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#377826 - 03/13/08 01:28 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

When it comes down to defending your life, I honestly think that we should not be too dogmatic about whether this is a TKD move, or a Kenpo move, or a BJJ move. If it works, if it lets you escape, protect yourself, and get home in one piece, then shouldn't that be all that really matters?




Yes & the history of fighting arts is fuzzy, so who even gets credit for development, where & when, makes the point of arguing it, silly.

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#377827 - 03/13/08 01:36 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Now having said all this, I will agree that I've witnessed many matches where the fighters do nothing but bounce for a minute, throw a couple of kicks, clinch, and bounce some more. Having been a competitor, a coach, and a spectator, I can understand the frustration due to the apparent lack of action.
However, there's a different perspective as a fighter. First, I should point out that you're more likely to see more "action" at the lower levels of competition (i.e. color belts, novice players, young children, local tournaments, etc), where the fighters will tend to attack indiscriminately, and try to win the match based on sheer volume of kicks thrown. However, high level Olympic TKD fighters have mastered the art of the counterattack like no other MA that I know of. If you attack indisciminately or with poor timing in O-TKD, a good fighter will make you pay for it dearly. So while it can be frustrating to spectators that O-TKD fighters aren't more active, from the perspective of the fighter there's good warrant to be picky about your shots.
The reason why this is less of an issue in other combative sports such as boxing or MMA is because points aren't an issue. In boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, or Kyokushin, it doesn't matter if you take hits as long as you can remain standing. These are games of attrition -- can you make your oppoent fall before you do? So rather than avoiding getting hit and emphasizing counters, these sports teach you to take as much punishment as you can while dishing out some of your own.




Great points, very much worthy of repeating & something I am not sure that everyone realizes. I didn't & do now, in part to forums such as these & keeping an open mind.

The dynamics of what & why you do something. Strange, it closely reflects the 2nd training secret of TKD as laid down by our founder:
undertand the purpose & method

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#377828 - 03/13/08 03:09 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Interesting discussion on the sport aspects from the original post by badachagi.. I can see both sides of the coin in that all the extras that training this ways brings has immense benefits (stong kicks, fitness etc), but others also have a major point as well, in that "you fight how you train" .. these are the instinctive reactions that kick in when under pressure and even though many clubs do hosinsul or similar techniques, its different to fighting when instinctualness would kick in.

Just my 2 cents worth as Im a strong beliver in the fight as you train motto.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377829 - 03/13/08 03:41 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Interesting discussion on the sport aspects from the original post by badachagi.. I can see both sides of the coin in that all the extras that training this ways brings has immense benefits (stong kicks, fitness etc), but others also have a major point as well, in that "you fight how you train" .. these are the instinctive reactions that kick in when under pressure and even though many clubs do hosinsul or similar techniques, its different to fighting when instinctualness would kick in.

Just my 2 cents worth as Im a strong beliver in the fight as you train motto.

Stuart




Yes, but if by "fight" you mean SD, then really, NOBODY trains as they would really fight, because your training partners would all be dead or maimed. When you think about it, all SD training in most schools takes place in a controlled environment (padded floors, instructor/referee/coach supervision, limited set of rules and compliance -- i.e. if I tap, you'll get go, I won't hit you full force in the throat, etc). Real SD situations are inherently unpredictable and uncontrolled.

I don't know any O-TKD coach or competitor who claims that what they do is how you should fight to defend yourself. We recognize that O-TKD is a sport. So if O-TKD training is all you have, then yes, you will be limited when it comes to SD. But the reality is that few O-TKD fighters know ONLY O-TKD. The top athletes in the USA, even though now may specialize and train exclusively for sport, at some point originally came from a traditional school that taught forms, basics, SD, etc.

Now with regards to "instincts" kicking in during SD, I would argue that that is precisely the reason why a sport TKD fighter would NOT fight like the way they compete. Yes, reaction and speed is important in O-TKD, but there's also a tremendous amount of strategy and thinking going on. In a real SD situation, I don't think most O-TKD fighters would be playing the chess match in their heads.

I've seen TKDists trained in Olympic fighting get into real fights. I can assure you that they do not fight like they do in the ring.

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#377830 - 03/13/08 03:48 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I was going to reply along similiar lines. Recently I had some blue & above practice throwing with the mats out as well always do. Then I added that they person being thrown should not assume the position, but rather try & punch the thrower 1st. The thrower had to block or get hit & then position the attacker in order to throw. Next I told the attacker that after the initial punch, do not comply or go along, fight the throw as best you can.
RESULT: Not one could throw the person. Some managed to get the attacker to the ground, but that is because of either their size or grapple/wrestling skills, as we do fight from stand up to the floor already when FREE sparring.

So I think there is truth to both sides of the debate. However what is more important is to be open AND train under realistic conditions, which of course was the direction given by the founder that was often not heard or rarely followed. So in the end, it goes down to the school & teacher.

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#377831 - 03/13/08 04:09 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Interesting discussion on the sport aspects from the original post by badachagi.. I can see both sides of the coin in that all the extras that training this ways brings has immense benefits (stong kicks, fitness etc), but others also have a major point as well, in that "you fight how you train" .. these are the instinctive reactions that kick in when under pressure and even though many clubs do hosinsul or similar techniques, its different to fighting when instinctualness would kick in.

Just my 2 cents worth as Im a strong beliver in the fight as you train motto.

