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#380166 - 02/02/08 02:16 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

will drop the arguement of whether or not knee spring was the pre-cursor of SW.



Good.. cos its not Stuart




It is clear to me, that it is/was. Why I am dropping it, is that it is confusing the arguement. Raising the body to increase mass & speed, was used from the 1960s. It was just not accepted &/or adopted by all/many. This arguement is 1 of semantics. The Koreans wanted to raise the hips, in addition to twist the hips. I do not get bogged down by what they call it, as they spoke a different & the & I think I have a good guess why. However, this is not the point. SW is utilized in the spot or stepping. It always was for me, when I started learning it in the mid 80s. You never learned it that way. No problem. However, in this aspect, since you don't see it that way, I am only respectfully suggesting that you are not accepting the way it was taught by the ITF.

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#380167 - 02/02/08 02:24 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

In fact, if you watch the evolution of the TKD TofP, you see it went from 4 factors to 5, then to the present 6 factors.



Well i know sine-wave was tacked on later.. funnily enough once it chnaged from up/down to down or relax/up down!!! What was the 5th introduction (I cant be bother looking it up right now) Stuart




Theory of Power:
1965 Text had 4 factors - reaction force, concentration, balance & breath control
1972 Text had 5 factors - with speed being added
1975 Text had 6 factors - with mass being added

SW was NEVER a part of the T of P. It is the way we increase MASS & SPEED, 2 factors of the TofP.

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#380168 - 02/02/08 02:34 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

What is more important is that you may have been taught differently knee spring/SW.



No, I wasnt taught differently.. I was taught they were different.. there is a difference there
Quote:

Knee spring is an important & often necessary element to creating SW.



Again.. bending your knee is not simply knee spring! But, as you outline in your last post, to you they are one & the same.. so Il agree and disagree at the same time




This just highlights the fact that we are not understanding each other, as we have a different basis for our arguements. To me, it is clear from my research, that a raising of the hip movement was used from early on. It was not widely accepted or even learned. The terms evolved as the founder realized there were better words that would relay what he wanted in Korean to English. This is complicated by the fact, that the specific way they were moving changed as well.

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#380169 - 02/02/08 02:38 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

In our system, SW is used in all movements, with the exception of a movement utilizing a connecting motion.



Another thing I dont agree with - what about horizontal and upwar techniques... and kicks?




Sorry, you are right. I miss spoke(wrote). I was confusing elements of the training secret with the TofP. Lets keep the kicks out of this, as that would get really confusing. However, the upward punch in Hwarang has stationary SW in it, as does the horizontal punch in PoEun.

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#380170 - 02/02/08 02:49 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

What SW is, from a simple standpoint, is the attempt to use more of your body mass, which will hopefully increase the power of your technique.



ITF-V research said it was meant to increase speed! Mass does not change, it is constant.. mass + speed = power... dropping into techniques has the same effect!

Quote:

SW is used in both stationary & stepping movements. That is plain & simple.



Obviously not.. hence this discussion!




Sorry, SW is to increase mass & speed up the technique. Reference the TofP. (Ref pgs 29-37 of the 15 vols)

Please refer to vols 3, 6 & 8. Other exmaples appear, but it is plain to see that SW is most definately utilized with both stepping & stationary movements. Also see pgs 416 & 417 of the condensed book (2004 ed).

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#380171 - 02/02/08 02:53 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

What is different, is how the wave is produced, with the hopes of increasing mass



But funnily enough they only demonstrate it one way.. so how can that be so!
Quote:

Now if one is in a stance & executes a technique in spot, without stepping (stationary), one will utilize the knee spring.



This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.
Quote:

How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.



As I said above, it can only be used in forward facing stances as it locks the back knee/leg straigh to increease drive/power forward!
Quote:

SW is just the raising of the body in order to use more of one's body when performing a technique.



I know.. thats what Ive been saying!!!!!!




I think that you are not following the tenet of the training secret that relates to SW. In order to create a SW, you must utilize the knee spring properly.

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#380172 - 02/02/08 03:12 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

(60s-80s). Then the drastic change for some was the emphasis now placed on the downward movement prior to the raise.



If a change is so drastic.. surely it should be given a new name!!
Quote:

I was never taught in the 80s to go down before I went up, by the founder, Master Park & the other top world masters of the ITF at the time. In fact, Master Park used to say, when you get into the elevator (lift) & want to go from the 1st floor to the 5th, you press floor #5, you don't press B for basement, then go down to the basement, then press 5 to go up again



Well.. you have just proved my point. Master Park was the top technical man in the ITF right.. and strangly enough, after he left the ITF this drastic change occured!!
Quote:

So call it semantics, terminlogy or whatever, but knee spring was always a part of SW, since SW terminology was used. Knee spring also was in use, prior to the term SW being used.



