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#380029 - 01/29/08 09:56 AM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
Make one yourself after several years of a metalwork class
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#380030 - 01/29/08 11:31 AM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Vennificus]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Make one yourself after several years of a metalwork class



Sorry, but that is just a ridiculous thing to say. You've obviously got no knowledge or concept of how Japanese swords are made. If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, please just read other people's posts!
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#380031 - 01/29/08 01:50 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: pgsmith]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Quote:

Sorry, but that is just a ridiculous thing to say. You've obviously got no knowledge or concept of how Japanese swords are made. If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, please just read other people's posts!




well in his defense I do like that Call of Duty quote he gave.. but ya Im confident that making a katana is quite a bit more difficult than a few years in a general metalworking class...
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#380032 - 01/29/08 02:48 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: fatguy]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
I say this because It would seem folly to put your trust in anything you haven't made yourself. Any Sword of any kind. If you do not know the results of endless painstaking days, folding and hammering, melting and molding firsthand, you have no idea how much of a defense that sword will give you.

I do not know the exact procedures, to making a japanese katana, especially not in traditional, but even though I don't have professional training, Me and my friend fight with sticks. We know that if we choose the wrong type of tree, even if we use planks of lumber, we know that the wrong choice means one of us is going to be recovering from a hard knock to the head for a few weeks (let's face it, we're not Miyamoto Musashi, we aren't trying to kill and we don't have ironwood. we're not gonna do that much damage)

Would you rather put your life behind a blade you made yourself or someone elses?
Sure you don't have to work to get the blade, but what's in the mystery box? How many times was the steel folded and hammered? How long was carbon migration aloud? How many blocks can you make before you end up like the guy in the cheap steel video? That is where my point is. Unless You know what the peice is capable of, That katana you may have paid a thousand for may just as well have been the peice of art you could've got for $30

(back to the tree part, We know that those Fir trees can't stand up to full blown sparring, we've tried, we've paid the price. We just do it for a laugh, not as serious sword training. And don't use lumber. It's not much better.)

P.S. Edit:
My life isn't worth much, I'm content with pre-packaged kraft dinner, and I'm not too worried about an assasination attempt


Edited by Vennificus (01/29/08 02:50 PM)
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#380033 - 01/29/08 03:04 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Vennificus]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Venn

Maybe, there are few if any absolutes in life.

I am however pretty sure that spending $1800 on a blade from a reputable dealer that has been in business for some time is going to get me a better blade than a "$30" one purchesed from a lesser known source.

That may not ALWAYS be the case---but that would be the way to bet.

We are not really talking absolutes---were talking about the reality of chance in an imperfect world.

And on durable goods--ESP those that involve some risk of serious injury--you skip the cheap stuff and buy the best you can afford.

I rock climb as a hobby---I had a guy ask me if buying the "expensive" rope was "really worth it???"

I kinda figured that his life etc was worth the extra price.

Not an exact match in terms of analogy of course--but its ballpark.
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#380034 - 01/29/08 03:18 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Vennificus]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

I say this because It would seem folly to put your trust in anything you haven't made yourself.




It seems like folly to put my trust in any sword which I made myself. I also do not know the exact procedures for making a servicable blade, but I do know I don't intend to spend the next 20 or so years learning the basics just so I can continue my training.

Quote:

Would you rather put your life behind a blade you made yourself or someone elses?




Someone elses, any day of the week. In fact, I risk serious injury everytime I train with a live blade no matter who made it. My shinken was made by a very reputable smith in China. My particular sword came from a reputable importer and was recommended by two instructors within my style, including my own sensei. It ran me $1800.

Would you apply your logic to your car? You are at far greater risk of dying in a car accident than in a sword fight. Do you insist on building your own car? After all how can you know it was built correctly with good parts? Would you risk your life in a car that you built? How about a plane that you built?


Edited by Charles Mahan (01/29/08 03:21 PM)
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#380035 - 01/29/08 03:19 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: cxt]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
True, although I was referring to the lack of knowledge element. It is likely that if they are able to place their prices high then they are a considerable choice. But again, you don't know how cheap it is until you are lacking an arm and short a K.

There aren't too many famous dealers anymore, I mean, people don't place their life on the sword like they used to, opting for a faster alternative that gives them a better chance to run away.

On another note, one would be hard pressed to make High quality rock climbing equipment by hand. It can be done sure. Hell If you have the time, why not use spiders like silkworms. But swords have been made in small enclosed spaces by hand scince...they began making them really... the alternative being outside.

And on another note (again), Does anyone have any specs on high-end ceramic blades? They are supposedly stronger and more resistant than steel. Maybe you should try one of those?
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#380036 - 01/29/08 03:26 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Vennificus]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
There are plenty of famous swordsmiths in Japan. Not so many as any of us would like I'm sure, but they are hardly rare. There are now multiple smithies in China that are producing some very high quality products, and a gazillion churning out cheap dangerous junk. The trick is discerning which is which, and that knowledge can be had from a reputable instructor.

I am not aware of any ceramic blades in sword lengths. While ceramics can be stronger than steel, I believe you will find that it is too brittle to sustain the kind of stress that swords are expected to survive.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#380037 - 01/29/08 03:45 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Vennificus]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
Touché
In the case of a car, there are more security certifications, and alot more security features.
However to relate to a slightly different mechanization, My grandfather's old fridge was put together by hand, true it was bought, but the fact that it is about 50 years old and still functioning perfectly, whereas other such things have a life expectancy of what? 5 years? Common Factory work is often done by robots, and you will often hear that things made by hand were much more reliable.
yet again, my argument is weak. Your point.
Another angle from my view is that it is not so much how you trust a blade, It is how you trust it's maker. Out of necessity, would you make the best work you possibly could, or would you say, "6 months I have worked on this sword, It is done enough"
We have to consider that Drg seems to be hinting at self defense, entirely likely putting his life on the line.
If he did take the time to learn, then not only would he be able to repair, reforge, and fit his own sword. He would know what work had been done and what that work was capable of.

Making your own is only an option. All options have equal considerable points, He must make the choice on what risks there are.

(And I used to have a friend who's dad built planes for arctic use in their garage. Considering that fact I probably could place confidence in a plane I built. Or If for example I knew how to build a car, then yes I would build one, as it happens not only do I not know how, I also prefer biking or walking)
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#380038 - 01/29/08 03:46 PM Re: Surgical Stainless Steel Katana?? [Re: Vennificus]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

well in his defense I do like that Call of Duty quote he gave.. but ya Im confident that making a katana is quite a bit more difficult than a few years in a general metalworking class...



Yeah, I was in a pretty bitchy mood (happens alot!). However, I have very little tolerance for kids that try to get on the internet and act like they have knowledge when they don't. "Internet experts" are a particularly sore spot with me. It's not the fact that they are an irritant (although that's true), it is the fact that many people that are truly trying to learn something end up with really skewed ideas from listening to these people.
Quote:

I say this because It would seem folly to put your trust in anything you haven't made yourself.



Vennificus,
You sound like a pretty good kid, but you would be much better off asking questions and reading other's answers rather than trying to give out advice yourself. If you follow your own advice from this statement, you'll never drive a car, since I doubt you'll make your own.
Quote:

Any Sword of any kind. If you do not know the results of endless painstaking days, folding and hammering, melting and molding firsthand, you have no idea how much of a defense that sword will give you.



I've got an excellent idea of what it takes to make a sword. I've watched them being made, and talked with various craftsmen involved in making the parts. I've used both antique and modern made Japanese swords in my practice. I've also used Japanese style swords made by various companies from China, Thailand, the Phillipines, and by several makers in the U.S. I know a little bit first-hand about what makes a decent sword.

First, it doesn't take endless days of folding and hammering to make a sword. Folding is not necessary when using modern steel, and it only takes a day to pound out a sword. Second, I don't think I will ever have to depend on a sword to defend myself. Third, despite the fact that I know pretty much what all is involved, I wouldn't trust myself to be able to make a decent sword. I would much rather trust the fellow that's put decades of his life into learning how to properly make a sword.

Just for general info, here's an interesting "article in progress" from anvilfire, a really informative blacksmithing site. Good information about what's involved in making swords ... http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/swords_faq_index.htm.
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