going to do it. You don't seem to follow me on this Now the change did not need a new name, as it was not sold as a change, but rather a correction of the mistakes taught by the former Chairman. Don't mix up terminology with the volution of the SW.

I give up for now as we are & need to

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#380173 - 02/02/08 06:48 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Stuart A >>>This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As I said above, it can only be used in forward facing stances as it locks the back knee/leg straigh to increease drive/power forward!
<<<<

These staetemnts are incorrect. The rear leg knee does not have to be locked fr knee spring or sine wave, nor is it restricted to the stances stated.

I would like to know where this misinformation originated?

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#380174 - 02/02/08 06:51 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


really? Wheres the evidence of this? Personally, I think its what they eventually termed sine wave.. hence why when the newer version came out, the pioneers reverted back to calling it "Natural Motion" Stuart
<<<

FWIW in the USA we were calling it "Spring Style in the 1970's, this was around the time of the World Champs in 1974, and we were still affiliated with Han Cha Kyo.

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#380175 - 02/02/08 09:29 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Geez.. you guys always double team me
Quote:

FWIW in the USA we were calling it "Spring Style in the 1970's, this was around the time of the World Champs in 1974, and we were still affiliated with Han Cha Kyo.



Thnaks for the info Earl.. thats interesting and personally i find that fine and acceptable.. its not "knee spring" and could be something different, hence why I find it agreeable. cheers.

------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

Yes I know & that is the problem. How you were taught is not the ITF way.



How do you figure that considering my linage goes via GM Rhee!!

Quote:

I am not sure how you define knee spring.



I described it in one of the recent posts! I dont disagree that flexing the knee isnt a part of the newer sine wave, just that its not the same thing as I was taught what was termed "knee spring"

Quote:

Geez, the evidence for this is all over the place. Interview of Kim Yong Soo, the Chief Instructor for the ITF in Korea in the late 60s.



I dont have the interview and have never read it.. though I'd be interested in reading it of course.

Quote:

He said many, including himself, were resistant to the new way, as old habits were hard to break.



Horizontal to (original) sine wave was what he may have been alluding to!! After all, the "relax/down" wasnt even mentioned back then!

Quote:

SW was NEVER a part of the T of P. It is the way we increase MASS & SPEED, 2 factors of the TofP.



Sorry, I meant the training secrets thing, not T of P

Quote:

This just highlights the fact that we are not understanding each other, as we have a different basis for our arguements. To me, it is clear from my research, that a raising of the hip movement was used from early on.



I havnt once disagreed with this!!! But, if raising the knee, it straightens, not bends.. hence where the the knee spring back to

Quote:

Sorry, SW is to increase mass & speed up the technique. Reference the TofP. (Ref pgs 29-37 of the 15 vols)



Again, mass is a constant it doesnt increase.. power increases when mass is accelerated, hence ITF-V claiming the sine wave increases speed as its main result.

Quote:

You seem to be hung up on the evolution of SW or raising the hip to increase mass & speed.



well you know that already.. you know I dont agree the new version was implimeneted to benefit TKD.. which is my main issue with it.. its not SW I disagree with, just the new version and the reasons why it was put into force.

Quote:

I would like to know where this misinformation originated?



From the way my instructor taught knee spring, which was taught to him by his... etc. etc. end at GM Rhee! But its a mute point if we are refering to different things.. yours a spart of a motion, mine "as" the motion.

Stuart

ps. I should point out to anyone reading this that myself and ITFunity do actually get along quite well
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380176 - 02/02/08 11:29 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.
------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to know where this misinformation originated?




I think this should read, how the hips are raised, depends on the stance one is in. Sorry I can't do the fancy quotes in one reply, so all my back & forth tends to confuse my little pea brain. I hope I am not losing others with that format.

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#380177 - 02/02/08 11:55 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I give up for now as we are & need to




-- LOL


Quote:

Sorry I can't do the fancy quotes in one reply, so all my back & forth tends to confuse my little pea brain. I hope I am not losing others with that format.




ITFunity simply write the word "quote" and put a bracket either side of it [ ] at the front of what you want to quote, and at the end, the same thing with a forward slash eg. [/quote*]

--delete the stars--

Example:
[quote*]we love ITFunity[/quote*]
=
Quote:

we love ITFunity




or

simply hit the quote button in the box on the right when editting and cut & past what you want quoted between the boxes.

If you understand the technical/scientific side of the sine wave.. this will be easy
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380178 - 02/02/08 11:59 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Posts: 2053
Quote:

------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

Yes I know & that is the problem. How you were taught is not the ITF way.



How do you figure that considering my linage goes via GM Rhee!! Stuart
ps. I should point out to anyone reading this that myself and ITFunity do actually get along quite well




Yes this has always been a BIG problem in the ITF. Especially with complex issues like SW, which was not widely accepted. This was also why it, SW & the movement, along with the patterns was also emphasized & picked apart at the seminars with the founder. The truth of the matter is, that often techniques did not flow down to the students without corruption, confusion & the influence of individual instructors. This is why I find it such a remarkable accomplishment by the founder, where we can boast of a WCs, with students from all around the world, basically moving as if they all had one teacher, training in 1 school. That I think is unprecedented, AFAIK! That is why he didn't get into SD, HooSinSul & other aspects of his Art. There was not enough time & these areas had a sense of individuality that did not require, nor were they necessarily beneficial to have everyone do it one way.

Now as far as GM Rhee goes, remember, he was not the Ambassador's best student ever, because of technical awareness. he was because of one simple thing, that actually is not so simple to be: LOYALTY. He was the only Korean to remain with the founder from start to finish. Now he was one of the super human specimens that a military General had access to. But I think one would have a hard time on saying who was the best physical student. Some had better flexibilty, more power, better jumpers etc. However, there is no doubt he was very, very talented. Now post ITF split, there have been senior members that have said he is old school. Now I have trained with him on more than one occassion, in several types of settings & he seems very knowledgeable to me. I cheerish the opportunities to gain any insight he has to offer.

Now training with someone, who trained with him, or can trace their lineage to him, is great. However, in an ITF Chang Hon style, that has controversial & often poor acceptance of certain issues, that also was constantly evolving, can tend to leave someone somewhat removed.

So the use of the knee was always instrumental in raising the hip in order to increase power. As you can see, different people referred to it with various terms, as they were going from Korean to English. According to GM Kim Yong Soo (July 05 issue of the UK publication) as reported by Mr. Phillip Hawkins, SW & knee spring was there in the late 60s. He was after all the ITF Chief Instructor in Seoul. Now from my understanding, many came in for the course, as a requirement to travel abroad. There were also others who came back for refresher updates when they came home to visit family. Many of these simply learned the Chang Hon Tuls, but continued doing them with the old style motion.

So call it what you want, but the raising of the hips was there in the 60s. Now how the hips were raised & the emphasis did change. That is easy to see, but a whole other topic.

Finally, Mr. Anslow is a very talented, informed MAists. I am proud to call him my friend & I have learned so much from him, via my communications with him, his book & these forums.

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#380179 - 02/02/08 12:15 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Can you ask him if:
1. He has always called it natural motion or if he changed to (or back to) that when the new down/up/down version cmae out?
2. What his opinion on the knee spring is? (As I described above as a seperate thing or simply as part of the sine wave motion) Id be interested to see if he differed from GM Rhee in that. Thanks, Stuart




The way GM CK Choi has explained & demonstrated it, appears to be just the naturally flexing of the knee that occurs when walking. (This flexing of the knee results in the hip being raised slightly. MY words) The impression I get is that he was not with the ITF when they emphasized the UP, then down movement, so he does not agree with the 80s version, but certainly disagrees more with the exaggerated 90s movement of DOWN, then up down movement. He also does not like the use of the term SW, which I think supports my interpetation.

