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#377596 - 03/01/08 12:19 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
When seeing the term MMA I think mixed martial art. That is an art which is a combination of more than one martial art. I don't generral read the term as M M A (almost a seperate word) meaing UFC style fighting. I think it is useful to clarify what people mean when they use that term.

For me Tae Kwon Do started off as a collection of different techniques from various martial arts avaliable at the time and with some additional bits thrown in. Now it is different than it was but there is nothing wrong with that.

I too am confused by the positives and negatives of the current system. I read maybe in an interview on this site that the money earn by providing the access of the some of the trainning to suburbia allows the Arts to continue on and the serious practioners to run a school and train full time.

It all makes sense. The only thing that doesn't is telling people they are learning self defense when they are clearly are only learning to exercise and have some mental dicipline. This is an issue.

In addition if school owners keep giving out black belts and higher ranks to anyone who pays then you will have this continued loss of respect for the degree.

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#377597 - 03/01/08 01:19 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
FWIW, I tend to define MMA as training with resistance to fight in all ranges, simultaneously. It is not limited to any particular sytem or style. It is more of a philosophy (like JKD), IMHO.
_________________________
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#377598 - 03/01/08 02:34 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:


No I apprecaite your thought out responses & input. They are valid criticisms. Negative information is good for people to be exposed too. It may help their thought process & concepts.
I just don't think you give much credit or highlight that there is more things that TKD can offer, besides an often weak SD.




I think I can see what TKD has to offer.My point at first was that TKD looses face when people make out it has more to offer than it does.
Its SD that works well against another person who does not do TKD or who can fight well at all ranges IMO.
Its a standing striking art with some basic throws and sweeps and locks.
As long as that is understood I dont think it would ever lose face.
Its brings people together,its fun,its sociable.Its tenents and philosophy can go into others areas of life and people can get alot from it.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377599 - 03/01/08 03:40 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I dont know if Iv said 'he is wrong'.I think lots just have a different veiw of what MMA is.It could be the wrong word to use.NHB.Vale Tudo,anything goes.Which to use?

In my view and how we train and the way that MMA has evolved it is the tactical combination of grappling and striking.
It is not putting one art to this or that.So its not doing karate then doing a Judo,for example,in my eyes.
Now I see that if someone sees MMA is adding an art to another then wires can get crossed and points can be missed.

So TKD is a modern art MMA in those terms.I see that.
Though its not tacticaly combining striking and grappling.
If they were aiming at that they didnt get it right.

So ,Stuart,you are saying that TKD trained like originaly?
I dont buy.It doesnt fit with lots which could take up a whole thread and would bring in what others big in the martial arts world were doing.No whole style was doing it,just individuals who broke off on there own,ie Don Bluming combining Judo with Karate,Mas Oyama combining Karate with MT.So lots were looking yet they all mised TKD which was training like that?
They toured yet never showed this to promote it?
MMm I dont know.

The point is is that the combination of grappling and striking ,if they did it is not to that high of a level anyway.So that must be stated for TKD to not lose face.The clinching,for example, on that video was not to a high level,grabbing the shoulders is a big no no.Unless its a nobody.Which if thats said to the students is fine.
So Tkd looses face if,and I get the impression some are,TKD is put on a pedestal beyond what it is.

Dereck admits his is mixed with MMA training though.And he has not got anything against that.Im sure he can see how the drills and sparring crosses over,if he does similar to what I do, in to fighting off an assault.
ITFUNITY trains as the encyclopedia says and has never claimed anything beyond that.Does it mention all training,on the ground?If so my instructor has it and im dissapointed he is not following it,and everyone in TKD in Britain except very very few.That would be HUGE failure.

It does not make sense for some to dismiss MMA training as sport,then say your footage,which you claim is how it was trained and meant to be trained,is great when it resembles it in ways.That point does not matter if you did it before or after it became commercial.It means you would of said ''yes they have caught up with us, that is good training''.You must of been annoyed when Geoff Thompson got so much recognition from his 'Animal days'.
_________________________
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#377600 - 03/01/08 04:55 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I dont know if Iv said 'he is wrong'.I think lots just have a different veiw of what MMA is.It could be the wrong word to use.NHB.Vale Tudo,anything goes.Which to use?



