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#377946 - 04/20/08 09:08 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Stuart A



I offer an example
Here is what I mean by many Olympic competitors already had the training plus these incredible other skills, Olympic training.

This man was the Korean national champ between 1965 and 1968 and a U.S. combative instructor for 18 years. He was a combative instructor befor he was champ. He did not just train for competition like soooo many others do not just train for competition. The competition is only one component of training.

http://www.kilstkdonline.com/grandmaster1.html




Von,

Similarly the ATA founder was an instructor for Korean military intelligence officers and went forth from there.

http://www.ataonline.com/about/history.asp

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#377947 - 04/20/08 10:09 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Huhmasta]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

How is TKD loosing popularity? Like over half the world does it. People say it sucks because of other people who make it look bad. Mcdojo's such as the ATA who do it just for the money instead of actual teaching. ... I can't tell you guys how damn tired and sick I am of mofo's bashing on other martial arts instead of repsecting it for what it is. You don't like because it doesn't fit your style? Who cares, doesn't mean you bash it.




I certainly hope your physical training exceeds your mental training. It's amazing and even amusing to see you lead your first post with an attack of ATA while complaining of such attacks...

While I am sure to concede that not every ATA school follows the organizations' rank promotion rules, I have clearly heard that said of ITF and WTF clubs by their own proponents.

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#377948 - 04/20/08 10:13 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Huhmasta]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
... and, HuhMaster, as an ATA school owner that has kept a school open through enormous personal financial losses for my students' benefit and my commitment to their well-being, I personally take unbounded offense that you suggest I (or any of the other owners that I know) are just in it for the money.

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#377949 - 04/20/08 11:42 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: jeff_andle]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Similarly the ATA founder was an instructor for Korean military intelligence officers and went forth from there. http://www.ataonline.com/about/history.asp




Sir, how come the ATA makes no mention of the 1st president of their group, GM Kang Suh Chong?
He was also an instructor in the military intel div, under Gen. Choi. he also founded his own Kwan, was later VP of the ITF & of course GM lee's senior.
Have you heard of him?

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#377950 - 04/21/08 07:09 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Sir, how come the ATA makes no mention of the 1st president of their group, GM Kang Suh Chong?
He was also an instructor in the military intel div, under Gen. Choi. he also founded his own Kwan, was later VP of the ITF & of course GM lee's senior.
Have you heard of him?




Sir,

I have not heard of him and am not nearly as well versed in the history or the people associated with that time period as I could be. This is not necessarily for lack of interest but lack of time. Certainly it was a gioven in my mind that EGM H U Lee and GM S H Lee had seniors while they trained in exile in Manchuria during the war and later through the formation of their American branch. Certainly they did not promote themselves, especially early on.

I seem to recall earlier published ATA histories discussing the early days more and expect that this is a case of only presenting what is relevant to the organization.

While the history is fascinating and I agree that many people did not get credit for their contributions, the acrimony between groups and federations needs to end. Concessions are needed on all sides for that to happen.

Certainly we can agree that the span between the best and worst examples in any federation is wider that the span between the typical quality between most federations. A good martial artist and instructor is good regardless of their choice of paths. In the end it's really a question of what you (not you personally but the generic reader) have done or will do for your art. This week I am spending a week of my vacation from my engineering-science job to help my partner run a kid's boot camp in the hopes that some of them will become serious students when they grow up. All that while trying to keep enough energy to provide the same training to the more serious students (yes ATA has some of those too) tonight that I normally provide after 8 hours of engineering desk work.

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#377951 - 04/21/08 07:13 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: jeff_andle]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
... of course the real sacrifice in that boot camp is that I need to teach ssang jeol bhang and I hate weapons with moving parts!
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#377952 - 04/22/08 08:44 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: jeff_andle]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

1- I have not heard of him and am not nearly as well versed in the history or the people associated with that time period as I could be.
2- I seem to recall earlier published ATA histories discussing the early days more and expect that this is a case of only presenting what is relevant to the organization.
3- While the history is fascinating and I agree that many people did not get credit for their contributions, the acrimony between groups and federations needs to end. Concessions are needed on all sides for that to happen.




1- I find that sad that you have not heard of this great figure in TKD's history. What makes it sader is that he was the 1st president of your Federation. In fact, he was for several years. How can they not list him as such? I think most, if not all groups, be it Countries, sports groups, associations, fraternal groups etc, at least list the previous presidents. Couple that with the fact that your group lists GM Lee as an "Eternal GM", I am left to wonder.......
2- How is history not relevant to a group? Especially the history of THE group!
3- I am not talking about acrimony between federations. I know that many people initially followed Ambassador Choi, as he yielded power in a developing Country because of his Liberal Party ties. As such, he was able to help people get set up as TKD teachers. I know many left as it was easier & better for them to issue their own certs & teach their own way. Nothing wrong with that, cutting out the middle man, or becoming your own top man. Good for business & many businesses follow this model. TKD after all, in many senses is a business. Escaping a pyramid scheme & establishing your own, is a sound practice. In addition, many left because of his (the general's) authoritarin, dictatorial style, thinking he was still the Army major-general. No problem with that. Still others left when the WTF came on the scene 7 years later & offered what many seen as a better group. Who can argue with that, as they did attain Olympic status. Some were also forced to leave the ITF, due to real world geo-political pressure exerted by SK's dictator, Park Chung Hee & his successive military govts. This was very unfair.
However, I am not talking about the ATA's withdrawal from the ITF. They were after all an early NGB like group affiliated to the ITF.
I am merely talking about a great & important pioneer of TKD, GM Kang Suh Chong. He was the 1st president of the ATA. He was serving in said capacity for several years. I find it confusing that memebrs of the ATA do not know this fact & somewhat disappointing that he is not credited with this fact, especially when any Korean Master or GM that knows him, holds him in high regard. Remember, when we talk about Mr. Choi, many people will have strong negative feelings towards him. However, I have never heard of any negative talk of GM Kang.