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#380180 - 02/02/08 12:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Finally, Mr. Anslow is a very talented, informed MAists. I am proud to call him my friend & I have learned so much from him, via my communications with him, his book & these forums.



See, now I feel bad arguing with you. The same is true in reverse btw.. i have learnt much from you too

So.. Ill just pick up on three points:

Quote:

According to GM Kim Yong Soo (July 05 issue of the UK publication) as reported by Mr. Phillip Hawkins, SW & knee spring was there in the late 60s.



That could actually go some way to verify what said about them being different entities.. unless he elaborated that knee spring was simply part of sine wave!

Quote:

Now as far as GM Rhee goes, remember, he was not the Ambassador's best student ever, because of technical awareness. he was because of one simple thing, that actually is not so simple to be: LOYALTY.



well I never mentioned about that part in this discussion.. but I know Gen Choi said it, but I have never heard him say it was because he was loyal.. perhaps you have, I dont know! So I can only take it as I hear it!


Quote:

However, in an ITF Chang Hon style, that has controversial & often poor acceptance of certain issues, that also was constantly evolving, can tend to leave someone somewhat removed.



Well as you said in your last post, Patterns were the one part of TKD Gen Choi wanted unified & samey, and thats what he achieved (by your own admission).. the sw is part of all patterns, so why would it not be transfered along the line when the patterns were done in this way so well!! It doesnt make sense!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380181 - 02/02/08 12:23 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Geez.. you guys always double team me

Thats because we both had the honor of training with the founder & other pioneers & we both share the fact that we were fortunate enough to absorb a bit of the information they passed along.



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#380182 - 02/02/08 12:34 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Geez, the evidence for this is all over the place. Interview of Kim Yong Soo, the Chief Instructor for the ITF in Korea in the late 60s.



I dont have the interview and have never read it.. though I'd be interested in reading it of course.
Quote:



It is on its way to you. I also have not forgotten about your e-mails, but I must 1st grease the wheels & am working on another project(s) with time constraints & trying to salvage my most important relationship.

Quote:

Sorry, SW is to increase mass & speed up the technique. Reference the TofP. (Ref pgs 29-37 of the 15 vols)



Again, mass is a constant it doesnt increase.. power increases when mass is accelerated, hence ITF-V claiming the sine wave increases speed as its main result.Stuart





Again, again, I have high regard for the ITF-V Technical Comm. But you must direct yourself to the TofP & you will see for yourself, it is clearly stated SW is to assist in increasing mass. In other words, it helps you use more of your body. Now it also does say it does help increase speed. Please see the referenced pgs.

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#380183 - 02/02/08 12:40 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

If you understand the technical/scientific side of the sine wave.. this will be easy




I want you to know I was really laughing out loud when I read this, really an audible loud laugh!

I am getting better right?
Now I am off to sat date nite. Wish me luck!

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#380184 - 02/02/08 04:49 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
VDan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 80
ITF UNITY (Master),

Master Robert N. Wheatley, VIII, is my direct instructor - although any ITF 6th dan or up I look at as a valuable resource. Master Wheatley is coming out in April and I can provide you with more information as we draw closer?

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#380185 - 02/02/08 09:37 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDan]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

ITF UNITY (Master),

Master Robert N. Wheatley, VIII, is my direct instructor - although any ITF 6th dan or up I look at as a valuable resource. Master Wheatley is coming out in April and I can provide you with more information as we draw closer?




Don't forget to send the paperwork my way ! Also, what weekends are good this month for bringing a group down for training ? PM or call me please ?

Thanks,

VDJ

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#380186 - 02/03/08 02:02 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

Quote:

Can you ask him if:
1. He has always called it natural motion or if he changed to (or back to) that when the new down/up/down version cmae out?
2. What his opinion on the knee spring is? (As I described above as a seperate thing or simply as part of the sine wave motion) Id be interested to see if he differed from GM Rhee in that. Thanks, Stuart




The way GM CK Choi has explained & demonstrated it, appears to be just the naturally flexing of the knee that occurs when walking. (This flexing of the knee results in the hip being raised slightly. MY words) The impression I get is that he was not with the ITF when they emphasized the UP, then down movement, so he does not agree with the 80s version, but certainly disagrees more with the exaggerated 90s movement of DOWN, then up down movement. He also does not like the use of the term SW, which I think supports my interpetation.




GM CK Choi was with the ITF until the general took the demo team to North Korean after everyone agreed to tour both North Korea and South Korea.

I think ITFunity sort of gets it although GM CK Choi does emphasise the twisting of the body (I assume this is hip twist). I know this because I was taught to go up and down originally so I have done that when trainning with him and he has stopped me mid pattern and manually moved my upperbody to force me to rotate into the technique at the waiste to produce power instead of only bouncing up and down. While I did learn the SW in the mid to late 80s from General Choi's direct student and current ITF Master. (An interesting story of how he became General Choi's student but well skip that although it does lead credence to many things I have been told)

I would say that GM CK Choi feels that when moving from one technique to another in a pattern or from one step to another when walking the body produces a natural sine wave motion. This is distinctly different from the karate motion which was being doen by the Korean Karate people at the time. There is no need to over exagerate it. If increasing this sine wave is a method thought of to create more power for a technique through greater acceleration (not only a forward but also a downward vector) this may or may not be so. But it could be probable (though not definitive) that this may create an increase in power for a point in your technique. It is not really of any consequense though if at one point in your execution of a single technique you have a slight increase in power. If the total time of the execution of your technique is greater (due to the down up down motion) than the total time of your opponent's because you will never get a chance to complete your slightly more powerful technique and strike your opponent. You will have already been hit thus negating any supposed advantage you think you have with your more powerful technique.

If the General made a change to the ITF patterns after he forced all his best practioners to leave you just have to look at it and ask if it is better for the art of self defense or worse. Is it a practical improvement or is it for politics.

This lead us into the discussion in the patterns are a form of trainning or if they are only for the sake of art. Which I think is alway the key to any of these discussions. If they are a form of trainning for self defense then we look at each technique and determine if they are performed in a way which improves your ability to defend yourself. On several occassions we have picked apart techniques which have been changed to see what is the purpose and then tested it in a real life situation.

If the forms are only for art. This is what I have been told by many current high ranking black belts. They say the patterns are the art side of the martial art and have nothing to do with self defense. this is what they actually tech their students. If this is the case then it really doesn't matter how you perform them. If you like how the general left them then do it that way sine wave, down up down, changed movements, politically motivated patterns. It then has become only an exercise and there is no way to determine if the movements are correct other than because the General said so. The this leads us down the path of new "generals" saying that the patterns should have been done a different way or the latest one; well this is what the General really meant and so they vote on it and make changes.

Sorry for the rant but it gives context.

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#380187 - 02/03/08 02:19 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

This is why I find it such a remarkable accomplishment by the founder, where we can boast of a WCs, with students from all around the world, basically moving as if they all had one teacher, training in 1 school. That I think is unprecedented, AFAIK! That is why he didn't get into SD, HooSinSul & other aspects of his Art. There was not enough time & these areas had a sense of individuality that did not require, nor were they necessarily beneficial to have everyone do it one way.






I agree with your first point I think the standardization was amazing and the General was a true leader. Your second point about him not being able to get into the rest I have a harder time beleiving. I know his passion was the patterns but I wonder if that was what he knew I don't see the evidence of him being a a fighter or trainned in self defense. If I am misisng something please let me know I would appreciate more information on this aspect of his personnal training or the demostrations he personnally gave.

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#380188 - 02/03/08 10:57 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

But you must direct yourself to the TofP & you will see for yourself, it is clearly stated SW is to assist in increasing mass.



The wording may be incorrect, as mass cannot be increased.. though power can M x S = P

Quote:

In other words, it helps you use more of your body. Now it also does say it does help increase speed.