Actually I agree with both of you. ITFunity is right about TKd being an amalgamation of arts, hence making it an 'original' MMA, but I also agree with you in that people see the term and think of UFC or mixing striking and grappling.. both of you are correct

Quote:

In my view and how we train and the way that MMA has evolved it is the tactical combination of grappling and striking.



Thats a could way to decribe modern MMA I think.

Quote:

It is not putting one art to this or that.So its not doing karate then doing a Judo,for example



I think the point was not doing one then the other, but taking parts of both.

Quote:

So ,Stuart,you are saying that TKD trained like originaly?



No, I didnt say that, not as a whole across TKD. there were definatly some instructors training with more than kick/punch.. but not as a main stram thing. Though if we look at TKD as a whole, the manuals, all the techniques, the different training methods etc. then I think that was there.. I also think that the whole -- "make TKD well known and uniformed" -- thing took over.

Quote:

Mas Oyama combining Karate with MT



Never heard that before.. thats interesting.. where did you read that?

Quote:

So lots were looking yet they all mised TKD which was training like that?



I guess it sort of like the bible/Koran.. its how you interet it.. maybe Im just "different/odd/realistic/forward thinking" (delete whats appropriate)

Quote:

They toured yet never showed this to promote it?



Who said that? Who knows what was shown.. it wasnt caught ion camera unfortunatly, but taking all on-comers means they must have dealt with such things, at least on occasion!

Quote:

The point is is that the combination of grappling and striking ,if they did it is not to that high of a level anyway.



This I agree with, even the ground stuff was basic basic basic (and obscure), that said, the same is true of all the styles except those that specifically dealt with that area. Before BJJ.. ground was judos realm.. times have changed, things have evolved, we know more than they did back then.. so TKd evolves that area as well, but it was there to a dedree, even if we now look back and see it as basic.

Quote:

So that must be stated for TKD to not lose face.



What is it with the losing face thing!! TKd has lost face due to the Mcdojos and belt factories.. I dont think saying it had something, but it was dam basic makes any difference!

Quote:

The clinching,for example, on that video was not to a high level,grabbing the shoulders is a big no no.



Whatever.. as i said, it was simply some guys doing tradtional sparring.. what they did is down to them, it wasnt trying to impress anyone or make a technical film, just someone had a camera there that night and wasnt training due to an injury.. hence the video.

Quote:

So Tkd looses face if,and I get the impression some are,TKD is put on a pedestal beyond what it is.



Sorry, you lost me there... what are you talking about!!

Quote:

Does it mention all training,on the ground?If so my instructor has it and im dissapointed he is not following it,and everyone in TKD in Britain except very very few.That would be HUGE failure.



Yes it does actually, though as Ive said above, its basic.. but the knowledge that was there back then to make it more than basic I dont think was abundent enough! Its easy to judge 60 years on.. you should speak wth your instructor then!

Quote:

It does not make sense for some to dismiss MMA training as sport



It really depend son the mindset of the instructor/student IMO. Problem in, from what Ive seen, most MMA cubs train ground 99% of the time.. and thats the last place you would want to be in a stret fight.. hence the "sport" anology many make. Personally i can see its ebnefits for SD if trained right!

Quote:

then say your footage,which you claim is how it was trained and meant to be trained,is great when it resembles it in ways.



Sorry, lost me again. Are you having a hard time with the fact that we trained similar to that video before MMA was even heard of.. sorry, but thats just the facts.. doesnt belittle MMA in anyway, in fact IMO opinion, MMA has kind of refined stuff in that area.

Quote:

That point does not matter if you did it before or after it became commercial.It means you would of said ''yes they have caught up with us, that is good training''



Personally I dont care either way, MMA is fine, TKd is what i do and have to teach my students... so I do it to the best of my ability with the tools I have.. Im no rogue to jump ship just cos MMA is the new big thing! Ill stand by TKD but at the same time I understand its weakness, but also do what I need to to correct that. You & others can debate than on a forum.. as is it, is it not TKD.. I dont care.. my students are my priority.

Quote:

You must of been annoyed when Geoff Thompson got so much recognition from his 'Animal days'.