No.. bending the knee was... not knee spring! By calling a simple knee flexion "knee spring" you are simply confusing things.
Do you know what karate use horizontal wave? As it ensures constant practice of hip twist.. nhence why they are so good at it. I dont believe Gen Choi realised this, but he found another way.. the original sine wave. However, if stationary, rising and dropping is to slow to be effective.. hence knee spring which is executed at the same time (well split second before - during the build fast build up) as the tecnique. In fact knee spring hardly rises the body at all, unlike sine wave, as the knee bends but the heel rasies up and compensates. The final completion of knee spring is that it locks straight to accentuate fowrad motion akin to moving forward in walking stance.. without doing so!
In your examples the knee is straight until the send of the sine wave.. there is no spring (the locking straight motion) it simply bends to help the movement. I stand my ground.. they are not the same thing.. they are different entities! Stuart




You Sir are wearing me out! I have aged hours in making these replies. You seem to be hung up on the evolution of SW or raising the hip to increase mass & speed. I don't understand what you mean by knee spring. There are various ways that we raise our hips to increase mass/speed. How we do that, depends on where we are, what we want to do & where we are going to do it. You don't seem to follow me on this Now the change did not need a new name, as it was not sold as a change, but rather a correction of the mistakes taught by the former Chairman. Don't mix up terminology with the volution of the SW.

I give up for now as we are & need to

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#380173 - 02/02/08 06:48 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Stuart A >>>This is not knee spring, but simply dropping into the technique after raising up.. sine wave (original perhaps - as theres no pre-dropping motion) but not knee spring .. knee spring locks the back leg straight.. hence why it cant be used in L stance etc.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How that knee spring is used, depends on the stance.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As I said above, it can only be used in forward facing stances as it locks the back knee/leg straigh to increease drive/power forward!
<<<<

These staetemnts are incorrect. The rear leg knee does not have to be locked fr knee spring or sine wave, nor is it restricted to the stances stated.

I would like to know where this misinformation originated?

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#380174 - 02/02/08 06:51 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now at some time, they (ITF Pioneers) moved to the natural movement & by the late 60s were calling it knee spring.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


really? Wheres the evidence of this? Personally, I think its what they eventually termed sine wave.. hence why when the newer version came out, the pioneers reverted back to calling it "Natural Motion" Stuart
<<<

FWIW in the USA we were calling it "Spring Style in the 1970's, this was around the time of the World Champs in 1974, and we were still affiliated with Han Cha Kyo.

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#380175 - 02/02/08 09:29 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Geez.. you guys always double team me
Quote:

FWIW in the USA we were calling it "Spring Style in the 1970's, this was around the time of the World Champs in 1974, and we were still affiliated with Han Cha Kyo.



Thnaks for the info Earl.. thats interesting and personally i find that fine and acceptable.. its not "knee spring" and could be something different, hence why I find it agreeable. cheers.

------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

Yes I know & that is the problem. How you were taught is not the ITF way.



How do you figure that considering my linage goes via GM Rhee!!

Quote:

I am not sure how you define knee spring.



I described it in one of the recent posts! I dont disagree that flexing the knee isnt a part of the newer sine wave, just that its not the same thing as I was taught what was termed "knee spring"

Quote:

Geez, the evidence for this is all over the place. Interview of Kim Yong Soo, the Chief Instructor for the ITF in Korea in the late 60s.



I dont have the interview and have never read it.. though I'd be interested in reading it of course.

Quote:

He said many, including himself, were resistant to the new way, as old habits were hard to break.



Horizontal to (original) sine wave was what he may have been alluding to!! After all, the "relax/down" wasnt even mentioned back then!

Quote:

SW was NEVER a part of the T of P. It is the way we increase MASS & SPEED, 2 factors of the TofP.



Sorry, I meant the training secrets thing, not T of P

Quote:

This just highlights the fact that we are not understanding each other, as we have a different basis for our arguements. To me, it is clear from my research, that a raising of the hip movement was used from early on.



I havnt once disagreed with this!!! But, if raising the knee, it straightens, not bends.. hence where the the knee spring back to

Quote:

Sorry, SW is to increase mass & speed up the technique. Reference the TofP. (Ref pgs 29-37 of the 15 vols)



Again, mass is a constant it doesnt increase.. power increases when mass is accelerated, hence ITF-V claiming the sine wave increases speed as its main result.

Quote:

You seem to be hung up on the evolution of SW or raising the hip to increase mass & speed.



well you know that already.. you know I dont agree the new version was implimeneted to benefit TKD.. which is my main issue with it.. its not SW I disagree with, just the new version and the reasons why it was put into force.

Quote:

I would like to know where this misinformation originated?



From the way my instructor taught knee spring, which was taught to him by his... etc. etc. end at GM Rhee! But its a mute point if we are refering to different things.. yours a spart of a motion, mine "as" the motion.

Stuart

ps. I should point out to anyone reading this that myself and ITFunity do actually get along quite well
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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