Yes, I understand what its implying.

Quote:


Now I am off to sat date nite. Wish me luck!




I hope it went well. Whens the wedding?
-----------------------------------------------------

Thanks Flynch for the response.

Quote:

It is not really of any consequense though if at one point in your execution of a single technique you have a slight increase in power. If the total time of the execution of your technique is greater (due to the down up down motion) than the total time of your opponent's because you will never get a chance to complete your slightly more powerful technique and strike your opponent. You will have already been hit thus negating any supposed advantage you think you have with your more powerful technique.



Exactly the point I made in that article all those years back!

Quote:

If the General made a change to the ITF patterns after he forced all his best practioners to leave you just have to look at it and ask if it is better for the art of self defense or worse. Is it a practical improvement or is it for politics.



this too.

Quote:

This lead us into the discussion in the patterns are a form of trainning or if they are only for the sake of art. Which I think is alway the key to any of these discussions.



And this - and Gen Choi clearly stated his reasoning for them in his definition of tul!

Thanks,

Stuart

Ps.
Quote:

(An interesting story of how he became General Choi's student but well skip that although it does lead credence to many things I have been told)



Feel free to put the details down
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#380189 - 02/03/08 11:53 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDan]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITF UNITY, Master Robert N. Wheatley, VIII, is my direct instructor - although any ITF 6th dan or up I look at as a valuable resource. Master Wheatley is coming out in April and I can provide you with more information as we draw closer?



Thank you, but travel is difficult for me. I understand that Master Wheatley is very talented, knowledgeable, a great instructor & very nice man. You are very lucky! Good luck. BTW I would not limit resources to 6th dan & above. I have learned & still do learn from many, including those who some would view as my juniors.

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#380190 - 02/03/08 12:06 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

I want you to know I was really laughing out loud when I read this, really an audible loud laugh!

I am getting better right?




Good and yes, getting better.


Quote:

I also have not forgotten about your e-mails, but I must 1st grease the wheels & am working on another project(s) with time constraints & trying to salvage my most important relationship.



No problem. I appreciate your efforts.

thanks,

Stuart
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#380191 - 02/03/08 12:15 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

That could actually go some way to verify what said about them being different entities.. unless he elaborated that knee spring was simply part of sine wave!
Quote:



First, never feel bad about good constructive debate. It is a great vehicle for learning. Debate helps you realize that you are on the right path, or that you are wrong. Anyway, regardless of outcome, one grows from a good debate, as ideas can get a more full examination, which IMHO is required.
I think GM Kim's article will only show the inherent problem with semantics & interpetation from Korean to English.




well I never mentioned about that part in this discussion.. but I know Gen Choi said it, but I have never heard him say it was because he was loyal.. perhaps you have, I dont know! So I can only take it as I hear it!
Quote:


Thats right. I only offer it to show that it may not be a good link to what was left to us by the founder.




Well as you said in your last post, Patterns were the one part of TKD Gen Choi wanted unified & samey, and thats what he achieved (by your own admission).. the sw is part of all patterns, so why would it not be transfered along the line when the patterns were done in this way so well!! It doesnt make sense! Stuart




I am not sure what you mean here. He did of course have great results with the standardization of the Tuls, which includes the movement & SW. What I think the problem is, the evolution & exaggeration that has occurred & the fact that we no longer have the final arbitrater, so we are more open to interpetation. Which BTW is the problem with some critiques of SW, by those that didn't learn it direct from him, or fully understand it.

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#380192 - 02/03/08 12:24 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
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Yes Mr. Flynch is right. GM Choi still uses & emphasizes the hip twist. ITF-C has as well.

The context he adds does help. I would further add that critiques of SW as not being practical miss the point somewhat. SW is only 1 part of 6 factors that help increase power. Anyone who would use just about any formal move in an actual combat situation, would probably not fair well with regards to reaction, protection & counter. SW is just a theory that helps a student learn to use more of their body. How any of it translates into actual combat, really depends on the situation at hand. I think few of us would disagree that they would not use the 1st 2 moves of DoSan Tul as is, in real combat.

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#380193 - 02/03/08 12:36 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

This is why I find it such a remarkable accomplishment by the founder, where we can boast of a WCs, with students from all around the world, basically moving as if they all had one teacher, training in 1 school. That I think is unprecedented, AFAIK! That is why he didn't get into SD, HooSinSul & other aspects of his Art. There was not enough time & these areas had a sense of individuality that did not require, nor were they necessarily beneficial to have everyone do it one way.



I agree with your first point I think the standardization was amazing and the General was a true leader. Your second point about him not being able to get into the rest I have a harder time beleiving. I know his passion was the patterns but I wonder if that was what he knew I don't see the evidence of him being a a fighter or trainned in self defense. If I am misisng something please let me know I would appreciate more information on this aspect of his personnal training or the demostrations he personnally gave.




Ok, I think you missed the most important part of my 2nd point. I was not emphasizing that there was not ENUF TIME, but rather, SD or HooSinSul is very much an individual thing. There is no set way to do something. In the Tuls, there is!
For example, someone grabs your wrist. How do you respond? It depends on who grabs you, how they grab you & what else is going on. I am sure there are countless permutations that we could put together for you to get out of the situation. His mindset on SD was, learn as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements & apply them as the situation at hand requires.
Now I believe he was a MAist. He was also a leader. He was not a fighter, in the sense that he entered & won tournaments, was a street fighter or was forced to fight because of a particular career. Keep in mind, it did not appear that he saw action on any front during the war. He took fighters, with their help forged a new MMA, that was developed for the military for fighting purposes. He later, with the help of others, further developed this into an Art, where the DO was more important. He trained daily, BTW, but was not someone who I viewed as a fighter.

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#380194 - 02/03/08 12:52 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I hope it went well. Whens the wedding?
-----------------------------------------------------




I thougt it did, but I guess not based on this morning. Men are from Mars & women are from Venus. So no wedding & I am feeling like much time (years) has been wasted, altough I wouldn't change it. Then, when in the middle of typing this, I get a phone call, so maybe everything is good. WHO KNOWS! Especially when it comes to the opposite sex. I think that was God's only mistake, 2 sexes. What a headache, although it can be so, so good, when it is right. I guess its like the MAs, hard work & tenets.

Quote:

Exactly the point I made in that article all those years back!



C my reply above

Ps.
Quote:

(An interesting story of how he became General Choi's student but well skip that although it does lead credence to many things I have been told)



Feel free to put the details down




Ditto

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#380195 - 02/03/08 01:36 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

I am not sure what you mean here.



I mean, he was able to standardize the patterns by investing time in them so much, so why he was not able to standardize the sine wave, which is a major part of pattern motions doesnt make sense.. the old "didnt have the correct english terms" argument holds no water with me, as showing it is easy! Of course it wasnt standardized, because it didnt exsist (down/up/down) until Master Park left!

thanks for the article btw, even though it doesnt go into great detail on the SW/Hip twist thing, it has made me consider that perhaps GM Rhee had his own take on things.. still, all TKD AFAIC

Quote:

I would further add that critiques of SW as not being practical miss the point somewhat.



Personally, I think thats exactly the point.. one doesnt correspond with the other!

Quote:

I think few of us would disagree that they would not use the 1st 2 moves of DoSan Tul as is, in real combat.



I would.. i think these moves offer bruilliant anti-grabbing techniques that turn a grab into a wrist lock! Which, IMO and by the Generals own definition IS the whole point of patterns!

Quote:

Men are from Mars & women are from Venus.



Amen brother! = woman

Quote:

Then, when in the middle of typing this, I get a phone call, so maybe everything is good. WHO KNOWS!



well, if it all works out (fingers crossed).. dont forget my invite!

