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#377916 - 03/21/08 05:52 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Well I was recalling an earlier post on this thread about the relationship with TKD and MMA and something was said along the lines that TKD training would be so-and-so because Karate was like that and the roots of TKD are in Karate.

It seemed rather stange to think that something which had developed so much would automatically be considered to have kept all the "faults".
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#377917 - 03/21/08 08:48 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Well this could just be semantics, but they are Chang Hon patterns, but just not performed in the way that they evolved into. The evolution was done by the founder to help insure that we had a distinct look from TKD's roots in Japanese Karate. I would venture a guess that more people do them this way then the 2002 final version.




You say 2002 is the final version of the patterns. Are you saying that there should be no more updates?
When General Choi said that know he has many General's, did he put the art into their hands? I remember reading that he said he was done with updating TKD and it was up to his senior instructors now. Of course this was in the 90's and we know updates were still being made. But, in any case, has the baton been passed to these seniors and should they keep it as is or look for improvements (updates)?
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#377918 - 03/21/08 05:49 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Mr. Boik:
Update & improvements can & should be welcomed. However in the case of the patterns it was the founder's signature. As such, they should remain as designed by him. JMHO

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#377919 - 03/22/08 09:35 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY


Does that mean even if newer and better patterns emerge?

Do you really believe the general would not want to progress just because the old patterns are his signature?

No offence intended but this sounds to be, well, selfish, vain, and egotistical.

Everything is always, and should always, be in a state of evolution to strive for perfection, not to mention that the rest of the world is always in a state of change so things must evolve and adapt or they risk becoming a non entity and parish. Fighting styles and methods are not exempt from this process and need to adapt also.

Just a thought.


Edited by von1 (03/22/08 09:40 AM)

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#377920 - 03/22/08 05:58 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY Does that mean even if newer and better patterns emerge?
Do you really believe the general would not want to progress just because the old patterns are his signature?
No offence intended but this sounds to be, well, selfish, vain, and egotistical.
Everything is always, and should always, be in a state of evolution to strive for perfection, not to mention that the rest of the world is always in a state of change so things must evolve and adapt or they risk becoming a non entity and parish. Fighting styles and methods are not exempt from this process and need to adapt also. Just a thought.




No offense taken & I think it is a very good thought.

Now one must know the founder & his way &/or methods. Of course he would not want his beloved Art to become stale, stagnant & perish. He was all for progress & constantly strived for it as he devloped his Art for almost 60 years. There has been loads of changes & updates since the 40s, with most of them ending by 1972, even though some major revisions took place after that period.

But getting to my point & your response, which is limited to just the patterns. The 24 Tuls took almost or about 30 years to develop. But they are set in stone, as this was what he felt set his Art apart from the others. As I said, they were his signature. He wrote & spoke extensively on the reason for patterns, the reason for 24 total & the contributions to the world by these Korean patriots, ideals & events that they were named after. It was in his opinion what set us apart. Basically every MA has kicking & punching in their efforts to build SD capability in their charges. A fight is a fight & anything goes when it comes to saving oneself or innocent others. Anything that accomplishes that goal is encouraged & if someone can add a new technique that will aide in SD, then we add it.
As far as other changes, fine as well. New rules to make tournament cometition more whatever, fine. After he passed away, 2 of the ITFs added a 5th category of competition. two others adapted the sparring rules changing the awarding of points & totals. New techniques have been developed & even incorporated into the competition rules. This I think should happen on a continuing scale & I see it happening. Ambassador Choi left many talented masters, promoting 7 to 9th Dan & countless others to 7th & 8th dan all around the world. These individuals can & do adapt to benefit individual students. These leaders come together to form technical or instruction committees to brainstorm & share with the larger ITF or MA, TKD community.

Remember MAs have much in common. Things that seperate us are often emphasis, how we derive power, focus etc. Then some more obvious, but not as different areas, like uniform, belt colors, progression, forms, tournament rules, categories, but in the end, a front snap kick is a front snap kick.

However & this is a big however, his Tuls were what he left us. They are what will become the tradition & are something that sets us apart, not better, just different. That to me is no big deal at all, perserving them as he left them, as Tuls have little to do with how we fight. Therefore saving them, keeps a proud tradition, based on great figures & history & doesn't IMHO interfere with the all important progess & how we help or students grow.

