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#377616 - 03/02/08 05:30 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
The thread is what is it Matt, and I haven't seen anything that contravened forum rules (although that's for someone else to decide now).

I would like make a point about the idea that TKD is now disrespected. I think those who are trying to improve TKD are not always united in how they think the art should change in order to improve.

For instance, some like Mr Anslow here see the SD side of TKD as it's most important aspect, and do everything with that in mind. In this case, MMA effective does not necessarily mean street effective, because it is thought that the two worlds differ so much.

A second group, which I think you would belong to Matt(if I may be so bold lol), sees sport as probably the most important tool in the box in regards to good training. MMA might be seen as the best avenue for which to take TKD into, because it has the most relaxed rule set, although I think you would still give kickboxing and Muay Thai some credit as being good for learning to defend oneself. The principle is I think- if you can do it in a sporting environment, then it will be far easier to reproduce in a life or death scenario.

So my opinion: I love sport. The more I do martial arts the more I realise that I have very little interest in the self defense aspects themselves, I just like fighting with people in a reasonably safe environment. To this extent, most of the TKD schools I have trained at have been just what I wanted- a focus on sparring drills and practice that were pretty much the same as training for kickboxing, kyukoshin etc. I do not believe it matters whether a TKD school teaches one iota of ground-work or even clinch-work, so long as the instructor can point out another school which trains these areas specifically.

I have trained at a school that taught everything under one roof as it were, but I found I could out-strike everyone on their feet and submit everyone on the ground,(no, no I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, but make a point) because I trained the two ranges separately and intensely under experts in their one range, rather than trying to learn it all from one instructor, which frankly I think is very difficult to do- we all have preferences!(my weakness by the way is the stand-up clinch)

So that is my opinion. It may be useful for some of you who prefer the "fighting" aspects of martial arts- however I think it will simply not make any sense for those of you who prefer the "self defense" aspects. But this is how most activities are- people do things for different reasons, and it would be folly to assume that the guy who is doing the same MA as you is in it for the same reasons, or agrees with your approach. I think the vibrancy of this discussion and of the forum generally demonstrates that amply.

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#377617 - 03/02/08 06:06 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:



Quote:

I catch h-ll for this opinion from people because mma has done a good job of promoting it's self and many identify it as being the ultimate SD, the real deal, I do not




I dont know many who say this Von.So you wont get much jip.Or should not.Most say that MMA type training is just the closest thing to a real fight you get without actualy going out and fighting.Thats all.
And its not just about ground fighting or ground and pound which people who dont train in it seem obsessed with bringing up.

Ok Von.Post some good realistic SD training.
Thats what we need.Footage.
We can get footage of street cams filming assaults.Footage of fights.Footage of MMA fights and compare them all.
Footage of real choatic violence and see what it looks like.
The thread has gone bonkers lets go the whole hog.
Its turning into a kind of 'style' verses.
Let just make it a good training verses bad training thread .





matxtx

I just stated that MMA was realistic fighting, where we part is that I do not consider MMA type fighting ultimate SD I call it fighting, for a lot of reasons. As far as me posting real life SD techniques, that would be impossible because it would all depend on a given situation.
I assure you my goal would not to let things turn into a fight and if it did I would not want it to last very long. Fighting is foolish unless it is for sport so when I speak of SD I am referring to becoming much more dangerous than a fighter because my life depends on it. I have lived a while and have been in the company of plenty of dangerous and assaultive individuals the kind that you speak of and am familiar with chaotic violence. I can tell you from experience that most of them are pu---s when it comes to technique. They are best at surprising you and getting the upper hand which usually involves a weapon. I also have worked in corrections for 10 plus years and have daily contact with many nasty people from many back grounds. I know how they think and how they victimize others and what most of them are capable of. Now how would I fair against an MMA person in a competition? probably not to well because I do not train to fight this way because I am not a fighter. What I am trying to say is that MMA is good at what it trains for which is fighting but real SD employes many techniques that would neutralize a person hell bent on fighting. If a weapon is involved any one is in trouble no matter what training they have and now on top of that is the surprise factor, and on top of that is these people are seldom alone so I don"t care how good a fighter you are. If an individual does not feel they are learning good practical SD and this is what they seek they are training under the wrong person, wrong organization , and wrong system. That was all I was trying to say, never wanted to give the impression that one system is better than another. My whole point is that fighting these people is the wrong way to go so becoming a good fighter is not good enough. One must decide what they seek, is it to become a fighter ,or is it something else? If it is self SD and one is training TKD or any other system and feel they are not learning than they need to reevaluate their training organization.

