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#377816 - 03/12/08 12:46 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Badachagi:
You are right again. IMHO the main reason why TKD gets attacked so much is simply because it is the world's most popular MA. So they have more targets. Combine that with the McDojangs, who BTW are not limited to any 1 type of TKD & that fact that SK educates teachers in an academic setting, which for many goes against the grain, you just have a lot of targets. But you make a great point.

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#377817 - 03/12/08 12:50 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260

badachagi



Yes this is a sore spot for me that is why I have been so vocal, probably boarding on obnoxiously vocal. I appreciate your comments on the subject because you are very informed and a great key board communicator which I am not.

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#377818 - 03/13/08 09:33 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260




OK, It is time for me to shut up and practice more put up.

We as TKD practitioners need to realize that have more in common than we don"t. Would like to share a small tidbit of what I mean.

While reading this just substitute the word of sport for fight or SD you will see what I mean. This is just one small example of what I mean by things in common, there are many more.


http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showexcerpt.cfm?excerpt_id=4042

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#377819 - 03/13/08 09:52 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Absolutely I agree on the close relationship between sport, fighting and self defense. I think I have stated many times on the forum that in my mind, the mental processes involved in ANY sport are extremely similar to those involved in fighting.

I will try and make myself clearer: In theory, I have no problem with Olympic sparring rules- I don't think they are a bad thing per se. However, I do think that the rules are restrictive to such an extent that the sparring is much less useful than other types of sparring. Honestly, I think the simple addition of punches to the head would improve the sparring no end and I would be happy to do it. So, it is a small criticism that I have, but I think it damages my enjoyment of WTF TKD, when I have trained it(and yes I have done at 2 clubs for short periods), almost completely.

But certainly I think all TKD practitioners share much in common, although even different TKD schools under the same style have many differences.

Actually, a very interesting experience for me has been to train ITF TKD in Poland (Warsaw), I was amazed at how similar the training was, even though my previous training was in England. I was actually really pleased to see that even in a completely different country where I am honestly not brilliant at the language, the training was similar enough for me to instantly feel right at home.

I wonder if this is the case for WTF practitioners moving to a different school, is there more variance? The two schools I have trained at were very similar indeed, but they both were very upfront about the fact that they were training purely for sport reasons.

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#377820 - 03/13/08 11:03 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quoat
I will try and make myself clearer: In theory, I have no problem with Olympic sparring rules- I don't think they are a bad thing per se. However, I do think that the rules are restrictive to such an extent that the sparring is much less useful than other types of sparring. Honestly, I think the simple addition of punches to the head would improve the sparring no end and I would be happy to do it. So, it is a small criticism that I have, but I think it damages my enjoyment of WTF TKD, when I have trained it(and yes I have done at 2 clubs for short periods), almost completely

End quote


I agree that adding punches would make for better spectatorship most definitely, but I can not see this working due to the fact that we spare full contact. Just add take downs and your left with MMA. Not to mention that the majority of people who train with WTF affiliated clubs use the sparing as a training tool, they do not plan on competing in the Olympic"s
I have never trained at a pure sport facility I couldn't even tell you where one is, though I know they are out there. A valid argument can be made for adding punches to the head this is where your individual club training should kick in and I hope instructors are training for this because this is where it all comes together. If instructors are not training their student to put it together shame on them! shame on them! shame on them!

I would most definitely agree watching many of these matches is monotones, however I really am not convinced that for the majority, the goal is entertainment other than the olympics, and it fails miserably as entertainment.

This I feel causes many non WTF to be embarrassed and resentful to be associated with it.

I would even concede that personally I have mixed feelings as to TKD sparring being in the Olympics because this has caused much confusion as to what TKD is really about even among us that do it.

The Olympics has had a dual affect on TKD. It has exposed it to the world helping to raise awareness, and it has confused and divided TKD practitioners. The sparing has really confused people, and the only people who understand and appreciate the value of it are the ones that do it. Most every one else spectators and non WTF are going, whaaaaaa! This is understandable.


Edited by von1 (03/13/08 11:38 AM)

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#377821 - 03/13/08 12:30 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

We as TKD practitioners need to realize that have more in common than we don"t. Would like to share a small tidbit of what I mean. While reading this just substitute the word of sport for fight or SD you will see what I mean. This is just one small example of what I mean by things in common, there are many more.




I could not agree more. I have been saying this for so long & get so frustrated when I see all the bickering back & forth by students who really have in common then that which seperates them. I will go my usually 1 step further, we have more things in common with even other MAs, than that which makes us different.

