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#378405 - 01/10/08 08:09 AM USA MUGAI RYU
seibukanUK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 43
Hello All,
I study Mugai Ryu Iai Heido. I have recently viewed some Mugai Ryu videos from various sources that originated from pratitioners and teachers in the USA. It seems to be completely different to the Mugai Ryu that I do and other schools here in Europe, especially chiburi but also some of the Katas. Although they are named exactly the same. Can anyone shed any light on why this is?
Kind Regards
Sean
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#378406 - 01/10/08 05:34 PM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: seibukanUK]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
I don't practice Mugai ryu so I can't help you. Perhaps, is it different substyles of Mugai ryu? Maybe if you post some links to videos and explain some differences more experienced members might chime in
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#378407 - 01/10/08 11:44 PM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
socho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Virginia
there are many lines of Mugai Ryu, and many groups that claim to do it but have no current affiliation with any recognized line. Which line are you in? (Who is your sensei's sensei?) And what videos are you talking about. Links would be nice.

Dave
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#378408 - 01/11/08 01:09 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: socho]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Most of the Mugai Ryu in the US was passed down through Shogo Kuniba and his American students. But there are a lot of problems there.

Kuniba trained up to 4th Dan (perhaps 3rd) under Isshi Gogetsu who was Soke of Mugai Ryu Iahihyodo for a short time. Kuniba started teaching Mugai Ryu and little by little started developing his own style. But even after he changed the name to Kuniba Ryu many of his former American students continued calling it Mugai Ryu. Other students of his just learned some of the kata and then split off forming thier own branches of Mugai Ryu.

I cant' speak for what is happening in Europe. I'm sure there are a number of splinter groups there too. I would assume that using the HEIDO romaji you are connected with Kai Kuniyuki Soke, who is one of the 4 appointed as 16th Soke of Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo. Is that correct? Perhaps you can share some of your background.

If looking for Mugai Ryu in the USA you will need to decide what you want - just kata or be part of a continuing Japanese tradition. There are a number of schools descended from Kuniba, there are a few more traditional schools and there is a growing movement in the newsport/tounrnament version of Muagi Ryu.

As far as comparing it to what they are doing in Japan, there are atleast 9 people who claim to be Soke of Mugai Ryu (likely more). So you just have to pick who want to follow and go with that.

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#378409 - 01/11/08 01:17 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: seibukanUK]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Sean,

I found your dojo web site through your profile and see that you are affiliated with Kai Kuniyuki Sensei.

I don't know how old this web site, but it lists Kai Sensei as 9th Dan Hanshi in Muagai Ryu. Has the site just not been updated in a few years? Or is he not using the title of Soke any more?

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#378410 - 01/11/08 05:30 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: JAMJTX]
seibukanUK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 43
Thanks for your responses James. Perhaps it is Kuniba Ryu that I have been watching although it is described as Mugai Ryu.The Chiburi appears to be more like MJER than Mugai ryu.Kai Sensei is 16th Soke and continues to use the title. The site is very rarely updated.
Regards
Sean
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#378411 - 01/11/08 05:32 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: socho]
seibukanUK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 43
See below for answers Dave. Unfortunately the videos I have been watching are not web based.
Sean
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#378412 - 01/11/08 06:10 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: seibukanUK]
seibukanUK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 43
I just Found this:
http://ejmas.com/tin/2007tin/mugai/A%20C...0Ryu%20Iai.html
It's very interesting and it does appear that I have been watching Kuniba Ryu, although it is advertised as Mugai Ryu
Thanks to Jim for pointing me in the right direction.
Sean.
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#378413 - 01/11/08 02:28 PM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: JAMJTX]
gobonuki Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 3
Quote:

there is a growing movement in the newsport/tounrnament version of Muagi Ryu.




Please explain...

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#378414 - 01/11/08 04:25 PM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: gobonuki]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
The growing popularity of taikai/competition has spawned a new Mugai Ryu version that incorporates new kata to meet the demands of the competition.

So if you see some Mugai Ryu stlist doing kata that you do not recognize, it may be one of the new competition kata.

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#378415 - 01/11/08 09:20 PM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: JAMJTX]
gobonuki Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 3
As someone who studies in the specific ryuha your website incorrectly mentions as being 'based in competition', I take exception to this. We do not base our practice on competition, though we do take part in a select few events out of a sense of camaraderie with other sword styles. And all our kata are those handed down for generations, and not developed for said taikai.

I would say that your characterization of our method of practice is inaccurate at best, and uncharitable at worst.

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#378416 - 01/11/08 09:43 PM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: gobonuki]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
It's quite an accurate statement.
What I take offense at is the lies and innacuracies spread by your organization, as well as the degradation of Mugai Ryu.

In order to popularize this style, it's pretty much turning into the Tae Kwon Do of iaido styles.

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#378417 - 01/11/08 09:47 PM gobonuki [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Since you created the account specifically to troll this thread, would you mind identifying yourself? Or will you continue the pattern of anonimity and fake names that your group is noted for on other boards?