I bring up the ground game of MMA because that is what stands out in peoples minds the most as far as MMA and TKD being different. It is not meant to be a jib at MMA. Now again I say that many MMA fighters would not utilize much of their MMA ring training for a real SD situation, at least I would hope not, because they have probably learned many techniques better suited for SD than actually fighting like they would in competition.

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#377618 - 03/03/08 03:00 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Funny, I always thought it was called MMA because there was a mixture of MA's in the ring (or octagon), karate vs MT, BJJ vs Sumo etc
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#377619 - 03/03/08 03:39 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I got the impression you were saying it did.Trying to give more credit to TKD.Which has been my point as to why it looses face.Which is the thread discussion.



Funnily enough, I dont think people give the original TKD enough credit myself.. those looking from the outside only ever talk of kicking distance and points competitions.. no others parts of TKD. Credit where its due, TKD had throws, locks and fighting off the floor (limited as it was)

Quote:

Mas Oyamas best fighter ,Kurozaki Kenji, lost to a Thai fighter and then went over and trained and he brought those methods back and Kyokusin karate incorporated them.



And did KK suddenly become Thia cos of it!!

Quote:

What they showed on the tours is not documented either as well as caught on film?
Convenient.



Dunno about documented (perhaps ITFunity could answer that).. as for film.. no one had video cameras in them days Im afraid!

Quote:

Now if they did not show it then they copped out.Hee Ill Choi,Jhoon Rhee,Rhee the british pioneer.Countless others.Virtualy all of britain,probably american,Even what was going on in korea.They neglected to show that or put it in?Then they all sold out.



I dont think so. Perhaps they could have shown a wider spectrum of what TKD offered as a general thing thats all. Though there are videos around of more then just punching and kicking. I recall on another forum someone posted an 8mm film of a TKD pionner demonstrating joint locks & throws.. to a poster who wouldnt belive TKD had throws, even though they were in the manuals!

Quote:

I dont havethe encyclopeia but it was up to those above me to show me.



Is it! I thought that was down to instructors!


Quote:

Yes times have evolved.So its good to add it.Bang on what iv been saying.I dont agree on saying it was all there originaly which I got the impression was being said.



Was is this "all" you keep banging on about? No art has it all.. not then, not now. TKD has/has a lot of parts to it though.. kicks, punches, locks, throws, takedowns and even limited ground (type) work.. though not "rollin" as in BJJ.. this I think is its weak link but back then it wasnt considered so as the philosphy was different and it was more akin to SD philosophy - where if you went down, you did whatever was needed to get back up.. you didnt look for a submission.

Quote:

Now your saying its basic.You didnt say that before.



I said the stuff on the floor was basic.. it still is and TBH other arts have it much more refined and even did back then. Its funny because many TKD BB's were also Judo BB's and its ashame the ne-waza didnt become part of TKD (IMO).

Quote:

The loose face thing is the discussion.My point was it looses it by making out TKD is more than it is.



I dont think anyone has.. the point peple are actually making was that it has more to it that is taught/shown today.



Quote:

Like I said.My point.If you were claiming TKD had it all anyway,which it looked like you were,that would be ridiculus. Now I know you were not.



I look forward to hearing what you mean by "all" . Again, no art has it all and no offence to MMA guys, but neither does MMA.


Quote:

It does not make sense for some to dismiss MMA training as sport



I dont think anyone dismissed it as pure sport, but on the other hand most clubs do train for sport, Ive not heard of MMA's SD policy ever!! I've never seen a street fight look like the ones in the UFC TBH.. bits of ones perhaps, but no street fight looks for a submission or aims to take it to the ground and argue that as you like but thats what happens in most UFC type matches.
I dont wanna get into MMA what is, what its not type of thing, as I respect the art and have a few friends who train in and/or teach it.


Quote:

Thats a mistake then.Its the equivilent of others saying TKD is all kicking from what they have seen.



Others do say that about TKD and like you say, its down to the MMA world to show different.. just like I feel its down to TKD to show different.

Quote:

My point was why is it ok for TKD to train like that a for it to be original TKD and great for SD, yet if MMA guys do it its sport?



Like I said, Im not getting into an anti-MMA thing, but the difference as far as what we were doing is that if you were swept or thrown, you would strike or aim for vital points to allow time to stand up or, if in a good position go for a choke.. as I said above, there wernt really any submissions then (unless you did Judo too), we would aim for the eys, joints and anything else that could be considered a valid target in SD (all in a fair type of safety mind you).. hence the difference.. one is fair game, the other is banned by the rules!

Quote:

As soon as MMA was mentioned it got jip and I defended it.Then footage of 'original' TKD is shown using the same ideas and it was ok. It did not make sense.