Now since we are not the general public, in the sense that we are martial artists, we tend to see the differences, as that is what makes us unique in the training we have chosen. So we highlight the differences to show we are different, maybe some saying better or whatever. Just remember that when pointing your finger at others, 4 of your fingers are pointing back at you.

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#377822 - 03/13/08 12:37 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Honestly, I think the simple addition of punches to the head would improve the sparring no end and I would be happy to do it. So, it is a small criticism that I have,




I see your point & share your concern somewhat. However, please keep in mind that if they never outlawed punching, the dynamic kicking & revolutionary speed, stepping etc probably never would have developed or evolved to today. Most think this advancement in kicking is benefical in adding to the arsenal of fighters. The key probably is to supplement your training as I am sure most of us do with any shortcoming our sparring rules have, as they all we have them.


Quote:

But certainly I think all TKD practitioners share much in common, although even different TKD schools under the same style have many differences.




Exactly!

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#377823 - 03/13/08 01:02 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

Honestly, I think the simple addition of punches to the head would improve the sparring no end and I would be happy to do it. So, it is a small criticism that I have,




I see your point & share your concern somewhat. However, please keep in mind that if they never outlawed punching, the dynamic kicking & revolutionary speed, stepping etc probably never would have developed or evolved to today. Most think this advancement in kicking is benefical in adding to the arsenal of fighters. The key probably is to supplement your training as I am sure most of us do with any shortcoming our sparring rules have, as they all we have them.


Quote:

But certainly I think all TKD practitioners share much in common, although even different TKD schools under the same style have many differences.




Exactly!




With respect to MAs having much in common, over the years I've noticed that when MAs engage in fighting/sparring, the less restrictive the rule sets, the more variety of techniques (i.e. striking, clinch fighting, takedowns and ground fighting) are used, and one begins to notice that the arts begin to look more similar that not.

For example, there are certain techniques you see in many different arts. I've seen the arm bar that was popularized in BJJ also used in judo, hapkido, and sambo. Many of the throws in judo I've seen in hapkido and sanda/sanshou. And just about every striking art has something like the roundhouse kick.

When it comes down to defending your life, I honestly think that we should not be too dogmatic about whether this is a TKD move, or a Kenpo move, or a BJJ move. If it works, if it lets you escape, protect yourself, and get home in one piece, then shouldn't that be all that really matters?

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#377824 - 03/13/08 01:24 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quoat
I will try and make myself clearer: In theory, I have no problem with Olympic sparring rules- I don't think they are a bad thing per se. However, I do think that the rules are restrictive to such an extent that the sparring is much less useful than other types of sparring. Honestly, I think the simple addition of punches to the head would improve the sparring no end and I would be happy to do it. So, it is a small criticism that I have, but I think it damages my enjoyment of WTF TKD, when I have trained it(and yes I have done at 2 clubs for short periods), almost completely

End quote


I agree that adding punches would make for better spectatorship most definitely, but I can not see this working due to the fact that we spare full contact. Just add take downs and your left with MMA. Not to mention that the majority of people who train with WTF affiliated clubs use the sparing as a training tool, they do not plan on competing in the Olympic"s
I have never trained at a pure sport facility I couldn't even tell you where one is, though I know they are out there. A valid argument can be made for adding punches to the head this is where your individual club training should kick in and I hope instructors are training for this because this is where it all comes together. If instructors are not training their student to put it together shame on them! shame on them! shame on them!

I would most definitely agree watching many of these matches is monotones, however I really am not convinced that for the majority, the goal is entertainment other than the olympics, and it fails miserably as entertainment.

This I feel causes many non WTF to be embarrassed and resentful to be associated with it.

I would even concede that personally I have mixed feelings as to TKD sparring being in the Olympics because this has caused much confusion as to what TKD is really about even among us that do it.

The Olympics has had a dual affect on TKD. It has exposed it to the world helping to raise awareness, and it has confused and divided TKD practitioners. The sparing has really confused people, and the only people who understand and appreciate the value of it are the ones that do it. Most every one else spectators and non WTF are going, whaaaaaa! This is understandable.




Regarding Olympic TKD as a spectator sport, I think the WTF has actually made great strides in making competition more viewer friendly. Some specific examples:

1) Fewer and simpler referee hand signals and gestures
2) Electronic scoreboards so points can be seen in real time
3) Increased penalties for stalling tactics (falling, avoiding fighting, going out of bounds)
4) Differential scoring that gives more points for head kicks and standing eight counts.