Stuart
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#380196 - 02/03/08 01:36 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I also have not forgotten about your e-mails, but I must 1st grease the wheels & am working on another project(s) with time constraints & trying to salvage my most important relationship.



No problem. I appreciate your efforts. thanks, Stuart




I almost forgot to address this most important point. I truly do try to help whomever I come into contact with. The DO that General Choi taught, emphasized this. When I started posting, I felt strongly about showing unity for the ITF as we have more in common, than that which seperates us. I still feel this. I also feel it for TKD in general & all of the MAs. It seems that when I encounter new people, gaps & differences are bridged, when we find something in common. Often, it is the MAs that is that bridge. This is what Ambassador Choi wanted. It is & remains my sincere pleasure to help in anyway I can. I have gained so much from forums such as this one. I have even learned better computer skills. (Thanks)
With all sincerity, if I can be of any help, I will always try to try my best. I have learned that much good is possible, if we try. I have seen the MAs do a lot of good. I remember some poking fun at a proposed GoodWill tour of the States by north Koreans in 2006. It didn't happen & some used that fact in a less than wholesome way. I was glad to see that it finally happened in 2007 & that it was apparently a big hit & has started other talks to do more of the same, with other venues, not limited to the MAs. I guess one could call that one step towards building a more peaceful world, which of course, is the goal of TKD.

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#380197 - 02/03/08 01:43 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I think few of us would disagree that they would not use the 1st 2 moves of DoSan Tul as is, in real combat.



I would.. i think these moves offer bruilliant anti-grabbing techniques that turn a grab into a wrist lock! Which, IMO and by the Generals own definition IS the whole point of patterns!




No, no! You are killing me! I mean the stated application in the text, ie left walking stance, high side block with the inner forearm, followed by a middle reverse punch!

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#380198 - 02/03/08 02:01 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I mean, he was able to standardize the patterns by investing time in them so much, so why he was not able to standardize the sine wave, which is a major part of pattern motions doesnt make sense.. the old "didnt have the correct english terms" argument holds no water with me, as showing it is easy! Of course it wasnt standardized, because it didnt exsist (down/up/down) until Master Park left!




You really are killing me!
You are making me crazy!

SW was standardized. It is just that SW & how it was performed changed or evolved over the years. Forget about if we agree the change was good, or what the motivation was or even if SW is needed. There was an up & down movement in the 60s. Forget about the terms, as that would confuse the issue. What is important is that he preached raising the hips. I think it was not accepted nor practiced by many, for reasons stated previously. When most of the Koreans were forced to leave him, SW became more pronounced & was named as such in the literature (1983). Prior to that, the only words that appeared in print, was knee spring. Now in the early 90s, we know that it was now taught was relax(or) down/up/down. Again, forget about why. However, rest assurred that in the WCs, they are all doing the Tuls the same way, for the most part, with the same SW.

So again, to emphasize my point, he did accomplish a great deal of standardization. His philosophy on HooSinSul (SD) was more learn the techniques & apply them as seen fit. Tuls on the other hand MUST be done his way. That was why IMHO little time was put forth in that area.


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#380199 - 02/03/08 02:08 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Quote:

Yes Mr. Flynch is right. GM Choi still uses & emphasizes the hip twist. ITF-C has as well.

The context he adds does help. I would further add that critiques of SW as not being practical miss the point somewhat. SW is only 1 part of 6 factors that help increase power. Anyone who would use just about any formal move in an actual combat situation, would probably not fair well with regards to reaction, protection & counter. SW is just a theory that helps a student learn to use more of their body. How any of it translates into actual combat, really depends on the situation at hand. I think few of us would disagree that they would not use the 1st 2 moves of DoSan Tul as is, in real combat.




I have heard people say that they feel like thy have more power with SW. I put some boards up and broke them. I have always been dropping down into the technique as I struck the boards. I am large so I have a fair amount of power no matter what I do. I was just utterly amazed at how much power I had with the rotation of the body caused by this hip twist concept. It was like an epiphany.

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#380200 - 02/03/08 02:16 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
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Quote:

Yes Mr. Flynch is right. GM Choi still uses & emphasizes the hip twist. ITF-C has as well.

The context he adds does help. I would further add that critiques of SW as not being practical miss the point somewhat. SW is only 1 part of 6 factors that help increase power. Anyone who would use just about any formal move in an actual combat situation, would probably not fair well with regards to reaction, protection & counter. SW is just a theory that helps a student learn to use more of their body. How any of it translates into actual combat, really depends on the situation at hand. I think few of us would disagree that they would not use the 1st 2 moves of DoSan Tul as is, in real combat.




There may be nothing wrong with SW in a system of training if it is the means to an end. The difficulty may have been the political overtones and General trying to get people who were clearly surpeior martial artists to relearn how to create power when they already had reached that end. It may just be a different path to producing the same results.

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#380201 - 02/03/08 02:38 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
flynch Offline
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Stuart I watch the bb grading video on u tube again and i like the way your students do the patternas

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#380202 - 02/03/08 05:47 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

You really are killing me!
You are making me crazy!



LOL.. you love your smileys now dont ya!

Quote:

SW was standardized. It is just that SW & how it was performed changed or evolved over the years.



thats what were discussing isnt it!

Quote:

What is important is that he preached raising the hips.



I think we have all agreed that point from the offset!

Quote:

Prior to that, the only words that appeared in print, was knee spring.



Now I get the difference of opinion. Pretty sure I should have got it many posts back.. but there ya go! maybe I did!!!
I was taught up/down aka sinewave, as a seperate entity to knee spring.. you were not.. hence why I discuss it being two sperate things and you do not! To you, they are linked into the sien wave, to me they are different

Quote:

However, rest assurred that in the WCs, they are all doing the Tuls the same way, for the most part, with the same SW.



I do.. its the losing of the "martial" side of the art!

Stuart
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#380203 - 02/03/08 05:49 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

I have heard people say that they feel like thy have more power with SW. I put some boards up and broke them. I have always been dropping down into the technique as I struck the boards. I am large so I have a fair amount of power no matter what I do. I was just utterly amazed at how much power I had with the rotation of the body caused by this hip twist concept. It was like an epiphany.




I too done similar tests when we were asked to remove hip twist altogethor and use the newer down/up/down sine wave. Speed aside.. my conclusions were the same as yours. Others disagree, but for me, I had to go with what was best for me.

Stuart
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#380204 - 02/03/08 05:50 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Stuart I watch the bb grading video on u tube again and i like the way your students do the patternas



Thanks. I dont believe gradings are the best examples of peoples TKD due to the pressure, so the fact you feel they are decent means a lot.

Cheers,

Stuart
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#380205 - 02/03/08 06:24 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>We have gone back & forth with this more than once LOL It usually turns into a rather esoteric debate,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes I know.. but I must continue to struggle against the dark side


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not the way I learnt it. I was specifically taught, knee spring to add power when stationary - whether the knee bend in the new/old sinewave is again, a different debate, but knee spring to me, is a seperate entity from sine wave.

Stuart

<<<

People conceptualize things in different manners based upon their frame of reference, how they were taught and by whom.

You of course have drawn your conclusions based upon this.

