FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 36 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn
22904 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 15
cxt 8
trevek 6
futsaowingchun 3
JKogas 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Throwing
by
04/23/05 10:58 PM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
Yesterday at 12:01 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/29/14 05:11 AM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:53 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
Forum Stats
22904 Members
36 Forums
35564 Topics
432457 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#379914 - 01/25/08 03:27 PM Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quite a few years back, as is my way, I went to a Ju Jitsu class. It was a World Ju Jitsu Federation class. I thought it would be good for my Aikido, and would be interesting to learn! I went on to the WJJF website, bought one of their books and read about the martial art of the Samurai… or so I thought.

Things started going wrong from the first class. The instructor asked me for money straight away (never a good sign). It was expensive too.

A while into class, I notice advanced students doing some weapons forms. Some were using Sais. Now I always thought that Sais were weapons used in the Ryukyuan prefecture. They were not the weapon of choice for Samurai. Something did seem right about the whole set up.

I went home, done a bit more study into the WJJF and its founder Robert Clarke, and went to a few more classes. Turns out I wasn’t studying what I thought I was. It wasn’t Ju Jutsu; it was a modern self defence class labelling itself as JJ for marketing purposes.

Now I could go on about the dubious nature of orgs like the WJJF, but there would be no point. Plenty of people go to these classes and get great benefit from it and enjoy it. Power to them.

The reason for the above tale is to use it as a context for the question of this thread:

How rare is Traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu in the Western world?

I ran a poll on here a while back to see how many people had trained in traditional JJ. Not many had. So it got me wondering: How rare is it to find trad. JJ outside of Japan?

Now I am aware that modern Budo arts such as Judo, Aikido, BJJ, and “modern” JJ styles are popular in today’s world. But I want to talk about traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu here.

For the sake of this post, the criteria for traditional Ju Jutsu will be systems considered as part of the Koryu (e.g. Kito Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, Daito Ryu etc….).

Any posts welcome.

P.S. I love Judo. I love Aikido. I think BJJ is great. But there are any number of threads (heck, even dedicated forums!) about those topics. I would appreciate if this thread could be about Traditional Ju Jutsu, as defined above.

Many thanks and any (legit) comments appreciated.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#379915 - 01/25/08 03:57 PM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu [Re: Prizewriter]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
It's quite rare.
The vast majority oif what people here call Jujutsu is Judo mixed with Aikido, Karate or something else. Now there is Brazilian Jujutsu - still coming from Judo not Jujutsu.
It seems anything that uses joint locks, throws or grappling of any kind is called Jujutsu.

Top
#379916 - 01/25/08 07:04 PM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu [Re: Prizewriter]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
There's supposedly a guy in LA that teaches traditional daito ryu aikijujitsu, but you can't jus take classes. It's kinda like you have to know someone who will introduce you, then you have to write an essay on why you want to train with him and if selected take an old school kinda oath of loyalty.

He teaches with no belt levels, just the training. But, as I said, it's really hard to even find the guy let alone get training. The guy's name is Don Angier. Here's a link to the article.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

Top
#379917 - 01/25/08 08:54 PM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: JMWcorwin]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

There's supposedly a guy in LA that teaches traditional daito ryu aikijujitsu, but you can't jus take classes...
training... The guy's name is Don Angier...



Hi,

He doesn't teach Daito-ryu. He teaches Yanagi-ryu.

His teacher's father, Kotaro Yoshida, taught Daito-ryu in Japan, but he also transmitted a family art to his son.

Mr. Angier is wholly legitimate. Yanagi-ryu is a form of Aikijujutsu. That's obvious from seeing the techniques. If you do a search for it on youtube, you should find a really nice clip from what appears to be the 70s. It's excellent stuff.

With respect to your original question, I believe that authentic Japanese Jujutsu is pretty rare in the States. There seems to be a lot of stuff calling itself Daito-ryu that isn't. There are only a handful of legitimate Daito-ryu dojos in this country, regardless of which line you're talking about.

One final thought for now... you can find some lively and very well-informed discussions on the internet about whether Daito-ryu should be properly considered a koryu.

Top
#379918 - 01/26/08 11:15 AM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: howard]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I think it is the same for most places in the world outside of Japan. There are no Koryu schools in Ireland I believe, and only 3 that I know of in the UK.

It’s a similar story in the rest of Europe.

Re Daito Ryu being considered Koryu, I have read some of those discussions myself. I am not in a position to say whether it is or not, but thought to include it here for the sake of the thread.

Just to further the thread on a little... Anyone have and idea why it is so hard to find trad. JJ outside of Japan? Is it that, in light of Modern Budo, these arts are deemed antiquated and outdated? Or is it that there is a reluctance to teach these arts outside of Japan? Or is it a problem of ignorance amongst the general public as to traditional Japanese JJ is/is not?

Thanks for all the posts so far.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#379919 - 01/26/08 12:20 PM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: Prizewriter]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

Re Daito Ryu being considered Koryu, I have read some of those discussions myself. I am not in a position to say whether it is or not, but thought to include it here for the sake of the thread.



Hi,

As I understand it, the basic question is whether Tokimune Takeda's accounts of the transmission of Daito-ryu down generations of Takedas since something like 1150 is historically accurate, or myth. Tokimune told Stanley Pranin that he read this account in some secret scrolls that are only made available to Shinto priests. Since there were priests in the Takeda clan, he was allowed access to the scrolls.