In addition, various "pro" leagues have experiments with additional rules to keep the action going, such as a "kick clock" (similar to the shot clock in basketball), and additional points for jumping, flying, or spinning kicks to encourage more dynamic techniques.

There is also talk of moving to electronic chest protectors and head gear, so that subjective human judging is taken out of the picture completely. One of the consequences that has been implied is that with an electronic chest protector, punches to the body will be scored with much more frequency (since the hardware only registers points based on force, and won't be able to discern what kind of technique results in the force).

Now having said all this, I will agree that I've witnessed many matches where the fighters do nothing but bounce for a minute, throw a couple of kicks, clinch, and bounce some more. Having been a competitor, a coach, and a spectator, I can understand the frustration due to the apparent lack of action.

However, there's a different perspective as a fighter. First, I should point out that you're more likely to see more "action" at the lower levels of competition (i.e. color belts, novice players, young children, local tournaments, etc), where the fighters will tend to attack indiscriminately, and try to win the match based on sheer volume of kicks thrown. However, high level Olympic TKD fighters have mastered the art of the counterattack like no other MA that I know of. If you attack indisciminately or with poor timing in O-TKD, a good fighter will make you pay for it dearly. Additionally, subjective judging sometimes results in exchanges where both fighters should have scored, but only one actually is awarded the point (because things moved too fast, because the judge didn't see, etc). So given these things, from a strategic point of view, you want to avoid attacking unless 1) you know you are going to score, and 2) you know you won't get scored on. So while it can be frustrating to spectators that O-TKD fighters aren't more active, from the perspective of the fighter there's good warrant to be picky about your shots.

The reason why this is less of an issue in other combative sports such as boxing or MMA is because points aren't an issue. In boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, or Kyokushin, it doesn't matter if you take hits as long as you can remain standing. These are games of attrition -- can you make your oppoent fall before you do? So rather than avoiding getting hit and emphasizing counters, these sports teach you to take as much punishment as you can while dishing out some of your own.


Edited by badachagi (03/13/08 01:28 PM)

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#377825 - 03/13/08 01:25 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I agree that adding punches would make for better spectatorship most definitely, but I can not see this working due to the fact that we spare full contact. Just add take downs and your left with MMA.......A valid argument can be made for adding punches to the head this is where your individual club training should kick in and I hope instructors are training for this because this is where it all comes together. If instructors are not training their student to put it together shame on them!




1st I'll leave the spectator aspect out of it. Now we again must look to history to see why this happened. They made any hand techniques to the head against the rules so they could be distinguished from the hated Japanese & their Karate. This resulted in the development of revolutionary kicking/stepping which can now be added to a fighters arsenal.
Now we could add hand technique strikes above the shoulders. But that would change the dynamics. We could require that the hands not be full contact. We could allow sweeps, which were, before the JiDoKwan changed it, as well as takedowns. We could give points for takedowns or sweeps, successful mounting etc. All this would create a different dynamic. This in turn would result in a new direction & emphasis on training & developing. IMHO a good teacher will look the individual student, their strengths & weaknesses, looking to build & correct using all aspects of their Art, but also realizing the inherent shortcomings of their Art &/or training methods.

Quote:

I would even concede that personally I have mixed feelings as to TKD sparring being in the Olympics because this has caused much confusion as to what TKD is really about even among us that do it.
The Olympics has had a dual affect on TKD. It has exposed it to the world helping to raise awareness, and it has confused and divided TKD practitioners.




I agree, as I have always had mixed feelings as well. There are certain advantages for both style & player, funding, attention etc. We, the ITF have tried hard to get into the Olympics & have basically failed. I think that when we failed, we started badmouthing the same thing we fought so hard to gain. I see how a MA or how SD aspects can suffer, as a consequence of earning Olympic status. Now, as I see 1 of the ITFs(NK) is making strides towards merging or Olympic access, I am concerned. As a purist I am torn. NOTE: The fact that these merger & inculsion talks are progressing is due to politics. The reason the ITF-NK is having success now & the ITF in the past did not, is due to the support of the NK govt, to counter the support the SK govt gave to the WTF AND the must changed geo-political climate in Korea. That is another reason why we must look at history if we are to gain a better sense of where we are, how we got here & how can we best move forward.
This causes me more concern, as I think the NK govt has less concerns than do with having my beloved Art maintained.

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