Hoever, interestingly enough, even though Master Unity and I had different instructors and spent little if any (???) time together in classes taught by General Choi, we both lived thru the evolution and both attended several courses with him, and althought our experience was seperate, and independant our observations and conclusions are virtualy identical... Such the power of the darkside:)

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#380206 - 02/03/08 07:48 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Such the power of the darkside:)




Siths
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#380207 - 02/03/08 08:46 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
michaelboik Offline
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Posts: 60
I'm glad I started this post. It has gone places I didn't expect it to go. I would have to ask too if the changes made to SW where made for changes sake or for purpose of improvement. Or was it changed at all but only explained clearer. I would have to disagree with Stuart and say that although not named as such, SW did exist in the sixties and early seventies. Now, while watching the tapes, not all the participants did the SW the same but the rising and lowering in the movements can be seen especially with Master Ra Young Chul and master Kim young Soo unlike the movements of Karate where the movement is level.
I have always said that Gen. Choi wanted to spread TKD first then come back later to refine the movements. Unfortunately, many instructors left the ITF before he could refine the movements while others didn't feel the need to refine. this is why you see so many on youtube doing patterns differently. This is unfortunate since the Patterns contain the movements that make up TKD so if you are not doing the Patterns correctly you are not doing TKD correctly.
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#380208 - 02/03/08 11:02 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
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Sir, I was wondering when you were going to weigh back in! Yes SW or some form of it, was there from early on. What changed was the terminology, the emphasis & then the actual motion. This does cause much confusion. I can tell you that I think the final change was due to politics. I can't prove it, but I am not the only one who feels this! It was done to damper the huge effect the loss of Master Park Jung Tae was to the ITF.

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#380209 - 02/03/08 11:18 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

People conceptualize things in different manners based upon their frame of reference, how they were taught and by whom.
You of course have drawn your conclusions based upon this.

Hoever, interestingly enough, even though Master Unity and I had different instructors and spent little if any (???) time together in classes taught by General Choi, we both lived thru the evolution and both attended several courses with him, and althought our experience was seperate, and independant our observations and conclusions are virtualy identical... Such the power of the darkside:)




Yes & that is one of my BIGgest pet peeves. There is so much trashing of SW on the interent & elsehwere. Now I dont't care 1 way or another, how one maximizes power. What does upset me, is the critique of something without the required knowldge of the how & why. I have often asked non ITF students, what is the basis for their TofP & how do they look to improve their power. Many just look at me with a blank stare. Sadly, the schools I visit rarely have any students displayin any power. Rather, the floor is filled with students just moving their arms & legs. Often they don't even put their foot in the right position to make a proper tool. I hope that they don't get hurt, or hurt themselves if a real SD situation comes up. Then I would also hope that they would at least get their money back for services not rendered. GM Sereff used to say, TKD works, you don't work!

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#380210 - 02/04/08 08:22 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
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FWIW as I have said before IMNSHO Sine Wave is just a term used by General Choi to describe the overall motion. One needs to get into the mechanics behind the description to fully understand what is going on.

Once that is done I find that the concept is not unique to General Choi. It can be seen in how a boxer flexes their knees, in Bruce Lee's books aboutthe 1 and 2 inch punch, and even ar ecent national Geographic Show "Fight Science" using MMA Fighters where they illustrate the concept of the Kinetic Chain or Kinetic Linking also alluded to in a previous extreme martial arts show.

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#380211 - 02/04/08 10:59 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

I would have to disagree with Stuart and say that although not named as such, SW did exist in the sixties and early seventies.



I didnt say that.. I said it did and dropping into techniques can be seen in those early videos!! I even said so in the sine wave article & book!!

Quote:

I have always said that Gen. Choi wanted to spread TKD first then come back later to refine the movements.



Im not sold on that though.. how much harder would it have been to show the dropping motion or SW whilst doing all those courses!! Theres refining and missing something out completely (the dowm/up/down version of the sien wave is what I refer to).




Stuart
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#380212 - 02/04/08 11:00 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

What changed was the terminology, the emphasis & then the actual motion.




So technically all of it then

Quote:

I can tell you that I think the final change was due to politics. I can't prove it, but I am not the only one who feels this! It was done to damper the huge effect the loss of Master Park Jung Tae was to the ITF.



No hes not... Im with him on that!


Stuart
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#380213 - 02/04/08 12:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

FWIW as I have said before IMNSHO Sine Wave is just a term used by General Choi to describe the overall motion. One needs to get into the mechanics behind the description to fully understand what is going on.
Once that is done I find that the concept is not unique to General Choi. It can be seen in how a boxer flexes their knees, in Bruce Lee's books aboutthe 1 and 2 inch punch, and even ar ecent national Geographic Show "Fight Science" using MMA Fighters where they illustrate the concept of the Kinetic Chain or Kinetic Linking also alluded to in a previous extreme martial arts show.




I couldn't agree more!

This is one of the reasons I started to use the term raising the hips. Forget about terminology. It confuses the issue. It is the movement. Now, the emphasis of the movement has changed & the motion has as well, over the years.

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#380214 - 02/04/08 12:36 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I have always said that Gen. Choi wanted to spread TKD first then come back later to refine the movements.



Im not sold on that though.. how much harder would it have been to show the dropping motion or SW whilst doing all those courses!! Theres refining and missing something out completely (the dowm/up/down version of the sien wave is what I refer to). Stuart




No I think that had more to do with the fact that there were basically Korean Karate students coming to the founder to get certified. At most, they had to learn the patterns. They for the most part were not interested in the movement & as such, either never learned it or never embraced it. Once he moved the ITF to Canada in 1972, the numbers coming to him dropped. There were others that lived outside of Korea, who backfilled the void, but the numbers were not there & those new ones, were not going back to their respective schools that they already established & now start teaching something different, as many looked at that as saying what was being taught previously was wrong. Not good for business, from these new Korean immigrants that had started schools that they & their families back home depended on for income. The movement did not take hold till the 80s, when most of the Koreans were gone & the natives of their respective Countries' NGBs ran them & all students had access to the 15 volume Encylopedia, seminars & IICs taught by the founder, eliminating the reluctant middlemen. JMHO

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#380215 - 02/04/08 12:37 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What changed was the terminology, the emphasis & then the actual motion.



So technically all of it then Stuart




Yes of course! I never said differently.

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#380216 - 02/04/08 02:18 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
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So sign wave is just down/up/down?

I have not been taught sign wave but thought it was down/up/down plus hip twist/hip chamber.

I was taught to chamber the hip and drop into it.What I later found out some call a double hip.The slight rise and dropping being virtualy natural as you chamber hips though you can add to it at the knees.
Then refining it all to work in fight time or as little time as possible.
I have been pressuming this is whatyou are all referring to as natural motion but its all getting confusing haha.

Oustide of TKD I have been shown how you can whip it in,which is basicaly where your body is slghtly ahead of the limb.
This to me is like the hip twist.Though there is more to it than just hips.
Or you can have the body behind the limb.
This to me seems like what the sign wave seems to be reffering to or what its trying to do,but too slowly and long winded.The body is not ahead of the limb its with the limb.
BUT I cant see how sign wave as its done in TKD can be used in real fight time nor seen anyone demonstrate it in a pattern then how to apply it,so it doesnt seem refined enough for me.
Of course I might be totaly missunderstanding sign wave but thats how I see it.

How much room there is or what angle your at can define how you can get power at that moment so there is room for lots of ideas on how to get power.
I did hear it said that sign wave is meant for two handed techniques where there was not a dominant power hand and hip twist for where there is.
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#380217 - 02/04/08 02:57 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

So sign wave is just down/up/down?




Basically I would say yes, but it is hard to define fully in a venue like this. But it is more like relax/up/down.

Quote:

I have not been taught sign wave but thought it was down/up/down plus hip twist/hip chamber.




Yes as well, but the hip is used, but no longer emphasized like it was in the early days.

Quote:

I was taught to chamber the hip and drop into it.What I later found out some call a double hip.The slight rise and dropping being virtualy natural as you chamber hips though you can add to it at the knees.
Oustide of TKD I have been shown how you can whip it in,which is basicaly where your body is slghtly ahead of the limb.




Yes, the hip muscle is larger, so larger areas must move 1st, or ahead of the limb, with everything coming into place at the end. I understand Gen Choi's son emphasizes this as well.

