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#379566 - 01/22/08 12:52 PM Kamishinryu -Hanbo???
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

I am doing research and was hoping that one of our FA visitors/members was a Kamishinryu kobudo practitioner? We have a hanbo kata that nobody could identify its origins. Recently found documents strongly indicate it is a hanbo kata of that ryu possibly

Can anybody assist identifying the Hanbo kata of this ryu?

Jeff

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#379567 - 01/22/08 01:18 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
most likely it was created by Albert Church, the creator of Kamishin Ryu

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#379568 - 01/25/08 11:47 AM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: JAMJTX]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello McCoy-san:

My belief based upon deductive guesswork from the written information I have uncovered. However just because I THINK it could be the case, the kata has the feel of an ~elder kata~ does not mean my deduction is at all correct.

Are you a practitioner of Kamishinryu McCoy-san?

Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (01/25/08 11:48 AM)

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#379569 - 01/25/08 12:52 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I am not a Kamishin Ryu practitioner but I know enough about the history.
Albert Church, the Kamishin Ryu founder visited Japan where he learned Motoboha Shito Ryu Karate, Mugai Ryu Iaido and I think he trined in Hakko Ryu Jujutsu there as well. He had background in Judo and had some other martial arts training here. When he returned from Japan he concocted a story of having inherited an ancient form of Chinese Kenpo from a Korean who was also the inheritor of a Korean branch of Daito Ryu. He claimed that due to this inheritance, while in Japan, they made him a "soke". Oddly enough, this ancient Chinese Kenpo and Korean Aikijujutsu are identical to the Shito Ryu and Hakko Ryu that he learned.

I do know that he also learned some Kobudo from Shogo Kuniba while in Japan. Also, it's very likely that he learned more through associations with others in the U.S.
Being the founder of the first known "Sokeship council" in the USA he came in contact with a lot of people.

Rgardless of what may be said, Kamishin Ryu is his own creation.

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#379570 - 01/25/08 04:43 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: JAMJTX]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Jim:

Respectfully I neither know, nor in this context CARE as to such foolishness (eg whether he is a bone-fide soke). My question was specific to the knowledge (yours or anyone elses) specific as to the hanbo kata of that art.

To your knowledge do any of the assorted arts mentioned Hakko or the Daitoryu possess relatively short hanbo kata??? I am aware of at least three which the curricilium of Kamishinryu aka Nippon Kamishin Kobudo (?) and other evolutions as well one assumes apparently possess(ed) at least at one point. But I can find no video anywhere of them.

Can anyone pin down the origins of the hanbo kata at one point which was/is in that curricilium??? Nothing on www.youtube.com yet that I could find at least.

We have a short hanbo kata, and merely want to find its "parents"

Jeff

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#379571 - 01/25/08 09:28 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
To your knowledge do any of the assorted arts mentioned Hakko or the Daitoryu possess relatively short hanbo kata???

Not to my knowledge. I'm quite sue this would be a kata created by Church.

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#379572 - 01/27/08 09:38 AM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: JAMJTX]
DCollins Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/26/04
Posts: 7
Loc: Summerville, SC
Jeff,

I am a Kamishinryu practitioner and I will address your question. I will not address the statements made by JAMJTX due to the fact that we have had all of these debates before on other forums except the statement that "the Chinese Kempo and Korean Aikijujutsu are identical to the Shito Ryu and Hakko Ryu he learned". I am friends with shihan under Kozo Kuniba and they would disagree with that statement. I just spoke with Shihan James Herndon, Information Director of the Kuniba Kai (whom I will be seeing in a couple of weeks) and he is very familiar with our history as a system. I have trained with a Shihan from Hakko Ryu and it is NOT the same.
As far as any Okinawan Kobudo weapons forms, they were all learned by Church sensei mainly from Shogo Kuniba sensei. Church sensei taught Seishinkan Budo at his dojo from the time he returned from Japan until 1977 (completeing an agreement made between him and Kuniba sensei). During that time he taught Motobu Ha Shito Ryu Karate and Kobudo (and in the early 70's Hakko Ryu Jujutsu) to many of the students. The Kempo teachings do not include Hanbo Kata. I still have teaching curriculum from the NKR during that time for Kobudo and on the documents they clearly state "Seishinkan Sogo Budo Renmei". If I could see the kata (video) and show it to my senior students (who were also trained by Church sensei) I may be able to find out something on the kata (maybe). I hope this helps.

