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#377806 - 03/11/08 10:26 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Maybe I have become hypersensitive to certain comments, I am working on that.




Okay, feel free to kick me for this unsolicited advice.

I have always been a proud member of the ITF. For many years, I listened to the hard feelings that many ITF leaders, including the founder had towards the brutal SK dictatorships, the KTA, the Kukkiwon, the WTF & Dr. Kim Un Yong. I came to hold resentment, without knowing the whole story. I still don't, but have educated myself through extensive research & am finally getting a grasp on this very complicated situation.
Now over the years there has been so much mud slinging by both sides that it has started to look like opposite political parties fighting for elective office. As a result, the already complicated situation is made worse by the accumulation of tons of mud. Now what we often see is that the ITF is always right or wrong or the WTF is always right or wrong. Of course depending on your personal perspective. Now with TKD, like most everything in life, the truth usually lies somewhere in between. I think much of this will be helped along when Dr. Kimm He Young releases his long awaited book on TKD history which has been years in the making. You will see that he documents much of what Ambassador Choi says, but also corrects claims that are not supported by verifiable facts. Now Dr. Kimm is an an academic scholar, with an earned PhD in history. This college professor is a neutral historian who has traveled extensively to research his work. He backs up his assertions with evidence. However the political climate has changed in SK. They (KCIA) once tried to prevent his doctoral dissertation from being published, because of its connection he drew to Japan for KMAs. WOW! Vol 1, is available, but it deals with hapkido. Vol 2 on TKD is due out by the end of 2009.

Now why do I say this? We must put aside our natural inclinations & look for the truth. That is all that matters. BTW, none of it will affect our training, but it will allow for going forward in a more positive way, which we can hope will benefit all, regardless of affiliation.

Now you Von1, I think have been very fair in the give & take. You have certainly made me aware of things I was weak in. You seem to be open to listening. I thank you for reading my long winded posts. So you may be a bit sensitive & that is natural, given all the bickering & complaining by ITF KoolAide drinkers. They often don't have it right & just add fuel to the fire.

Now when I enjoyed my cold glasses of that KoolAide, I thought WTF or the Kukkiwon were karate, not TKD. Why? The founder said so. It was clear to me that we were doing TKD. Since they were not doing what we were doing, how could they be TKD?

Here is what happened. My research, with nuetral sources as well as from both sides led me to understand the WTF is not Karate. They took rules developed in the early 60s by primarily the JiDo Kwan, which promoted kicking, to make a link to TaeKyon & disallowed in the rules techniques associated with Japanese karate. This brillance led to a revolutionary kicking style, so different from karate. Now did they have things in common with karate? yes! But so does the ITF. In fact all MAs have things in common. The base or roots of TKD come mostly from karate. However, it is ridiculous for anyone to say that the WTF is karate & not TKD, when millions, the largest group calls it that & the IOC agrees.

So, continue with your open mind. It only leads to learning, often providing support for your arguement, as well as allowing you additional information to consider when rendering your decision or opinion.

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#377807 - 03/11/08 10:36 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I don"t think I am communicating this properly. You need to keep in mind that the sparing is not suppose to be real fighting, it is only a tool, a tool to perfect kicking, foot work, timing, speed, distance, power, stamina, ect. I am not talking about the 1% that are training to compete in Olympics.
The real life SD or fight training is done outside of competition putting the hand techniques together with kicking just like you do. The sparing rules serve to isolated an aspect of our training to become better kickers than we would have been if we had to worry about being punched while working on kicking. We train probably just like you do hands and all we just compete using different rules to isolate the kicking part. This is where the confusion is, people do not understand that we also train hands up when not competing.




I agree & think our (ITF) process or rules are similiar & present similiar disadvantages. It is up to the rest of the training to supplement any weaknesses from tournament rules sparring may bring.

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#377808 - 03/11/08 10:41 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY



As always, I enjoy communicating with you and as always, I learn more with every exchange. I especially got a kick out of the reference to kool aid drinkers and the history lesson was nice too.

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#377809 - 03/11/08 10:44 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

This is news to me. So you can chop or knife hand the throat? with full power? How would competitors survive? no offence but I am having difficulty buying this and have never witnessed this in any competitions, regardless of the organization or art.