No. Geoff is excellant and a genius.. those that dont listen to what he has to say are simply ignorant.. why the f##k would I be annoyed.. im more annoy that you would assume such a thing. BTW, geoff is trad karate you know or did he have an insight into MMA before it was born.. that must annoy you

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377601 - 03/01/08 05:28 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

You must of been annoyed when Geoff Thompson got so much recognition from his 'Animal days'.



BTW.. Animal day was a totally different concept. We were simply using as much from the TKD reportoire as possible, with safety, Geoffs Animal Day session was fighting from bad positions, being caight unawares and of course, all full contact! Pre-MMA as well


Geoffs a pioneer... I have nothing but admiration for him!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377602 - 03/01/08 06:17 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

I dont know if Iv said 'he is wrong'.I think lots just have a different veiw of what MMA is.It could be the wrong word to use.NHB.Vale Tudo,anything goes.Which to use?

In my view and how we train and the way that MMA has evolved it is the tactical combination of grappling and striking.
It is not putting one art to this or that.So its not doing karate then doing a Judo,for example,in my eyes.
Now I see that if someone sees MMA is adding an art to another then wires can get crossed and points can be missed.

So TKD is a modern art MMA in those terms.I see that.
Though its not tacticaly combining striking and grappling.
If they were aiming at that they didnt get it right.

So ,Stuart,you are saying that TKD trained like originaly?
I dont buy.It doesnt fit with lots which could take up a whole thread and would bring in what others big in the martial arts world were doing.No whole style was doing it,just individuals who broke off on there own,ie Don Bluming combining Judo with Karate,Mas Oyama combining Karate with MT.So lots were looking yet they all mised TKD which was training like that?
They toured yet never showed this to promote it?
MMm I dont know.

The point is is that the combination of grappling and striking ,if they did it is not to that high of a level anyway.So that must be stated for TKD to not lose face.The clinching,for example, on that video was not to a high level,grabbing the shoulders is a big no no.Unless its a nobody.Which if thats said to the students is fine.
So Tkd looses face if,and I get the impression some are,TKD is put on a pedestal beyond what it is.

Dereck admits his is mixed with MMA training though.And he has not got anything against that.Im sure he can see how the drills and sparring crosses over,if he does similar to what I do, in to fighting off an assault.
ITFUNITY trains as the encyclopedia says and has never claimed anything beyond that.Does it mention all training,on the ground?If so my instructor has it and im dissapointed he is not following it,and everyone in TKD in Britain except very very few.That would be HUGE failure.

It does not make sense for some to dismiss MMA training as sport,then say your footage,which you claim is how it was trained and meant to be trained,is great when it resembles it in ways.That point does not matter if you did it before or after it became commercial.It means you would of said ''yes they have caught up with us, that is good training''.You must of been annoyed when Geoff Thompson got so much recognition from his 'Animal days'.




MMA does not mean just "mixed Martial Arts." It does not mean "Any Two or More Martial Arts Mixed Together."

MMA is specifically referring to a mix of functional striking, grappling, and submission arts operating in all three ranges - stand up, clinch and grappling.
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St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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#377603 - 03/01/08 08:43 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: janxspirit]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Yes, I believe the term MMA has evolved to the point where it defines a blend of grappling, striking, submissions and etc. There are some schools that advertise such as; "You don't have to mix martial arts to know how to fight like one".

What does it take to make TKD credible? What's the root of the problem? Do we remove all the Mcdojos? Why not just train our practitioners for MMA and send 'em out to UFC, Pride etc. and call it day?

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#377604 - 03/01/08 11:41 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

But schools that call themselves MAs, are concentrating more on child rearing, especially in areas of discipline, self control, respect & weight control. Now that is not MAs, but a component,



Except the child rearing bit! Thats a parents job!Stuart




Yes couldn't agree more. But parents come into the DoJang often, asking for help with just that. I think parents care less about SD, kicking & punching, then just having junior say yes sir & thank you, as well as focusing better.

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#377605 - 03/01/08 11:47 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY trains as the encyclopedia says and has never claimed anything beyond that.Does it mention all training,on the ground?If so my instructor has it and im dissapointed he is not following it,and everyone in TKD in Britain except very very few.That would be HUGE failure.





Yes, but remember the key to Chang Hon under the ITF founder was to practice with realism. The most important physical part of TKD is SD. So, when following the instructions to use realism, how does one NOT follow through on the ground, if that is where the fight ends?

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