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#377921 - 03/22/08 06:52 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I have to say though, that in the majority of cases I have seen students come back from tournaments really enthused and ready to work that bit harder. I think they are an excellent way of being able to assess your skills compared to others at your same level- particularly for the colour belts, the black belts it's a bit harder- and usually I think students realise that there are other students just as focused on being good martial artists. And hopefully this encourages a student to work harder in order to become the best he can be at every rank.




I just thought of something today, when I was watching 2 yellow belts spar in the school. Now I have to agree with your premise. Tournaments are great experiences & offer great value in many ways to those students that participate for much of the same reasons you stated above.

2 decades ago, 1 of the senior most BBs of my teacher seperated from us & opened their own school. This person was disenchanted with the way the school was being operated, as it had changed over the many years he had been there. This person was a hard core type. They eventually opened their own school. But think about what they were now teaching??????? It was after all, a watered down version of what they left. Why watered down? Well to be considered a top ranked student or an "A" student, one must achieve a 90%. So we can think or see that many students miss about 10% & even forget more when they are no longer in the learning situation.
So this person simply pushed the students to be hard core from day 1. The result was some pretty tuff students. Over time & when I went a seperate way from our teacher, I supplemented my learning with directly joining the ITF & studying under many talented seniors, including the founder. The 1st school we opened, we held pretty fast to the no free sparring till blue belt. We often crossed trained with my friend, who seperated sometime before I did. My students were afraid to fight his. They were ruff & tuff. They did mop the floor with my guys . In fact, I was afraid to even let them fight, as they were not prepared (not prepared on purpose). Now eventually our students became blue belts & we pushed them. As they progressed, they would mop the floor with them . Even their BBs were not a match for our advanced color belts. Now they were still tuffer, but they lacked the arsenal & refinement. Now I have to make it clear, we beat them points wise, in tournament like settings. I still think that back then, if it was a real fight, the tuffer guys were going to win.

Whats my point? Simple! Letting people bang from day 1 does tend to develop bangers. I think it makes sense that the sooner you let people have a go, they will toughen up or leave. However, if they are such junior students, they will tend to latch onto the few basic techniques they 1st learn. Watching these 2 yellow belts bang each other reminded me of this.
So there are really good benefits of fighting from day 1 & entering tournaments early on. That is undisputeable. However, if I had my choice, when looking to develop a lifelong complete BB student, I would toughen them up apart from fighting, give them the tools to fight with & introduce them to sparring step by step.
Again, I make no claim that this way is better etc. especially when one considers different goals.

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#377922 - 03/27/08 02:43 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EFRAIN]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
It seems this is the end of this post lol... I think it was about time...

Well I'll come up with another debational interesting post soon...

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIAL

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#377923 - 03/27/08 03:59 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EFRAIN]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
wait i was about to tell you how you are all wrong LOL

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#377924 - 03/27/08 07:25 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
LOL .... How so buddy lol Got alot more to say about this post lol..specially u man u posted more than anyone else i think... lol gotta check lol..

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#377925 - 03/27/08 08:51 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
Huhmasta Offline
Got sent to the corn field
Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 31
How is TKD loosing popularity? Like over half the world does it. People say it sucks because of other people who make it look bad. Mcdojo's such as the ATA who do it just for the money instead of actual teaching. And most people see SPORT tae kwon do instead of what the full potential of TKD could be. In WTF tae kwon do, you see people who can almost ONLY kick. This gives the impression that they only know how to kick, given the rules don't give you much freedom to punch as often. I can't tell you guys how damn tired and sick I am of mofo's bashing on other martial arts instead of repsecting it for what it is. You don't like because it doesn't fit your style? Who cares, doesn't mean you bash it. TKD can be used for practical uses, it has numberous of leathal moves that you DON'T see in sports because they are too dangerous such as finger tip strikes, knees, elbows, low kicks, etc. You could say it's similar to karate considering it was influenced by karate during japanese occupation of korea. I personally think ITF tae kwon do makes more sense. Their sparring uses both hands and feet just as well as the other. I saw the video the other day showing a fight between a team of ITF dudes against kickboxers. The ITF guys raped them. They even had better boxing combinations than the kickboxers which is kinda sad. But thing again, it's just a video of like ONE set of fights. You can't say tae kwon do hasn't been an influence to the world of Martial Arts. I personaly think that nearly every martial art has had an influence on one another. The high speed kicks and aerial combat of tae kwon do (mostly notably seen on WTF sport TKD) are commonly used by Mixed Martial Artists such as Cung Le. Kickboxers use it as well. So please people, respect martial arts for what they are.

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