Quote:

BUT I cant see how sign wave as its done in TKD can be used in real fight time nor seen anyone demonstrate it in a pattern then how to apply it,so it doesnt seem refined enough for me. Of course I might be totaly missunderstanding sign wave but thats how I see it. How much room there is or what angle your at can define how you can get power at that moment so there is room for lots of ideas on how to get power.
I did hear it said that sign wave is meant for two handed techniques where there was not a dominant power hand and hip twist for where there is.




This is a problem for many who don't understand that SW is only 1 part of 6 factors that make up the THEORY of power. It is rare that all factors can ever be implemented in actual combat. I liken it to the factors of shooting a gun on a range or in target practice. It drills basics, like sight alignement, stance, grip, trigger squeeze & breathing. However, in a gunfight, it usually boils down to point & shoot.

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#380218 - 02/04/08 05:44 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

This is a problem for many who don't understand that SW is only 1 part of 6 factors that make up the THEORY of power.



I thought you said it was part of the training secrets, and not the T of P!!!!

Stuart
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#380219 - 02/04/08 08:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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I thought you said it was part of the training secrets, and not the T of P!!!! Stuart




Mr. Anslow, you better start reading the text, or you will go sit in the corner

No I think what was happening is there was too much going back & forth.

SW is in the TofP. It is utilized so one will use more of their body weight when performing the technique. SW also helps balance & speed. It is also cited in the training secret of TKD:
keep the legs & arms bent while the movement is in motion;
all movements must begin with a backward motion with very few exceptions;
8. "To create a SW during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly"

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#380220 - 02/04/08 11:20 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
michaelboik Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I would have to disagree with Stuart and say that although not named as such, SW did exist in the sixties and early seventies.



I didnt say that.. I said it did and dropping into techniques can be seen in those early videos!! I even said so in the sine wave article & book!!

Stuart




Sorry, sir. I misread your post.
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#380221 - 02/05/08 04:57 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I thought you said it was part of the training secrets, and not the T of P!!!! Stuart




Mr. Anslow, you better start reading the text, or you will go sit in the corner




The corner belongs to you me thinks.. see:
Taken from page 2 from YOUR post:
Quote:

Theory of Power:
1965 Text had 4 factors - reaction force, concentration, balance & breath control
1972 Text had 5 factors - with speed being added
1975 Text had 6 factors - with mass being added

SW was NEVER a part of the T of P. It is the way we increase MASS & SPEED, 2 factors of the TofP.






Quote:

SW is in the TofP. It is utilized so one will use more of their body weight when performing the technique. SW also helps balance & speed.



So.. 1) make your mind up 2) I stand by what i said previously LOL

Stuart
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#380222 - 02/05/08 04:58 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Sorry, sir. I misread your post.




No problemo... but please dont call me sir, we are all equal here (and in life actually)



Stuart
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#380223 - 02/05/08 07:30 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
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Quote:


No problemo... but please dont call me sir, we are all equal here (and in life actually)



Stuart




You can study TKD if you don't want people to call you sir...

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#380224 - 02/06/08 12:37 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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You got me there!

What I mean is that SW was never one of the factors, 6 now, that make up the TofP. Rather it is a part or sublevel of some factors.

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#380225 - 07/05/08 09:46 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
goldsworthy Offline
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Hi, I'm new to this Forum but I studied Tae Kwon Do in the 1970's and early 80's in Colorado, Mr. Ra Young Chul was my last instructor. We called this "Spring Style" movements, for what it's worth.

--Robert Goldsworthy

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#380226 - 07/05/08 11:36 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: goldsworthy]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Hi, I'm new to this Forum but I studied Tae Kwon Do in the 1970's and early 80's in Colorado, Mr. Ra Young Chul was my last instructor. We called this "Spring Style" movements, for what it's worth.--Robert Goldsworthy




Welcome!

Thats right & that would also jive with what they were teaching at the headquarters in Seoul south Korea before instructors were dispatched overseas.

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#380227 - 07/05/08 12:15 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
oldcoach Offline
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Huh...

Wish they'd had that SW term worked out when I was still a gup. I kept getting scolded for moving in an up-down (or down-up or whatever) motion when transitioning between techniques/steps.

"MUST NOT MOVE UP-DOWN! HEAD MUST BE LEVEL WHEN IN STANCE AND WHEN MOVING! LIKE THIS!" (WHACK!)

Now it's called Sine Wave? Huh...

I should go find that instructor and laugh in his face...hehehe

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#380228 - 07/05/08 03:10 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: oldcoach]
TKD_X Offline
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Quote:



"MUST NOT MOVE UP-DOWN! HEAD MUST BE LEVEL WHEN IN STANCE AND WHEN MOVING! LIKE THIS!" (WHACK!)






that's how it is at my dojang

how rare are dojangs that practice chang hon patterns with hip-twist motion rather than sine wave? every school that i have ever trained at did it with hiptwist and before i joined this forum and started reading the SW cnversations, in all honesty, i didn't know it existed.

when i first saw it i thought it was the funniest thing i'd ever seen.
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#380229 - 07/05/08 09:33 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
VDJ Offline
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The hip twist was never removed, it is part of the sine wave. Look at it closely and you will see that it is still there.

VDJ

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#380230 - 07/06/08 01:03 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDJ]
TKD_X Offline
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i never suggested it was removed. i was just inquiring about the percentage of schools that teach chang hon forms with ONLY horizontal movements ("keep head level" like my school) versus the percentage of schools that teach SW (regardless of how much horizontal movement they do). if one had to estimate what would you say? 10% and 90% respectively? less? more?
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#380231 - 07/06/08 09:51 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

i was just inquiring about the percentage of schools that teach chang hon forms with ONLY horizontal movements ("keep head level" like my school)




Do you do any other physical activity where you keep your "head level"?

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#380232 - 07/06/08 11:56 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
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QUOTE:
"how rare are dojangs that practice chang hon patterns with hip-twist motion rather than sine wave? every school that i have ever trained at did it with hiptwist and before i joined this forum and started reading the SW cnversations, in all honesty, i didn't know it existed."

QUOTE:
"i never suggested it was removed. i was just inquiring about the percentage of schools that teach chang hon forms with ONLY horizontal movements ("keep head level" like my school) versus the percentage of schools that teach SW (regardless of how much horizontal movement they do). if one had to estimate what would you say? 10% and 90% respectively? less? more?"


Your first post most certainly suggests that the hip twist is removed and replaced with SW, just in the way you phrase your post (whether it be intentional or not).And ITFUnity hits it exactly right, SW is a natural motion, when you walk or run does your head stay at the same level or does it go up and down? The premise to keep your head at a certain level when the rest of your body wants it to adjust in movement is just an unnatural act!

As far as your question regarding percentages, there is no way to know what percentage does it one way while the others do it another way. What I can say with certainty (as this has been my experiences) is this, A true Chang Hon practioner (no matter which ITF org they belong to)will use the SW as it is in the curriculum that the General devised.Though they may disagree which org is the "Real" org and what person is the "True" president, they still practice the style as the General taught it.

Though kukki stylist do not teach it as a "theory of power", it is there because it is the body's natural movement to do so, it is just not taught and exaggerated the way the ITF does. In all of my travels and schools I have visited, only ONE taught the "keep your head level" theory and it was a very uncomfortable feeling for me.