Would you be able to, or would you be feel comfortable in making an inquiry as a member of your group as to why this is the case?

You can feel free to PM me, if you feel that is a more approriate response.

Thanks

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#377953 - 04/22/08 10:29 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

1- I find that sad that you have not heard of this great figure in TKD's history. What makes it sader is that he was the 1st president of your Federation. In fact, he was for several years. How can they not list him as such? I think most, if not all groups, be it Countries, sports groups, associations, fraternal groups etc, at least list the previous presidents. Couple that with the fact that your group lists GM Lee as an "Eternal GM", I am left to wonder.......




His being president of the federation does not fit with anything I know, so I would sincerely appreciate a source reference. Everything I have been taught is that HU Lee trained in excile in Manchuria during the occupation, taught in Korea after the war and was indoctrinated into ITF forms by Gen. Choi before coming to America under the sponsorship of his American student. There simply is no mention of others in this formation. Certainly absence of credit is not absense of need for credit.

Quote:

2- How is history not relevant to a group? Especially the history of THE group!



I hope I didn't go that far! The group is taught the group's history as it is given. Few people look past the history books that they are provided and fewer still learn those. It's the way the world is.

Quote:


3- ... I know many left as it was easier & better for them to issue their own certs & teach their own way. Nothing wrong with that, cutting out the middle man, or becoming your own top man. Good for business & many businesses follow this model. TKD after all, in many senses is a business. Escaping a pyramid scheme & establishing your own, is a sound practice.




I'll never know the reasons but within the context of the history I know it makes sense that relying on a foreign leadership for an increasingly large domestic organization would be troublesome. I am absolutely certain that there were business reasons as well. I will never deny that ATA is highly commercial regardless of the extent to which I will defent its teaching methods and goals (when properly implemented).

Quote:

... However, I am not talking about the ATA's withdrawal from the ITF. They were after all an early NGB like group affiliated to the ITF.
I am merely talking about a great & important pioneer of TKD, GM Kang Suh Chong. He was the 1st president of the ATA. He was serving in said capacity for several years. I find it confusing that memebrs of the ATA do not know this fact & somewhat disappointing that he is not credited with this fact, especially when any Korean Master or GM that knows him, holds him in high regard. Remember, when we talk about Mr. Choi, many people will have strong negative feelings towards him. However, I have never heard of any negative talk of GM Kang.

Would you be able to, or would you be feel comfortable in making an inquiry as a member of your group as to why this is the case?





Had this conversation occurred before the tournament last week I had access to three 7th dan Sr Master candidates and a 6th dan Masters candidate - three of whom I held boards for at their last testing. I know most of them well enough to ask a pointed question. Cheif Master Allemier was there but other than bowing to him and the other Chief Masters, I'd be "a little above my pay grade" asking him. I'll be at ATA World's in late June in Little Rock and will try to remember to ask suitable high ranks.


Quote:

You can feel free to PM me, if you feel that is a more approriate response.

Thanks




If the conversation becomes exclusively of interest to us, we can e-mail -- jandle@atamaine.com. Otherwise, I welcome public discussion of my organization; especially when it is as objective and even keeled as this.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#377954 - 04/22/08 10:34 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: jeff_andle]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

as an ATA school owner that has kept a school open through enormous personal financial losses for my students' benefit and my commitment to their well-being, I personally take unbounded offense that you suggest I (or any of the other owners that I know) are just in it for the money.




Jeff,
Any entrapenuer starting a business can expect to (and should plan to) take losses in first years of business. The fact that you have kept a school open at great expense to yourself is normal, not necessarily noble. You own and operate a business. People that own and operate businesses do so to profit. It may also provide you with enjoyable and meaningful work but it is still a business. There is no need to take offense and sound like a victorian lady who just caught "the vapors". If you get your knickers in a bunch each time some here besmurches the noble aspirations of an ATA franchise owner you are in for a long haul.

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#377955 - 04/22/08 11:12 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: oldman]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
oldman,

that may all well be true and rest assured this is not my first entreprenurial stint. pretty much anyone who does teach does so as a business and are not "just in it for the money". That said, life is a long haul. Anything less is lacking in suitable goals and challenges.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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