Its probibly because your comments seem to be attacking TKD, so peope will defend it.

Quote:

If original TKD was as is said,then noone in TKD can say anything against MMA as they would be the same.And anyone training in MMA type ways would actualy be doing original Tkd,or more original TKD that those just punching and kicking and a few locks or throws. I hope you see that point.



I do but i dont agree that they would look the same or the training would be the same.. there may be similarities, after all, how many ways can you ht a pad or move in for a hip throw etc. but the overall gameplan would make them different.

Quote:

That point does not matter if you did it before or after it became commercial.It means you would of said ''yes they have caught up with us, that is good training''



I think it is good training, refined training too. Ecah can learn form each other, theres no bottomles pit of knowledge.



Quote:

Good.Glad you see its weakness.Like I say,you seemed to have been making out TKD had it all originaly.



Theres that all thing again!!

Quote:

Im a rogue yea.Just after good solid training.Ships ahoy.I will incorporate my TKD into it if no onw is going to show me another way.If every one has copped out of showingme what can I do?



Sorry, you lost me again. i wasnt implying your a rogue, just that rogue MMA clubs are setting up, same as rogue kick boxing clubs did when that was the big thing!


Quote:

I said that,sarcasticaly, because if you were doing it alread you would be a pioneer like ,Geoff or Steve Morris who was doing way,way before.



So you agree, they were MMA before MMA was invented?


Stuart
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"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377620 - 03/03/08 03:40 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Funny, I always thought it was called MMA because there was a mixture of MA's in the ring (or octagon), karate vs MT, BJJ vs Sumo etc




Thats actually a dam good point! Perhaps MMA'ers have evolved the meaning in time, to suit how they now train. I disctinly remember the early UFC's (1,2 & 3) being billed as "Mixed Martial Art" events!

Hmm.. anyone know who came up with the term MMA?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377621 - 03/03/08 06:44 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
What I think a lot of people forget something about the evolution of TKD when considering Chang Hon. It was developed through the military and taught to soldiers.

I stand (pun intended) to be corrected, but probably one of the last things you really want to do in a combat-zone encounter is go to ground. I imagine you want to be able to out manouver them and perhaps throw them down and take them out, not spend valuable time rolling with them when their buddies might suddenly appear.
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Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377622 - 03/03/08 08:04 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

What I think a lot of people forget something about the evolution of TKD when considering Chang Hon. It was developed through the military and taught to soldiers.

I stand (pun intended) to be corrected, but probably one of the last things you really want to do in a combat-zone encounter is go to ground. I imagine you want to be able to out manouver them and perhaps throw them down and take them out, not spend valuable time rolling with them when their buddies might suddenly appear.




yup.. I say the same thing in the book I did.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377623 - 03/03/08 01:20 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Your kind of seeing my point.Yes.
I want to actualy know what it feels like to have someone try to knock me out,tackle me,kick me, choke me,etc at high intensity and the only way to do that safely is with MMA type drills.Because of safety they HAVE to be sport techniques.
I do have the TKD SD side too and I have taken it very,very seriously in the past and realy researched and trained and done the application stuff and gone deep into TKD.
Lots of it just doesnt work in high intensity drills with someone trying to knock you out.Iv tried.
If someone else can it work,show me in high intensity comditions because its never shown.
I have my own interpretations which Iv only figured out through MMA type drills.
Iv found I can only do some of that stuff because I can do the MMA type drills.Foe example I can pummel in the clinch to get to eyes if I like,or the throat.I can get position on the ground to be able to do the 'lethal stuff',if I end up there,and defend.And obviously get back up.
And I prefer the fighting aspects because if someone assaults me as soon as it goes physical,its now a fight.Im in a fight.The real SD was all the stuff before it went physical.Awarness,talking down etc.
So looking at it like that,which is my view, SD is fighting back just being more brutal than if it was a sports fight.


Edited by matxtx (03/03/08 01:22 PM)
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#377624 - 03/03/08 02:16 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mas Oyamas best fighter ,Kurozaki Kenji, lost to a Thai fighter and then went over and trained and he brought those methods back and Kyokusin karate incorporated them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And did KK suddenly become Thia cos of it!!




No.Never said it did.Explain the point please.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if they did not show it then they copped out.Hee Ill Choi,Jhoon Rhee,Rhee the british pioneer.Countless others.Virtualy all of britain,probably american,Even what was going on in korea.They neglected to show that or put it in?Then they all sold out.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I dont think so. Perhaps they could have shown a wider spectrum of what TKD offered as a general thing thats all. Though there are videos around of more then just punching and kicking. I recall on another forum someone posted an 8mm film of a TKD pionner demonstrating joint locks & throws.. to a poster who wouldnt belive TKD had throws, even though they were in the manuals!