Yes & no. Yes, target area is the head & neck at the front & sides, but not the back. All hand attacks are allowed, but full contact is not. The technique must be executed properly with power, speed & focus, but must be controlled on the target. Now what does controlled mean? Who knows & from my experience it is usually defined by the host & in the case of WCs, the ITF UMpire & Tournament Committees. I have seen almost anything goes blood baths, to very strict attention to the level of contact.

Now obviously any limitations of rules can have an adverse affect on real street SD skills, as the training is different. I have seen many ITF schools just do tournament rules sparring & fake come along hoosinsul routines. How can that help? A bit I am sure, but with many downsides which can build false security & many more bad habits.

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#377810 - 03/11/08 10:57 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY


This last explanation makes more sense. The problem with us using hand techniques for competition is that we sparr full contact so if hands were allowed people might die, can you imagine if the rules stated full contact kicking but minimal contact hands? what a nightmare for competitor trying stay aware of all that so they don"t kill people. And we can punch full power just not to head. Some of these punches hurt and can darn near knock the wind out of you even with the protective gear. This would be just too much to control.


Edited by von1 (03/11/08 11:16 PM)

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#377811 - 03/11/08 11:35 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260

ITFUNITY

quote
I agree & think our (ITF) process or rules are similar & present similar disadvantages. It is up to the rest of the training to supplement any weaknesses from tournament rules sparring may bring.

thank you! this is all I am trying to say but obviously not doing a very good job of it.

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#377812 - 03/12/08 03:42 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Wow, this thread is blossoming since the MMA business died down. Keep it coming guys, this is great.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377813 - 03/12/08 12:27 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY

quote
I agree & think our (ITF) process or rules are similar & present similar disadvantages. It is up to the rest of the training to supplement any weaknesses from tournament rules sparring may bring.


I do not wish to leave the impression that I do not see problems and/or weaknesses in our methods. I am only attempting to share another side that frankly is not discussed enough on this forum.

If one still does not see the value in what we do that is just fine. To be honest there were many times I questioned these methods myself, I stuck with it, learned more about it, began to notice incredible improvement in all areas, and was sold.

Now me personally, I am lucky because where I train sparring is not about winning it is about improving. As I have previously stated the hand skills are trained out side of competition so this is not an issue for me as it is to so many others that do not realize that we train the hands.

My instructor is very persistent on having his students compete, even pushes the older students to compete for the reasons stated above, however, he is addamate that win or lose doesn"t madder. It took a while to understand why he thinks this competing is so important but now I understand even though I am at the age where that competitive spirit is just not there anymore. Ad to that the worry of being injured, which has happened, I really have to push myself to get the nerve up and there are not many opponents for me to compete against any more so I end up fighting someone 10 years younger, 80 pounds heavier, but when it"s over, there is this incredible feeling of accomplishment.

I must toot my own horn though, I normally do quite well at these events.


Edited by von1 (03/12/08 12:38 PM)

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#377814 - 03/12/08 12:39 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

ITFUNITY


This last explanation makes more sense. The problem with us using hand techniques for competition is that we sparr full contact so if hands were allowed people might die, can you imagine if the rules stated full contact kicking but minimal contact hands? what a nightmare for competitor trying stay aware of all that so they don"t kill people. And we can punch full power just not to head. Some of these punches hurt and can darn near knock the wind out of you even with the protective gear. This would be just too much to control.




FWIW, Olympic TKD is not the only martial art with rules that prohibit punches to the head. Kyokushin Karate and Pankration also do not allow punches to the head in tournament rules. But for some reason, Olympic TKD is the only one that gets criticized for it.

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#377815 - 03/12/08 12:41 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY quote I agree & think our (ITF) process or rules are similar & present similar disadvantages. It is up to the rest of the training to supplement any weaknesses from tournament rules sparring may bring. end quote


I do not wish to leave the impression that I do not see problems and/or weaknesses in our methods. I am only attempting to share another side that frankly is not discussed enough on this forum.
If one still does not see the value in what we do that is just fine. To be honest there were many times I questioned these methods myself, I stuck with it, learned more about it, began to notice incredible improvement in many areas and was sold.




Absolutely! That is why I led with the weaknesses of my system. Rest assurred that any system falls short no matter how hard they try to maximize realsim, even the highly thought of MMAs, as provisions always have to be adhered to for obvious safety, health & legal limits.

IMHO the thing to do, is realize where shortcomings are, deal with them, so you not only improve, but don't lull oneself with a false sense of security.

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