Stuart




Stuart



With respect (my 2 cents) you are correct fight like you train,

however, your mistake is in the fact that competition is not the complete training package, it is only a piece of the training package. This is where the conflict arises. You assume that competitors only train to compete. Most WTF people will only compete at the lower levels, out side of competition our training is no different than yours, we compete different we train similar. I assume you are referring to the very small percentage of schools that only train for sport.
Most participating WTF schools do not fit this bill, our training is much more dynamic, involving SD, 1,2, and 3 step sparring, forms, weapons etc. On top of that normally the fighters that rise to Olympic status fighting have already had much of this training probably at a very young age. For one reason or another they are drawn to compete. This is why it is ridiculas for people to say that Olympic competitors lack SD, most already have trained and still train in it to some degree, plus now they have these incredible other skills.

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#377832 - 03/13/08 04:55 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Stuart A



I offer an example
Here is what I mean by many Olympic competitors already had the training plus these incredible other skills, Olympic training.

This man was the Korean national champ between 1965 and 1968 and a U.S. combative instructor for 18 years. He was a combative instructor befor he was champ. He did not just train for competition like soooo many others do not just train for competition. The competition is only one component of training.

http://www.kilstkdonline.com/grandmaster1.html


Edited by von1 (03/13/08 04:59 PM)

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#377833 - 03/13/08 08:35 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes, but if by "fight" you mean SD, then really, NOBODY trains as they would really fight, because your training partners would all be dead or maimed.



Actually, I class SD as the phase before fighting.. however, there is a reason I said I can see both sides and that is because I know of a famous UK guy.. a points fighter no less, who when attacked used what came naturally to defend himself.. mainly his superfast reactions.. those of a certain time training in the UK might well remmber the news, as he struck the first guy (there were 2 or 3) and KO'd him. Now, that one reason why I see value in the original post, but also why I said "you fight like you train".. see he trained with punches, hands up, punches with speed and when he reacted he did what he did naturally and simply got the target spot on & KO'd the guy. When I was refering to "instinctually" my point was really concerning the placement of the arms.. would they go up or down.. now I know the point is debatable.. but I hope you see where Im coming from.

I know many WTF schools, and though many state here they do SD this and that etc. (which I agree with) I know just as many that dont.. more in fact. But, the shoe fits both camps, as I know just as many ITF based schools that dont either.. so Im not having a go at WTF'ers or anything.


Quote:

I don't know any O-TKD coach or competitor who claims that what they do is how you should fight to defend yourself.



Im not saying they do, only that habits form.

Quote:

The top athletes in the USA, even though now may specialize and train exclusively for sport, at some point originally came from a traditional school that taught forms, basics, SD, etc.



TBH, it makes no difference, unless you are actively training it.. skills are lost and replaced with others.

Quote:

Now with regards to "instincts" kicking in during SD, I would argue that that is precisely the reason why a sport TKD fighter would NOT fight like the way they compete. Yes, reaction and speed is important in O-TKD, but there's also a tremendous amount of strategy and thinking going on. In a real SD situation, I don't think most O-TKD fighters would be playing the chess match in their heads.



Sorry, that doesnt quite make sense.. if we instinctively do what we do most.. then in the heat of the moment instincts will make us fight how we fight most.

Quote:

I've seen TKDists trained in Olympic fighting get into real fights. I can assure you that they do not fight like they do in the ring.



Well I dont actually believe they would, what Im saying is the habits formed would take charge.. so in effect they would (likely) kick first and the defence may go down.. I say "may" as of course Im generalizing..

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (03/13/08 08:45 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377834 - 03/13/08 08:38 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I was going to reply along similiar lines. Recently I had some blue & above practice throwing with the mats out as well always do. Then I added that they person being thrown should not assume the position, but rather try & punch the thrower 1st. The thrower had to block or get hit & then position the attacker in order to throw. Next I told the attacker that after the initial punch, do not comply or go along, fight the throw as best you can.
RESULT: Not one could throw the person. Some managed to get the attacker to the ground, but that is because of either their size or grapple/wrestling skills, as we do fight from stand up to the floor already when FREE sparring.

So I think there is truth to both sides of the debate. However what is more important is to be open AND train under realistic conditions, which of course was the direction given by the founder that was often not heard or rarely followed. So in the end, it goes down to the school & teacher.




Theres a few flaws in that type of training.. firstly the attacker has full knowledge what the defender is trying to achieve - anyone with a little knowledge of throws can stop the average student throwing them even without punching, secondly the defender is limited to only being allowed to throw.. i bet if you evened up the odds and said botyh can punch & throw.. people will topple!

No offence meant, I just felt its a bad example of reacting under pressure when the rules are stil stacked in one persons favour and hence doesnt prove what its meant to.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377835 - 03/13/08 08:43 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

however, your mistake is in the fact that competition is not the complete training package, it is only a piece of the training package.



Well I may well be wrong.. but from what ive seen in the UK and abroad, for many its the largest piece of the training package!

Quote:

This is where the conflict arises. You assume that competitors only train to compete. Most WTF people will only compete at the lower levels, out side of competition our training is no different than yours, we compete different we train similar.



No.. I know WTF schools that vary their syllabus.. so do not assume that, the post was in reference to the benefits that WTF sport sparring can provide.. I simply agreed and have pointed out some negatives that it may also provide. The post talked of superfast and powerful kicks gained from Olympic type training to a reasonibly high level, therefore it stands to reason most of the training time is devoted to this.. which includes ingraining the bad habits I have pointed out.

Quote:

I assume you are referring to the very small percentage of schools that only train for sport.



No.. not really, it was basically in reference to the post as I said.

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (03/13/08 08:47 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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