VDJ


Edited by VDJ (07/06/08 11:57 AM)

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#380233 - 07/06/08 03:14 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDJ]
TKD_X Offline
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i know that it is a natural movement. if it is there in our system, it isn't taught. maybe we have some slight up-down, but we are never told we need more, only less. i'm not trying to argue about the functionality of SW. i've never been taught to use an up-down motion, so it may just be what i'm used to. my question was just a little one that wasn't intended to bring up conversation about the pros and cons of SW. i was just curious about the prevalence of non-SW schools that teach chon-ji, dan-gun, etc. just curious.
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#380234 - 07/06/08 09:31 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
VDJ Offline
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I know that you weren't arguing its functionality nor was I arguing in favor of it, all I said was in response to your question.ITF teaches it as its theory of power and exaggerates it with down up down and hip twist. Our school, which is not ITF accepts the premise but no where near performs like an ITF school does (therefore by their standards probably are considered not doing it at all). There are plenty that teach the patterns and do not refer to SW.Can't really put a percentage to it, there are very few (that I have come across) that teach the very linear "don't raise your head above this plank" movement (which you implied you do at your school).

VDJ

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#380235 - 07/07/08 12:57 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDJ]
TKD_X Offline
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i see what you mean. and at my school it's not like you'll get in trouble for a little up and down. but, for instance if you are doing stepping punches in front stances and your head is going up more than say 3/4 of a foot, you'll get corrected with a "try to keep your head level". at most, we do the smallest, least exaggerated semblance of sine wave...sometimes
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#380236 - 07/07/08 10:24 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

i was just inquiring about the percentage of schools that teach chang hon forms with ONLY horizontal movements ("keep head level" like my school) versus the percentage of schools that teach SW (regardless of how much horizontal movement they do). if one had to estimate what would you say? 10% and 90% respectively? less? more?




This is almost an impossible question to answer. 1st one would have to define what TKD is, then what being a Chang Hon or ITF stylist is. There is a TKD festival going on now in SK. The host made a claim that more people do ITF then WTF. I have problems with the use of the terms, but think the ITF come no where near the WTF as far as raw numbers go. I wish I knew the source of his claim.
Be that as it may, there are just some Korean Karate guys that merely adapted the ChonJi forms or Chang Hon patterns. I can assure you that they almost always do them without SW. These former or current Kwan guys just used the ITF Tuls as they were the 1st Korean ones & they pay homage to great Korean patriots & significant events in Korean history.
Next we have to define SW. It was not always called that & it was never done to the extent it is today by many. It appeared in the 1960s in Seoul south Korea & was called knee spring. It was done in conjunction with the hip twist, as a natural motion. Over the years it was switched to SW (1980s) & the up motion was emphasized. Starting in the 1990s, going down 1st was emphasized.

I would answer your question like this:
My guess would be that most people who perform the Chang Hon patterns do so with some natural up down movement, as it is natural & would therefore IMHO require an un-natural movement to stop or repress it. I am not so sure that many still teach the karate like flat line movement, with the emphasis on keeping the head level. I may be wrong on this point & would like to hear otherwise.
The next thing I would add is that those who left the ITF over the years still do a variation of it. Those that have stayed or become members of the ITF today, all do it, regardless of which ITF or ITF like organization they belong to, as it is the signature of the founder. Now this group is a minority in the overall number of students who consider what they are doing as TKD. However, this group is the largest in the world that have a common syllabus.

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#380237 - 07/07/08 10:30 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

you'll get corrected with a "try to keep your head level".


Why?

I answered your question as best as I could. I also know you are not talking or debating the functionality of SW, but please answer this question Why?
If you were corrected, what would be the premise or reason why you would be incorrect? What is the purpose or benefit of keeping your head level?
Why is the most important question a student can ever ask!

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#380238 - 07/07/08 12:44 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

you'll get corrected with a "try to keep your head level".


Why?

I answered your question as best as I could. I also know you are not talking or debating the functionality of SW, but please answer this question Why?
If you were corrected, what would be the premise or reason why you would be incorrect? What is the purpose or benefit of keeping your head level?
Why is the most important question a student can ever ask!





Of course he can always be given the "Parent" response by his instructor:

"Because I said so !"

VDJ

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#380239 - 07/07/08 12:48 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
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it is a good question. i will not deny that. i would have to say that it is simply that we base the genertion of power while performing forms on horizontal motions. i have met martial artists who believe that SW builds rhythm and rhythm builds predictability. i'm not going to tell you i know the answer for sure because i don't. after nearly 12 years in 4 different schools that all didn't use today's SW, i never felt the need to question it because i didn't know SW existed. now i know the theory behind it. i'm not a big fan of it because i am used to head-level style and when i tried to apply it to my forms, it felt awkward and as though it didn't add anything.
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#380240 - 07/07/08 08:47 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
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TKD_X

forget about SW. I simply am asking if keeping your head level makes sense? I am not sure I know of any other physical activity that keeps their head levle while moving. To me it doesn't make sense. I would ask why that is the standard at your school. Keeping your head level is so un-natural & to me represses or takes away from fluid movement & the generation of power. I am very much aware of the critiques of SW, but do not want to confuse this question, which remains if we agree that keeping your head level is un-natural & so far does not seem to be in other physical activities, why would your MA do it?
I also do not think it is necessary to keep your head level while using hip twist, do you?

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#380241 - 07/07/08 09:13 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
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i think that asking if keeping the head level makes sense is like asking does moving up and down make sense. like i said, the need for me to question the absence of up-down motion hasn't arisen, because until relatively recently, i didn't know the SW motion existed. to those who incorporate SW, SW makes sense. to those who keep the head level, keeping the head level makes sense. had you never known that people used the head-level style, would you understand it? would it make sense? it's the same to me, having done without SW for a long time, i don't understand it. SW makes sense to you and head-level makes sense to me. however, i am going to look into it and find out why we keep our heads level instead of using SW.
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#380242 - 07/07/08 09:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
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out of curiosity, does anyone have a link to some pre-sine wave videos that show knee-spring? i think it would be interesting to compare the way i do my forms with pre-sine wave forms.
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#380243 - 07/07/08 10:08 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
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TKD_X

I did the chang hon tuls without SW when I 1st learned them in the early 70s. We did it flat line or head level & I was told to do it that way. Of course we did hip twist & I still do hip twist, but I no longer keep my head level.
Now this question has nothing to do with SW, so please do not interject it into the scenario. I think the SW of today is pretty much exagerated & misunderstood by even those that do it.
Now getting back to keeping your head level. Why? I watched clips of Wimbelton & in tennis they don't keep the head level. I still have not had 1 person give an example of a physical activity or sport that keeps their head level. To me & from how I remember being taught, it was awkward & counter-productive to adding power. Very un-natural. In fact, thinking about it & doing it, it is obvious to me that it hurts power.
So if you think it is un-natural & can't find another example of an acitivity that uses it, why do you? Surely the effort to keep the body level, holds one back, doesn't it?
I also am not aware of any online videos that show it. You can google TKD pioneers. In the original ITF training films, they use knee spring & not the exagerated SW of today. Many of those original masters will not agree with what is being done today. However you will see them rise & lowering into the technique, using the hips, not staying flat or with the head level.

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#380244 - 07/07/08 10:32 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
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TKD-X,

What ITFUnity said. I think you have been missing the point of his question. Forget TKD or martial arts in general. He is asking you to name ONE activity that you do (or anybody for that matter) that keeps their head at a level plain. You won't find it. The up down motion is just a natural event. You do it when you walk, run what ever. Lets put it this way, after you finish your next class and you leave the dojang, walk around your house with your head level, chances are your Mom will think you were hurt in class because you will be walking funny and un-natural. Then put the question to your instructor.

VDJ

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#380245 - 07/07/08 11:25 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDJ]
BulldogTKD Offline
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If you were tought to keep you head perfectly level when you do your forms you were tought incorectly. You will have a slight up and down movement. If you watch someone walk they have a slight up and down movement. Not a huge up then down movement, AKA Sine Wave. When you SW you are in a constant state of changing your center dramaticaly. In Self Defense, how can this be benificial? When you block something how is moving up then down benificial. Oh what if a block is not a block but a strike or a lock? How does the SW help?

