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#380236 - 07/07/08 10:24 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

i was just inquiring about the percentage of schools that teach chang hon forms with ONLY horizontal movements ("keep head level" like my school) versus the percentage of schools that teach SW (regardless of how much horizontal movement they do). if one had to estimate what would you say? 10% and 90% respectively? less? more?




This is almost an impossible question to answer. 1st one would have to define what TKD is, then what being a Chang Hon or ITF stylist is. There is a TKD festival going on now in SK. The host made a claim that more people do ITF then WTF. I have problems with the use of the terms, but think the ITF come no where near the WTF as far as raw numbers go. I wish I knew the source of his claim.
Be that as it may, there are just some Korean Karate guys that merely adapted the ChonJi forms or Chang Hon patterns. I can assure you that they almost always do them without SW. These former or current Kwan guys just used the ITF Tuls as they were the 1st Korean ones & they pay homage to great Korean patriots & significant events in Korean history.
Next we have to define SW. It was not always called that & it was never done to the extent it is today by many. It appeared in the 1960s in Seoul south Korea & was called knee spring. It was done in conjunction with the hip twist, as a natural motion. Over the years it was switched to SW (1980s) & the up motion was emphasized. Starting in the 1990s, going down 1st was emphasized.

I would answer your question like this:
My guess would be that most people who perform the Chang Hon patterns do so with some natural up down movement, as it is natural & would therefore IMHO require an un-natural movement to stop or repress it. I am not so sure that many still teach the karate like flat line movement, with the emphasis on keeping the head level. I may be wrong on this point & would like to hear otherwise.
The next thing I would add is that those who left the ITF over the years still do a variation of it. Those that have stayed or become members of the ITF today, all do it, regardless of which ITF or ITF like organization they belong to, as it is the signature of the founder. Now this group is a minority in the overall number of students who consider what they are doing as TKD. However, this group is the largest in the world that have a common syllabus.

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#380237 - 07/07/08 10:30 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

you'll get corrected with a "try to keep your head level".


Why?

I answered your question as best as I could. I also know you are not talking or debating the functionality of SW, but please answer this question Why?
If you were corrected, what would be the premise or reason why you would be incorrect? What is the purpose or benefit of keeping your head level?
Why is the most important question a student can ever ask!

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#380238 - 07/07/08 12:44 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Quote:

you'll get corrected with a "try to keep your head level".


Why?

I answered your question as best as I could. I also know you are not talking or debating the functionality of SW, but please answer this question Why?
If you were corrected, what would be the premise or reason why you would be incorrect? What is the purpose or benefit of keeping your head level?
Why is the most important question a student can ever ask!





Of course he can always be given the "Parent" response by his instructor:

"Because I said so !"

VDJ

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#380239 - 07/07/08 12:48 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
it is a good question. i will not deny that. i would have to say that it is simply that we base the genertion of power while performing forms on horizontal motions. i have met martial artists who believe that SW builds rhythm and rhythm builds predictability. i'm not going to tell you i know the answer for sure because i don't. after nearly 12 years in 4 different schools that all didn't use today's SW, i never felt the need to question it because i didn't know SW existed. now i know the theory behind it. i'm not a big fan of it because i am used to head-level style and when i tried to apply it to my forms, it felt awkward and as though it didn't add anything.
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#380240 - 07/07/08 08:47 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
TKD_X

forget about SW. I simply am asking if keeping your head level makes sense? I am not sure I know of any other physical activity that keeps their head levle while moving. To me it doesn't make sense. I would ask why that is the standard at your school. Keeping your head level is so un-natural & to me represses or takes away from fluid movement & the generation of power. I am very much aware of the critiques of SW, but do not want to confuse this question, which remains if we agree that keeping your head level is un-natural & so far does not seem to be in other physical activities, why would your MA do it?
I also do not think it is necessary to keep your head level while using hip twist, do you?

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#380241 - 07/07/08 09:13 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
i think that asking if keeping the head level makes sense is like asking does moving up and down make sense. like i said, the need for me to question the absence of up-down motion hasn't arisen, because until relatively recently, i didn't know the SW motion existed. to those who incorporate SW, SW makes sense. to those who keep the head level, keeping the head level makes sense. had you never known that people used the head-level style, would you understand it? would it make sense? it's the same to me, having done without SW for a long time, i don't understand it. SW makes sense to you and head-level makes sense to me. however, i am going to look into it and find out why we keep our heads level instead of using SW.
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#380242 - 07/07/08 09:21 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
out of curiosity, does anyone have a link to some pre-sine wave videos that show knee-spring? i think it would be interesting to compare the way i do my forms with pre-sine wave forms.
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#380243 - 07/07/08 10:08 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
TKD_X

I did the chang hon tuls without SW when I 1st learned them in the early 70s. We did it flat line or head level & I was told to do it that way. Of course we did hip twist & I still do hip twist, but I no longer keep my head level.
Now this question has nothing to do with SW, so please do not interject it into the scenario. I think the SW of today is pretty much exagerated & misunderstood by even those that do it.
Now getting back to keeping your head level. Why? I watched clips of Wimbelton & in tennis they don't keep the head level. I still have not had 1 person give an example of a physical activity or sport that keeps their head level. To me & from how I remember being taught, it was awkward & counter-productive to adding power. Very un-natural. In fact, thinking about it & doing it, it is obvious to me that it hurts power.
So if you think it is un-natural & can't find another example of an acitivity that uses it, why do you? Surely the effort to keep the body level, holds one back, doesn't it?
I also am not aware of any online videos that show it. You can google TKD pioneers. In the original ITF training films, they use knee spring & not the exagerated SW of today. Many of those original masters will not agree with what is being done today. However you will see them rise & lowering into the technique, using the hips, not staying flat or with the head level.

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#380244 - 07/07/08 10:32 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
TKD-X,

What ITFUnity said. I think you have been missing the point of his question. Forget TKD or martial arts in general. He is asking you to name ONE activity that you do (or anybody for that matter) that keeps their head at a level plain. You won't find it. The up down motion is just a natural event. You do it when you walk, run what ever. Lets put it this way, after you finish your next class and you leave the dojang, walk around your house with your head level, chances are your Mom will think you were hurt in class because you will be walking funny and un-natural. Then put the question to your instructor.

VDJ

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#380245 - 07/07/08 11:25 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDJ]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
If you were tought to keep you head perfectly level when you do your forms you were tought incorectly. You will have a slight up and down movement. If you watch someone walk they have a slight up and down movement. Not a huge up then down movement, AKA Sine Wave. When you SW you are in a constant state of changing your center dramaticaly. In Self Defense, how can this be benificial? When you block something how is moving up then down benificial. Oh what if a block is not a block but a strike or a lock? How does the SW help?

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