Im not talking about throws.I no full well its not just punching and kicking.
I said show a clip of real TKD As it was originaly trained and you played yours.
Now youv moved the goal posts.Your doing an updated version with modern elements incorporated and trying to progress in areas.Which is great.
If you were to claim that was how they originaly trained,like your clip,yet there is no other similar footage or talk of it or any of that demonstrated then they all would of copped out for not showing it like that.Everyone from the top downwards as General Choi did non at it at seminars I know of.Did not grade countless people on it.Coultless pioneers not mentioning it.So it would of been a cop out on there part for not giving paying students what they knew or how they realy trained.


Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont havethe encyclopeia but it was up to those above me to show me.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Is it! I thought that was down to instructors!




Yes.The instructors.That what I meant by those above me.As a young guy I put my seld in there shoes to teach me realistic SD.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes times have evolved.So its good to add it.Bang on what iv been saying.I dont agree on saying it was all there originaly which I got the impression was being said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Was is this "all" you keep banging on about? No art has it all.. not then, not now. TKD has/has a lot of parts to it though.. kicks, punches, locks, throws, takedowns and even limited ground (type) work.. though not "rollin" as in BJJ.. this I think is its weak link but back then it wasnt considered so as the philosphy was different and it was more akin to SD philosophy - where if you went down, you did whatever was needed to get back up.. you didnt look for a submission.




Your clip was doing it all.And you said it was how they trained originaly.
All I mean striking with the idea of grappling.Or vice versa.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The loose face thing is the discussion.My point was it looses it by making out TKD is more than it is.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I dont think anyone has.. the point peple are actually making was that it has more to it that is taught/shown today.



Ok We disagree.I dont think many TKD puts itself into honest perspective,.Lots claim,in my experience, its realy lethal,it has anti-grappling,we dont need this or that etc,its to kill, all that over top malarky.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It does not make sense for some to dismiss MMA training as sport


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I dont think anyone dismissed it as pure sport, but on the other hand most clubs do train for sport, Ive not heard of MMA's SD policy ever!! I've never seen a street fight look like the ones in the UFC TBH.. bits of ones perhaps, but no street fight looks for a submission or aims to take it to the ground and argue that as you like but thats what happens in most UFC type matches.
I dont wanna get into MMA what is, what its not type of thing, as I respect the art and have a few friends who train in and/or teach it.





Do most clubs train for sport?Id love to see statistics.
UFC? Whats that got to do with it.Thats just a place for people to challenge in a competition.Its a place to apply MMA.
And every MMA person looks for submissions too?Erm ok.A bit of type casting going on.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats a mistake then.Its the equivilent of others saying TKD is all kicking from what they have seen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Others do say that about TKD and like you say, its down to the MMA world to show different.. just like I feel its down to TKD to show different.





In your book you have a section on misinterpretations of TKD.Surely you can see that its funny for you to then make assumptions about MMA.
If others can do it to TKD then it works the other way too.
Your not practicing what you preach.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point was why is it ok for TKD to train like that a for it to be original TKD and great for SD, yet if MMA guys do it its sport?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Like I said, Im not getting into an anti-MMA thing, but the difference as far as what we were doing is that if you were swept or thrown, you would strike or aim for vital points to allow time to stand up or, if in a good position go for a choke.. as I said above, there wernt really any submissions then (unless you did Judo too), we would aim for the eys, joints and anything else that could be considered a valid target in SD (all in a fair type of safety mind you).. hence the difference.. one is fair game, the other is banned by the rules!




Again,your making assumptions.
The tactic I train is to strike at very high intensitys and not get caught in A submission game,Strike strike strike ONLY go for submission if it happens to be here or its all you have.
Obviously subbmissions need to be know and it helps for defence.Know your enemy.
You will find most fights now in competition are and have been going towards striking.
You have still got UFC sport in mind.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said that,sarcasticaly, because if you were doing it alread you would be a pioneer like ,Geoff or Steve Morris who was doing way,way before.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So you agree, they were MMA before MMA was invented?




They were striking with the idea of grappling,yes.Quite a few were way before.
I would not say MMA was 'invented'.Its progressed.The gracies and UFC just brought it to light.So im guessing you mean at that point it was 'invented'.
Sorry if I missenterpret that.


Edited by matxtx (03/03/08 02:21 PM)
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#377625 - 03/03/08 03:26 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

I would not say MMA was 'invented'.Its progressed.The gracies and UFC just brought it to light.So im guessing you mean at that point it was 'invented'.





But the Gracies don't do MMA (as a style/practice) they do Gracie BJJ
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