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#377796 - 03/11/08 05:02 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
While I appreciate your opinions and your laser like focus on the negitive aspect of my response. I will state it again there are some things I find positive about WTF sparring as I indicated before and somethings I still do not understand.

I assure you I have been kicked by these people on a regular basis.

I was not commenting on point sparring but on continuous sparring with points being awarded for techniques. He who has the most points wins

I will admit that I have limited tournament experience from my youth and now I would only be compettng in the seniors division so things may have changed as you say.

Sometime it comes down to different strokes for different folks. But I do like the foot work and speed.

While I can appreciate and understand the philosophy behind it it still does not make me buy into the no hands arguement.

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#377797 - 03/11/08 05:21 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
flynch

Maybe I have become hypersensitive to certain comments, I am working on that.
Did not mean to rile you, probably bad choice of wording on my part, not the first time I have done that, sorry

I respect the fact you do not buy into the no hands bit, this is very common and many are confused by it. I was simply trying to communicate that the sparrings main goal is to improve the most difficult aspect of TKD to master which is the kicking. You can not work on your kicking as effectively when you have a fist in your face, this is the reason for the no hands rule. As I stated we feel the hand techniques are instinctive, natural and easier to master so they are trained and perfected differently, it all comes together outside of competition.

As with any competition, he who has the most points will always win, I don"t understand that comment. When down on points one really needs to go for knock out!


Edited by von1 (03/11/08 05:35 PM)

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#377798 - 03/11/08 05:30 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


I respect the fact you do not buy into the no hands bit, this is very common and many are confused by it. I was simply trying to communicate that the sparrings main goal is to improve the most difficult aspect of TKD to master which is the kicking. You can not work on your kicking as effectively when you have a fist in your face, this is the reason for the no hands rule. As I stated we feel the hand techniques are instinctive, natural and easier to master so they are trained and perfected differently, it all comes together outside of competition.




I can't accept that as a reason. Surely one of the most important aspects of an effective kick is knowing when to throw them, and when not to throw them. When TKD guys have no danger of a punch to their head, they cannot learn this vital skill.

I have no problem with practicing just kicking in sparring, but that is all it is- practice for a more relaxed rules set. I simply cannot understand how you can spar without punches to the head, which is afterall the most common attack in most kickboxing styles and in self defense generally.

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#377799 - 03/11/08 05:36 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
While that maybe the theory or philosophy I can guarantee you that hands are not instinctual for everyone and there are many even at black belt level that are not able to use their hands

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#377800 - 03/11/08 06:01 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:


I respect the fact you do not buy into the no hands bit, this is very common and many are confused by it. I was simply trying to communicate that the sparring main goal is to improve the most difficult aspect of TKD to master which is the kicking. You can not work on your kicking as effectively when you have a fist in your face, this is the reason for the no hands rule. As I stated we feel the hand techniques are instinctive, natural and easier to master so they are trained and perfected differently, it all comes together outside of competition.




I can't accept that as a reason. Surely one of the most important aspects of an effective kick is knowing when to throw them, and when not to throw them. When TKD guys have no danger of a punch to their head, they cannot learn this vital skill.

I have no problem with practicing just kicking in sparring, but that is all it is- practice for a more relaxed rules set. I simply cannot understand how you can spar without punches to the head, which is after all the most common attack in most kickboxing styles and in self defense generally.





I don"t think I am communicating this properly. You need to keep in mind that the sparing is not suppose to be real fighting, it is only a tool, a tool to perfect kicking, foot work, timing, speed, distance, power, stamina, ect. I am not talking about the 1% that are training to compete in Olympics.

The real life SD or fight training is done outside of competition putting the hand techniques together with kicking just like you do. The sparing rules serve to isolated an aspect of our training to become better kickers than we would have been if we had to worry about being punched while working on kicking. We train probably just like you do hands and all we just compete using different rules to isolate the kicking part. This is where the confusion is, people do not understand that we also train hands up when not competing.

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#377801 - 03/11/08 06:13 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

While that maybe the theory or philosophy I can guarantee you that hands are not instinctual for everyone and there are many even at black belt level that are not able to use their hands





I would not think this to be very common, and if one reaches BB level with inferior hand skills they are certainly struggling and there is more going on than training. These individuals may have coordination, or motor skill problems. If you throw your hands up or at any one the first thing most will do is attempt to block, even the untrained Will reflex this way. Now the trained will effectively block and counter, and many are very good at this even with out training.

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#377802 - 03/11/08 09:24 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

As somebody living in a relatively free country I still can't believe the level of pressure that was put on some of these people and their families.




It is deplorable!
Hopefully it will start to be rectified next year. If not, rest assurred that history, over time tends to sort these things out.

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#377803 - 03/11/08 09:40 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

My first thought is that you have never been kicked by these people, I assure you the kicks are very powerful, and injuries, and knock outs are common.
Because of the speed that they are delivered with makes them appear less powerful and is very deceiving. And yes it is very easy to switch gears because sparing is just part of the training, the other components of training SD for many is probably not much different than your training.
This is what myself and others have been trying to expose to some of our critics.




I agree with you & Badachagi. The rules have, maybe without them realizing it, mandated evolution in their Art. No doubt about it. In addition, I think anyone who trains in kicking & punching is in a better position to defend themselves, as compared to if they did not do anything. Now if you want to get the best SD possible, you must find the school that will cater to you & your needs & best deliver you to your goals. I also think weight lifters also have an advantage over themselves, if they were just couch potatos, as they have built strenght. How can having strength not put you in a position to better defend yourself. Likewise with fast, explosive & powerful kicks, plus that fact that you are in the ring. I have seen people in training that were never hit. Once they were, they fell apart. In the ring, also affords one the opportunity to feel combat & even smell it. How can that not help? Again, there may be better ways, but it has to help. JMHO

Quote:

I personally have never competed in a competition that wasn"t continuous sparing so it is not like you are just trying to get a point.




ITF sparring rules are continuous, with no stopping for calling points. They use 4 corner judges with score sheets.

Quote:

I don"t believe as ITF you would be allowed to palm strike or chop to throat either but you are very aware of the option for SD, and so are we.




Actually ITF rules allow all hand techniques. However, back fist, forefist punch & knife hand are the ones most commonly used.

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#377804 - 03/11/08 09:54 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: MattJ]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
matxtx and Mattj let's keep this civil please.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#377805 - 03/11/08 10:21 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Dedicated1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY


Quote
Actually ITF rules allow all hand techniques. However, back fist, forefist punch & knife hand are the ones most commonly used.

This is news to me. So you can chop or knife hand the throat? with full power? How would competitors survive? no offence but I am having difficulty buying this and have never witnessed this in any competitions, regardless of the organization or art.


Edited by von1 (03/11/08 10:28 PM)

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