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#380246 - 07/08/08 02:11 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: BulldogTKD]
TKD_X Offline
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ITFUnity and VDJ,

i understand that head level is not a natural thing. i understand that other sports/activities do not use it. i won't even say that i can do TKD with my head "perfectly" level. any movement that i have in my forms is very subtle and i wouldn't call it SW by a long shot. i would like to clarify the head-level thing with my instructor. perhaps i am wrong and head-level is not the end-all and be-all,

BulldogTKD,

while i wish to stray from pro/con discussion, i agree SW would have little application in SD situations. if there is one i would be interested to hear it.
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#380247 - 07/08/08 11:40 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
TKD_X Offline
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some videos that came up when i typed in "tae kwon do pioneers"

from a long time ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNQklLm507U&feature=related

vs. today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLFT4Aq8vM0

my system performs it almost identically to the first video. as i watch i wonder if i over-exaggerated the die hard head-levelness of my school.
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#380248 - 07/09/08 10:49 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: BulldogTKD]
EarlWeiss Offline
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My .02. When I hosted Nam Tae Hi, he was not happy with those of us doing SW and preferred my guests who were progeny of Han Cha Kyon who were flat line. So, while one cannot establish percentages, if you are not doing SW you most likely have strong roots to the early kwans whose instructors were recruited by General Choi, but who never updated their technique to conform with Gneral Chois' methodology which in the early days was referred to as spring style and later sine wave. Even the early books refer to flexing the knees. General Choi mentions that the need to recruit and dispatch instructors in the early days limited his time with instructors and superseded the need to conform everyone's technique.

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#380249 - 07/09/08 10:51 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Second .02. The flat wave or level headed method is characteristic of the "Rooted" theory. Wasn't it Funakoshi whjo stood on his roof in a Typhoon to demonstrate this? A contrary theory of TKD is to use the body to make power even if not rooted, such as during flying techniques.

I can see some advantage to being level and rooted on uneven terrain.

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#380250 - 07/09/08 10:55 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
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I think the SW of today is pretty much exagerated & misunderstood by even those that do it.


Perhaps it is exagerated. How nmany other techniques are exagerated with huge chambers and retractions? Perhaps all with good reason:)

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#380251 - 07/09/08 12:10 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
Andymcc Offline
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Quote:


Keeping your head level is so un-natural & to me represses or takes away from fluid movement & the generation of power.




While I would agree with you that working to keep your head level would be an unnatural movement (or lack of movement) in most cases, I can not agree that it takes away from the generation of power, exclusively. It would during downward blocks or strikes where the up and down body motion would add force and acceleration. But it would not be likely to detract from most forward motions, be they kicks, punches, blocks, etc.

I think both sides of this debate are taking it a bit too far at times. Sine wave, flat line, whatever... just as we debate within the art of TKD, other arts generate equal power through their own means and approaches. There is more than one way to reach the finish line. It's hard to sell people on why one is better. It's just about how somebody has taught you. When it comes down to it, TDK-X is not going to be any less dangerous in a fighting or sparring situaiton simply because he didn't learn sinewave.
Just my .02 !


Edited by Andymcc (07/09/08 12:11 PM)

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#380252 - 07/09/08 07:28 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
TKD_X Offline
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Quote:

My .02. When I hosted Nam Tae Hi, he was not happy with those of us doing SW and preferred my guests who were progeny of Han Cha Kyon who were flat line. So, while one cannot establish percentages, if you are not doing SW you most likely have strong roots to the early kwans whose instructors were recruited by General Choi, but who never updated their technique to conform with Gneral Chois' methodology which in the early days was referred to as spring style and later sine wave. Even the early books refer to flexing the knees. General Choi mentions that the need to recruit and dispatch instructors in the early days limited his time with instructors and superseded the need to conform everyone's technique.




thanks guys for the less sharp replies, which i appreciate as much as the sharp ones . to address the roots of our system, we practice han moo kwan style. the founder of our federation was taught be Kyo Yoon Lee. i believe the "official" han moo kwan now follows the kukkiwon curriculum. before the foundation of our federation, our president's school was with the ATA while it still practiced the chang hon tuls/hyungs/whateveryouwannacallem. if i ever get a chance to sit down and talk to GM i'll ask him about our system's origins. He also has a 9th dan under the kukkiwon. there is a whole range of influences that would probably explain why we do not do SW.
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#380253 - 07/10/08 09:35 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: Andymcc]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:


Keeping your head level is so un-natural & to me represses or takes away from fluid movement & the generation of power.




But it would not be likely to detract from most forward motions, be they kicks, punches, blocks, etc.




Okay, so if you kept your head level, say with lowering the ceiling to be even with your head in its stance, then moved your body to do any of these techniques you mention, you feel you would not lose power?
Please elelaborate as to what techniques these would be. I could not think of 1 technique, nor 1 physical activity that this makes sense with. Please show me what I am missing or not understanding.
Thanks

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#380254 - 07/10/08 10:03 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
Andymcc Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Rochester NY, USA
A straight punch... a mid-block... a turning kick to name a few.
I don't do it, I grew up with sine wave. But in many motions like these, power contributors can include hip twisting, chambering, acceleration, countermovement, etc. An up down motion is moot.
Maintaining the same head level in movements like these would not necessarily reduce power in my opinion. It's not the way I train, but I just can't go ahead and say doing it this way would reduce power, since there are so many factors that generate power, both in the individual person and in the movement.

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#380255 - 07/10/08 05:43 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: Andymcc]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

A straight punch... a mid-block... a turning kick to name a few.
I don't do it, I grew up with sine wave. But in many motions like these, power contributors can include hip twisting, chambering, acceleration, countermovement, etc. An up down motion is moot.
Maintaining the same head level in movements like these would not necessarily reduce power in my opinion. It's not the way I train, but I just can't go ahead and say doing it this way would reduce power, since there are so many factors that generate power, both in the individual person and in the movement.




I think you miss my point. let me try to be clearer. I was 1st exposed to TKD using flat line or keep your head level. I then met the founder & trained with SW. I thought it was funny & a waste of time. I no longer feel that way, obviously 20+ years later. However I am not talking which is better.
I am simply trying to see if there are those that actually feel flat line or keeping your head level is not detremental to power. I think you may not follow me. I am simply talking about making a concentrated effort to keep your head level, like it would hit the ceiling. I do not think anyone really moves like that. I think most in the MAs & all other physical activities do have a natural up & down movement, just like walking.

I am not trying to tie this into SW, as in this case I am merely talking a natural, slight movement of the knee, not SW as is done in the ITF.

So if you stick by your above statement, thinking you would not loss power if you were confined by a ceiling & not wanted to bump your head by staying completely level, then I give up. I think most would say there is a natural increase or decrease in height & that trying to suppress that would hurt your power potential.

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#380256 - 07/10/08 09:20 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
Andymcc Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Rochester NY, USA
Well, I agree with you that nobody moves naturally as if they were stiffly moving without trying to bump their head on a ceiling. If a person were to move with such rigidity, surely they would have a loss of power, but not so much due to the flat line as to the stiffness with which you describe this movement, in this ceiling analogy.
I didn't see the flat line movement described that way by those were are practicing it. If they did, I'll defer to them to respond.
I just saw them say move trying to keep your head level. I can only imagine that this is said to keep a level plane, but I cant imagine it is done with ridigity and stiffness to the point you describe in the ceiling analogy.
It's the same as poorly performed sinewave motion. Incorrect practice of SW could theoretically also lead to loss of power... or if nothing else, to not maximizing power.
I will defer to those practicing that way to take it further than I have, for I am not schooled in that manner. However I simply suggest that flat line movement, sinewave, is not going to make or break power on some TKD movements, as the movements do not exclusively derive their power from that motion to begin with.

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