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#380246 - 07/08/08 02:11 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: BulldogTKD]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
ITFUnity and VDJ,

i understand that head level is not a natural thing. i understand that other sports/activities do not use it. i won't even say that i can do TKD with my head "perfectly" level. any movement that i have in my forms is very subtle and i wouldn't call it SW by a long shot. i would like to clarify the head-level thing with my instructor. perhaps i am wrong and head-level is not the end-all and be-all,

BulldogTKD,

while i wish to stray from pro/con discussion, i agree SW would have little application in SD situations. if there is one i would be interested to hear it.
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#380247 - 07/08/08 11:40 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
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Loc: HERE
some videos that came up when i typed in "tae kwon do pioneers"

from a long time ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNQklLm507U&feature=related

vs. today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLFT4Aq8vM0

my system performs it almost identically to the first video. as i watch i wonder if i over-exaggerated the die hard head-levelness of my school.
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#380248 - 07/09/08 10:49 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: BulldogTKD]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
My .02. When I hosted Nam Tae Hi, he was not happy with those of us doing SW and preferred my guests who were progeny of Han Cha Kyon who were flat line. So, while one cannot establish percentages, if you are not doing SW you most likely have strong roots to the early kwans whose instructors were recruited by General Choi, but who never updated their technique to conform with Gneral Chois' methodology which in the early days was referred to as spring style and later sine wave. Even the early books refer to flexing the knees. General Choi mentions that the need to recruit and dispatch instructors in the early days limited his time with instructors and superseded the need to conform everyone's technique.

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#380249 - 07/09/08 10:51 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Second .02. The flat wave or level headed method is characteristic of the "Rooted" theory. Wasn't it Funakoshi whjo stood on his roof in a Typhoon to demonstrate this? A contrary theory of TKD is to use the body to make power even if not rooted, such as during flying techniques.

I can see some advantage to being level and rooted on uneven terrain.

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#380250 - 07/09/08 10:55 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I think the SW of today is pretty much exagerated & misunderstood by even those that do it.


Perhaps it is exagerated. How nmany other techniques are exagerated with huge chambers and retractions? Perhaps all with good reason:)

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#380251 - 07/09/08 12:10 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
Andymcc Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Rochester NY, USA
Quote:


Keeping your head level is so un-natural & to me represses or takes away from fluid movement & the generation of power.




While I would agree with you that working to keep your head level would be an unnatural movement (or lack of movement) in most cases, I can not agree that it takes away from the generation of power, exclusively. It would during downward blocks or strikes where the up and down body motion would add force and acceleration. But it would not be likely to detract from most forward motions, be they kicks, punches, blocks, etc.

I think both sides of this debate are taking it a bit too far at times. Sine wave, flat line, whatever... just as we debate within the art of TKD, other arts generate equal power through their own means and approaches. There is more than one way to reach the finish line. It's hard to sell people on why one is better. It's just about how somebody has taught you. When it comes down to it, TDK-X is not going to be any less dangerous in a fighting or sparring situaiton simply because he didn't learn sinewave.
Just my .02 !


Edited by Andymcc (07/09/08 12:11 PM)

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#380252 - 07/09/08 07:28 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

My .02. When I hosted Nam Tae Hi, he was not happy with those of us doing SW and preferred my guests who were progeny of Han Cha Kyon who were flat line. So, while one cannot establish percentages, if you are not doing SW you most likely have strong roots to the early kwans whose instructors were recruited by General Choi, but who never updated their technique to conform with Gneral Chois' methodology which in the early days was referred to as spring style and later sine wave. Even the early books refer to flexing the knees. General Choi mentions that the need to recruit and dispatch instructors in the early days limited his time with instructors and superseded the need to conform everyone's technique.




thanks guys for the less sharp replies, which i appreciate as much as the sharp ones . to address the roots of our system, we practice han moo kwan style. the founder of our federation was taught be Kyo Yoon Lee. i believe the "official" han moo kwan now follows the kukkiwon curriculum. before the foundation of our federation, our president's school was with the ATA while it still practiced the chang hon tuls/hyungs/whateveryouwannacallem. if i ever get a chance to sit down and talk to GM i'll ask him about our system's origins. He also has a 9th dan under the kukkiwon. there is a whole range of influences that would probably explain why we do not do SW.
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#380253 - 07/10/08 09:35 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: Andymcc]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:


Keeping your head level is so un-natural & to me represses or takes away from fluid movement & the generation of power.




But it would not be likely to detract from most forward motions, be they kicks, punches, blocks, etc.




Okay, so if you kept your head level, say with lowering the ceiling to be even with your head in its stance, then moved your body to do any of these techniques you mention, you feel you would not lose power?
Please elelaborate as to what techniques these would be. I could not think of 1 technique, nor 1 physical activity that this makes sense with. Please show me what I am missing or not understanding.
Thanks

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#380254 - 07/10/08 10:03 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
Andymcc Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Rochester NY, USA
A straight punch... a mid-block... a turning kick to name a few.
I don't do it, I grew up with sine wave. But in many motions like these, power contributors can include hip twisting, chambering, acceleration, countermovement, etc. An up down motion is moot.
Maintaining the same head level in movements like these would not necessarily reduce power in my opinion. It's not the way I train, but I just can't go ahead and say doing it this way would reduce power, since there are so many factors that generate power, both in the individual person and in the movement.

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#380255 - 07/10/08 05:43 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: Andymcc]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

A straight punch... a mid-block... a turning kick to name a few.
I don't do it, I grew up with sine wave. But in many motions like these, power contributors can include hip twisting, chambering, acceleration, countermovement, etc. An up down motion is moot.
Maintaining the same head level in movements like these would not necessarily reduce power in my opinion. It's not the way I train, but I just can't go ahead and say doing it this way would reduce power, since there are so many factors that generate power, both in the individual person and in the movement.




I think you miss my point. let me try to be clearer. I was 1st exposed to TKD using flat line or keep your head level. I then met the founder & trained with SW. I thought it was funny & a waste of time. I no longer feel that way, obviously 20+ years later. However I am not talking which is better.
I am simply trying to see if there are those that actually feel flat line or keeping your head level is not detremental to power. I think you may not follow me. I am simply talking about making a concentrated effort to keep your head level, like it would hit the ceiling. I do not think anyone really moves like that. I think most in the MAs & all other physical activities do have a natural up & down movement, just like walking.

I am not trying to tie this into SW, as in this case I am merely talking a natural, slight movement of the knee, not SW as is done in the ITF.

So if you stick by your above statement, thinking you would not loss power if you were confined by a ceiling & not wanted to bump your head by staying completely level, then I give up. I think most would say there is a natural increase or decrease in height & that trying to suppress that would hurt your power potential.

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