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#380146 - 01/28/08 12:13 PM Sine-Wave the early years
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
I was looking at some old movies of the ITF and was observing how they move from on technique to another. Although it is not the Sine-Wave that you see today, there was an up and down motion through the techniques. These movies had to be made between 1968 and 1971 since 1: they had piping on their uniforms and 2: it was filmed while Gen. Choi was still in Korea. So almost Forty years ago the idea of using the Sinewave motion was being practiced. I have video of Master Nunez when he was a third degree and I'm going to compare the two and how the technique changed over ten years.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#380147 - 01/28/08 01:17 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think that you will find that in the late 60s, early 70s, there was a slight up/down movement, then called knee spring. The hip twist was still emphasized. It was not till the 80s when the term SW was used. When it was 1st taught, there was an up/down movement. In the early 90s, when 8th Dan Master Park Jung Tae, the Chair of the Instruction Comm left the ITF & formed the GTF, that the SW started to have the emphasis on the down/up/down movement that is IMHO exaggerated. My thought on this was that Gen Choi had a huge loss when he expelled Master Park. So he had to lessen the loss by saying (& he did) that he had a big task to correct the mistakes he made. Now all fairness, Gen Choi, when he moved, always moved in a slight down?up?down motion. This was what I believed was relax/up/down. JMHO

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#380148 - 01/28/08 01:48 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
I feel the same way. Also I don't like the LOCOMOTION in the arms in the patterns. For example, Chon Ji, execute a low block w/ outer forarm then step forward and execute a middle obverse punch. When they start to move the resting fist comes forward then back then punch.
Training Secrets of TKD: all movements MUST start with a backwards movement with few exceptions.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#380149 - 01/28/08 08:10 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: michaelboik]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Yes it has been referred to as natural motion. There has always been a slight up and down motion which is produce when anybody is walking forward naturally. The General did/said many interesting things when his top people left.

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#380150 - 01/29/08 01:57 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: flynch]
VDan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 80
I have seen very rare footage (from the early 70's) of many of the ITF Pioneers doing pre sine wave patterns (meaning more side-to-side movement). But you can still see knee spring movement in all of the patterns. The first time I watched them (at my Master's Home) it was great to see the look on his face when he said - here it comes - the start of sine wave. Sine wave, in my opinion, is the single biggest difference between ITF TKD and all the rest.

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#380151 - 01/29/08 04:38 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: VDan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
VDan:
Is that footage from the Pioneers DVD? Or something else & who is your Master? You can PM me if you prefer.
Thanks

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#380152 - 01/31/08 09:49 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Knee spring IS NOT the early version of the sine wave. Knee spring was to help add power to stationary technique, the sine wave / natural motion and pre-naming it anything helps add power with the combined use of movement.

Before the term sine wave (either type) it can, as stated, be seen in the old TKD pionner videos (something I mention in the article I wrote some years back).. TKD masters can clearly eb seen rising & dropping into techniques (note: not dropping/rising/dropping) :-)

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#380153 - 01/31/08 10:17 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Knee spring IS NOT the early version of the sine wave. Knee spring was to help add power to stationary technique, the sine wave / natural motion and pre-naming it anything helps add power with the combined use of movement.
Before the term sine wave (either type) it can, as stated, be seen in the old TKD pionner videos (something I mention in the article I wrote some years back).. TKD masters can clearly eb seen rising & dropping into techniques (note: not dropping/rising/dropping) :-)Stuart




Mr. Anslow:
We have gone back & forth with this more than once LOL It usually turns into a rather esoteric debate, but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary. It may also be just a matter of semantics, but knee spring was used to increase power, before the term SW was used. Now some will say it was the pre-cursor of SW, but it certainly pre-dates the use of it.
Now what was changed was the terms & the emphasis on the range of the dip. In the early 1990s, SW was then taught as an relax or down/up/down, resulting in the exaggerated SW movement that many do today. JMHO

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#380154 - 01/31/08 03:54 PM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I agree with Master Unity. I view the term Sine wave as having been coined simply to describe the motion General Choi was alluding to all along, although there were certainly refinements which means you end up in an esoteric debate about matters of degree etc.

To once again repeat an old story . My first course with General Choi and an in depth Sine Wave tutorial was in 1990. General Choi explained it as "Up Down" . I actualy flew Fabian Nunez to my school to help teach it because although I understood it he was able to demonstrate it better. At that time I examined what he did and told him it looked more like Down Up Down, At first he said No, and theen after giving it more thought he agreed but said the initial "Down" was just slight. If you know him, he is one of those people you love to hate because he can observe and assimilate motion easily without (Seemingly) having to give it much thought.

Subsequent to that GM Sereff told how he traveled with General Choi on a multi nation tour and watching General Choi teach while waiting with him on a train platform, it also became clear that there was an initial Down or relaxation motion. So, what you had was as much (if not more) of an evolution of the description and explanation of the motion, than an evolution of the motion itself. Later courses saw the down / relaxation description used for the initial motion.

Over time General Choi adopted and changed his terminology to ry and better explain other concepts as well. This included the term "Connecting Motion" and hearing him refer to Solar plexus line and then change it to center line.


Edited by EarlWeiss (01/31/08 03:57 PM)

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#380155 - 02/01/08 07:29 AM Re: Sine-Wave the early years [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I view the term Sine wave as having been coined simply to describe the motion General Choi was alluding to all along,



So do I.. but simply feel it was in regards to the motions decribed as being seen in the early TKD vids (the evolution of it is a different debate). I simply feel this is a seperate thing to the knee spring.


Quote:

We have gone back & forth with this more than once LOL It usually turns into a rather esoteric debate,



Yes I know.. but I must continue to struggle against the dark side

Quote:

but the 1st clarification I would like to make is that knee spring WAS also for stepping movement, not just stationary.



Not the way I learnt it. I was specifically taught, knee spring to add power when stationary - whether the knee bend in the new/old sinewave is again, a different debate, but knee spring to me, is a seperate entity from sine wave.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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