Edited by JAMJTX (01/11/08 09:58 PM)

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#378418 - 01/12/08 12:53 AM politics [Re: JAMJTX]
socho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Virginia
Sean,
I thought the article by Rob was fairly well balanced and a good reference. He has studied both the Kuniba-ha and Meishi-ha lines.
As for competition Mugai, would have to agree with 'gobonuki'. There is a US Federation recognized under one of the lines in Japan, but no competition forms or made up stuff. there is an annual tai kai in Tokyo which the US Fed groups participate in. i believe several lines were represented at the last two. And a few annual open tai kai in the USA, but each group does their own forms in 'open' competition. Usually there are some very senior Japanese sensei attending, teaching, and judging. Good way to meet some good people, see what's out there. As Jim said, there are several lines active in the US, in addition to the Kuniba ha. Most of them are or were associated with Shiokawa sensei, I believe. There are some unfortunate politics and personal issues. best to just do whatever you do and ignore the rest.

Dave
_________________________
"the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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#378419 - 01/12/08 01:23 AM Re: politics [Re: socho]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I wasn't going to mention the article. I did read it myself.
I thought it was a little bit biased towards the Meishi-ha, which is referred to as "traditional Mugai Ryu".

This article is based mostly one experiance with the Albert Church HA of Mugai Ryu than on actual "Kuniba Ryu". Church learned Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo from Kuniba in Japan in the late 1960's. He returned home and started teaching but soon after annointed himself as soke of the ancient chinese-korean-japanese art of Kamishin Ryu (which is a another story in itself). He did not even keep true to what Kuniba taught him so he essentially had his own brand of Mugai Ryu which is called Kuniba Ryu by some. Kuniba Ryu was not so named until 1983 and is very different from the Mugai Ryu that Kuniba was teaching in the 60's.

The Kuniba Ryu was misrepresented. Perhaps not intentionally, as the author was misled by "soke" Church and his followers.

Also "Meishi ha" Mugai Ryu is described as "traditional Mugai Ryu". That can be seen as a debatable issue also since it has gone through some changes. The addition of the HA to the style name tells you that it is not mainline.

As for the Meishi ha competition being only 1 annual event in Japan, that is also not quite correct. The U.S. branch has forged alliances with some groups consisting of Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu, Goshin Jutsu Kyojujo and perhaps some others to make a sort of tournament circuit. The organization that runs the competitions sets rules and defines the kata to be performed. This is hardly what I would call "traditional Mugai Ryu".


Edited by JAMJTX (01/12/08 01:27 AM)

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#378420 - 01/12/08 01:39 AM Re: politics [Re: JAMJTX]
socho Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Virginia
Hi Jim, am not personally familiar with either the Kuniba line or the Church ha, aside from meeting a few students, so can't really address the history or politics. I do participate in the US 'circuit', also visit the tai kai in Japan. If the seniors in our various styles are happy with our efforts, that's good enough for me. Events that try to accomodate multiple styles will inevitably have to compromise somewhat. But in my opinion it is just an event, not the focus.

Dave
_________________________
"the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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#378421 - 01/12/08 02:00 AM Re: politics [Re: socho]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
When people in the Meishiha leadership start challenging people to come to the Taikai to prove the legitimacy of thier style, I'd say that goes a bit beyond "just an event" and makes it a real focus.

But I do agree with what you say about the seniors being happy and students being happy with what thier doing.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the competition, compromising with others or even working other kata into the style for the competition. The funny thing is, that is the same sort of thing that I understand Isshi Soke is criticized by the Meishi ha for having done. Also, Kuniba experimented with other styles and compromised with some while he was teaching Mugai Ryu. For this, the Meishi ha organization has also branded him a charlatan and a fake.

You personally may just like the Meishi ha style, which is fine, and may not be involved or even interested in the politics. But the politics is a major part of what the Meishi ha leadership is all about.

Meishi ha was introduced to the U.S. via a major drive on the internet, coordinated by the honbu, to come to forums like this and attempt to smear the reputations of virtually everyone who ever taught Mugain Ryu in the US before them. Sure, a good number of them deserved it. But a lot of it was also unfounded and undeserved.

Postings by the appointed leaders of the internet smear campaign included name calling, lies about good people and misrepresentation of the training and qualifications of people. Then came the tournament circuit and then comments about other groups being too political.

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#378422 - 01/12/08 04:46 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: JAMJTX]
seibukanUK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 43
Guys, I have to say, I am shocked. I never realised what this thread was going to develop into. It was certainly never my intention. I am very lucky to have my Sensei Aaron Fuest and fortunate to have gone to Honbu and other events and trained with Kai Sensei and Sato Sensei and allot of their students and had fantastic expieriences. Never has any of this sort of politics emerged...thankfully. For me it is simple. It is either authentic Mugai Ryu or not. I am fortunate to know that, I am indeed learning authentic Mugai Ryu from some top Sensei and students... I am thankful for this. I am sorry it may not be as simple for others.
Sean
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#378423 - 01/12/08 09:09 AM Re: USA MUGAI RYU [Re: seibukanUK]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Jim, whatever your beef with Meisha-ha, whether it is legitimate or all in your head, it doesn't matter. You're being rude to the point of violating forum policies. There is no reason for you to go out of your way to denegrate the members of another style, and since Meisha-ha is something you do not study, you are in great danger of catching foot in mouth disease.

As this thread has degenerated to an unacceptable level, mostly due to Mr McCoy, I am locking the thread. Anyone who wishes to continue the discussion may create a new thread.
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