Darrell Collins
Nippon Kobudo Rengokai

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#379573 - 01/27/08 10:02 AM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: DCollins]
DCollins Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/26/04
Posts: 7
Loc: Summerville, SC
Jeff,

I forgot to add, I am also good friends with a Kuniba Ryu Goshin Budo and Kobudo Shihan under Shogo Kuniba Sensei and he may be able to shed some light on the kata as well. Let me know if I can help.

Darrell Collins
Nippon Kobudo Rengokai

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#379574 - 01/27/08 10:29 AM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: DCollins]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I also trained in Seishinkai/NKJU and have a copy of Church's manual.
I also know that Church broek off from Kuniba as asoon as he got on the plane back home and that Kuniba denied many of the claims made by church. If you want, I'll post the copy of the letter that Kozo Kuniba wrote to Black Belt magazine discrediting church.

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#379575 - 01/27/08 11:46 AM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: DCollins]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Collins-san:

Of the assorted ryu which Church sensei learned, specificly re: the kobudo (the weapons) component... did any art possess hanbo kata???

We are trying to "find the parents" of this kata ... I was only exposed to it less than six months ago and relearned it again maybe six weeks ago. My kata would require serious, serious improvement... to have any merit. but let me see if anyone here has a video camera we could use... figure out how to post, etceteria, etceteria.

I could walk you through the first few movements It should be easily identifiable...

Jeff

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#379576 - 01/27/08 12:40 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
The kobudo came from Kuniba, then was changed. There was no hanbo kata

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#379577 - 01/27/08 04:53 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
DCollins Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/26/04
Posts: 7
Loc: Summerville, SC
Jeff,

I do have NKR (Sieshinkan) Hanbo curriculum so I would say yes. I did not learn any Hanbo kata as I did not train in the (seishinkan) Karate / Kobudo teachings of Church sensei. Again, I do have senior students that did train in the Karate forms and may have some info on it.
As far as the Kozo Kuniba statement, Most of this was political due to the misbehavings of one of church sensei's students. It has all already been dealt with and is OLD NEWS. I will be seeing Kozo Kuniba, soke soon. There is no problem between our organizations. Also, the people who were in leadership positions in Seishinkai disagree with the statement that Church sensei "broke away" from Kuniba sensei. I have been told by several Kuniba Ryu seniors (of whom I am friends with today) that Church sensei was one of the best sources of Kuniba related arts in the US in the 70's. Not to mention that Shogo Kuniba and James Herndon came to Church sensei's funeral. I have recently written documents from the Kuniba Kai that backs up all of this.
Jeff, If you would like to, you can e-mail me directly concerning the Kata, I will help where I can.

Darrell Collins
Nippon Kobudo Rengokai

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#379578 - 02/12/08 03:26 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: DCollins]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Collins-san:

I appreciate your kindness and assistance. I will most definately be following up. All I have to do is find someone with a decent video camera and hopefully present the kata with at least a grain of dignity...

It is (sic. politely) "obscenely rough" kata demonstration on my part, another 10 years might help sufficently. Even so, I will attempt to align the required equipment...


Jeff

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#379579 - 02/18/08 06:45 AM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
DCollins Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/26/04
Posts: 7
Loc: Summerville, SC
No worries, you will get no critiques. I just need to get an overview of the kata to try to determine what it is. I look forward to hearing from you.

Darrell Collins
Nippon Kobudo Rengokai

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#379580 - 02/18/08 10:15 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: DCollins]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Collins-san:

When will you see these individuals? Imminantly? The next few weeks?

Jeff

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#379581 - 03/09/08 04:37 PM Re: Kamishinryu -Hanbo??? [Re: Ronin1966]
DCollins Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/26/04
Posts: 7
Loc: Summerville, SC
Jeff,
I am sorry I did not answer this post earlier, for some reason, I have not been on this forum in some time. I met with Soke Kozo Kuniba and Shihan James Herndon on Feb 2nd. I enjoyed the time I spent with Kuniba Soke and Herndon Shihan. Soke Kuniba and I talked a good bit while we watched the participants practice their "Goshindo", then after the seminar we went out for dinner and talked more about re-associating our two organizations. I am also friends with Butch Velez and his "Goshin Budo / Kobudo" group. They are good people with a heart to continue the teachings passed to them by Kuniba Shogo Soke in the 70's.
Any luck on that kata? Let me know, through my students, I should be able to find out something for you.

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