Pranin relates Tokimune's account in his book about Daito-ryu masters, but seems to me to be careful to limit himself to that. In other words, I cannot find where he (Pranin) offers his own opinion about the accuracy of Tokimune's account.

In the past couple of years, a handful of Koryu researchers have suggested that Daito-ryu as a unified art never existed until Sokaku Takeda came along. If this turns out to be true, then, of course, Daito-ryu cannot be considered Koryu.

Quote:

Just to further the thread on a little... Anyone have and idea why it is so hard to find trad. JJ outside of Japan? Is it that, in light of Modern Budo, these arts are deemed antiquated and outdated? Or is it that there is a reluctance to teach these arts outside of Japan? Or is it a problem of ignorance amongst the general public as to traditional Japanese JJ is/is not?



Now those are good questions.

I don't know... It's surprising to me that more native Japanese Jujutsuka have not immigrated to the States and Europe and established schools. Look at the Koreans, by comparison... there are dozens of Korean natives in the States running TKD and Hapkido schools.

I don't think there's a lack of interest (at least not in the States). A lot of people seem to be interested in Daito-ryu and seem to find it exotic. I also wonder about whether people consider Jujtutsu archaic and not applicable to modern times. Maybe many do, but if one learns the principles of Jujutsu, those can certainly be applied to modern self-defense. (IMO, of course. )

One thing I think may be at work is that traditional Japanese Jujutsu of any variety requires a lot of dedication. The techniques in the arts that involve an aiki component are full of subtleties, and take a long time to learn (at least for most of us). Another thing I think is at work is that it is plain old uncomfortable to train in traditional Jujutsu and its derivative arts, like old-school Hapkido as Choi Yong Sul taught. Very few people seem willing to stick with it over the years.

btw, I think this is an excellent topic for discussion... thanks for bringing it up.

Top
#379920 - 01/26/08 01:42 PM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: Prizewriter]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

Just to further the thread on a little... Anyone have and idea why it is so hard to find trad. JJ outside of Japan? Is it that, in light of Modern Budo, these arts are deemed antiquated and outdated? Or is it that there is a reluctance to teach these arts outside of Japan? Or is it a problem of ignorance amongst the general public as to traditional Japanese JJ is/is not?





As Japan first began to emerge from thier isolation and moved towards westernization, there was also a move to "civilize" and martial arts had fallen out of favor. By the time Jigaro Kano, the Judo founder, began his Jujutsu training, Jujutsu was nearly extinct. He had a very difficult time findng a teacher and had even been advised to forget about Jujutsu. So this is in 1870's Japan that Jujutsu was nearly gone. There were only a few schools, except of course for what was being done in the military and police depts.

By 1882 Judo was established. As it grew, so did interest in the history and thus the parent art. Later, as Judo changed interest in the older, traditional "self defense" arts grew even more. But there weren't many schools. So people started mixing Judo with Aikido, Karate and just about anything else and calling it "jujutsu".

It did not take long for gendai "hybrid" jujutsu schools to outnumber the koryu schools.

Take the near total extinction of the koryu schools by the 1870's and add to that the closed nature of the schools (not teaching gaijin) and the fact that so few of the practitioners left the country, you can see why there is very little of it outside of Japan.

As far as Daito Ryu being a true koryu, I am on the side of saying YES, but I understand why some say NO.

In actuality, Takeda Sokaku was the Founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Some references call him the "restorer" of the art. Either way you look it, he organized it and named it. He likely even studied other arts, some say he studied Asayama Ichiden Ryu and used that as a foundation.

But, he did carry on an ancient lineage.

Top
#379921 - 01/27/08 05:17 AM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: JAMJTX]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Great stuff Jim! This seems to be a reoccuring theme with many traditional martial arts.

Ashe posted a trailer for a documentary called "Fighting arts of Borneo" due out this year in the Chinese/ Kung Fu forum. The documentary is about Chinese martial artists who fear that some Chinese systems of fighting will be lost within 2 generations.


I was on a Silat website, were the Guru said that teachers in Indonesia were more receptive to people outside the country now learing Silat, as many of the youth in Indonesia aren't interested in it. They have MTV and Diet Coke instead, like most people in the world nowadays.

Suppose it is sign of the times. I think as long as there are people willing to learn (which there are) then these martial arts will never truly die.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#379922 - 01/27/08 10:43 AM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: JAMJTX]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

In actuality, Takeda Sokaku was the Founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Some references call him the "restorer" of the art. Either way you look it, he organized it and named it. He likely even studied other arts, some say he studied Asayama Ichiden Ryu and used that as a foundation.

But, he did carry on an ancient lineage.



Hi Jim,

Sokaku definitely studied other arts, in particular Ono ha Itto ryu (sword). His outstanding sword skills are documented.

As for the formal organization of the techniques into a syllabus, that is typically attributed to his son, Tokimune. Tokimune named the techniques and organized the Hiden Mokuroku that is the basis of Daito-ryu instruction.

Top
#379923 - 01/27/08 11:05 AM Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J [Re: howard]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Howard, thanks for the correction re: Tokimune Takeda and the mokuroko. I am aware of that and should have made mention of it. But is not also correct that that Sokaku put together some sort of syllabus that did not previous exist? I know he taught in more of a seminar format and did not have a dojo. But he still seemed to have had some sort of organization.

With regards to Borneo arts, the same thing happened with Filipino Escrima. It was pretty much saved here in the U.S. by Angel Cabales and a handful of others.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki, Taison 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga