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#377856 - 03/15/08 10:35 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:


I do not see many differences in the other aspects of training, they are pretty much the same for most of us from what people convey on this forum. Back to the sparing short comings, WTF lacks hands, ITF lacks commitment of power/ settled!




(quoat)
But I honestly don't think it is settled, and I'm not just trying to be difficult. I think there is something here which is lost through lack of experience of actual ITF tournaments.

TKD rules state that tournaments should be carried out with semi-contact, however, I think that any of us who has witnessed more than a couple different tournaments, maybe organised under different groups, will know that this term "semi-contact" is not as clear-cut as you think. I have seen tournaments where refs gave warnings for the smallest signs of force; I have seen the median if you like where competitors getting hit is no problem except where techniques are wild; and I've also seen what ITFUnity has called the Bloodbaths- for instance I remember watching one black belt grading where one guy got KOd with a kick to the throat and almost every student came out with a bleeding nose.

So this is my point- in ITF competitions, people interpret the rules on contact pretty much how they see fit. Unfortunately in the WTF, there is no way of reinterpreting no hands to the head. There are parts of the ITF who are right now competing with rules that are not far from full-contact.

BTW, good debate- for a moment there I thought we were all going to agree




(end quote)

The following is not a WTF is better than ITF, it has already been established that both have weaknesses. I am simply responding to your comments.



1) I am sure that there are some decent shots delivered now and then in an ITF competition, you get no argument on that but I have witnesses many ITF competitions too and it is seldom that real aggressive force is applied and one can not argue that it can prove to be counterproductive to pull shots.

2.) It is very easy to bloody a nose for someone so that is a mute point and not that impressive.

3.) If you compare the amounts of knock outs of the two styles there are many more in lower level WTF competitions due to the full contact to the head, these kicks are very powerful. Not to many knock outs at higher levels because these competitors have mastered many defencive and avoidance strategies. They are also more cautious in attacking and have paid there dues at the lower levels and learned many lessons.


4.) I have to admit that competing in an ITF competition is a little intriguing to me. Would like to experience it and still may some day.


5.) Would like to see it mandatory for all to have to compete in both styles 2-4 times for one to obtain BB. This would expose students to the various advantages that both offer. It would also serve to settle many misconceptions that many people have of the various sparring styles.


I doubt this will settle anything, just couldn"t resist responding. Grin, grin


Edited by von1 (03/15/08 10:59 AM)

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#377857 - 03/15/08 10:37 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
arrrgh,those long quotes are creeping back!!!!!!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377858 - 03/15/08 10:46 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Must be my passive aggressive side coming out sorry. Would like to see you jump in more you always seem to have interesting perspective.

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#377859 - 03/15/08 11:28 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

I have witnesses many ITF competitions too and it is seldom that real aggressive force is applied




I respectfully disagree. Indeed, I think often the problem is too much uncontrolled aggression in the kind of punching flurries that you see in many ITF competitions.

Quote:


3.) If you compare the amounts of knock outs of the two styles there are many more in lower level WTF competitions due to the full contact to the head, these kicks are very powerful.




I agree there are more knockouts in WTF competitions, but personally I think this is mainly down to the hands being kept at the waist. If you throw a hard kick, and there's no dispute from me that WTF guys kick very hard, and it hits someone in the head without impediment then you are going to knock them out. However, having the hands up will stop 90% of these shots from connecting with the head.

Quote:


5.) Would like to see it mandatory for all to have to compete in both styles 2-4 times for one to obtain BB. This would expose students to the various advantages that both offer. It would also serve to settle many misconceptions that many people have of the various sparring styles.






It's a nice idea, but as always it is up to the instructor how he wants to run things. An individual can always enter an open tournament if he/she wants, it can't be a bad idea.

Quote:


I doubt this will settle anything, just couldn"t resist responding. Grin, grin




Well if it doesn't settle anything, then so what. I find it interesting to hear the other side of the debate, and maybe we will never agree about some things but there is no menace intended in my arguments.

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#377860 - 03/15/08 11:59 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I doubt this will settle anything, just couldn"t resist responding. Grin, grin




Having tried WTF style sparring myself, I can say its a lot more difficult than it looks as technically you have less tools to target than in ITF. I really enjoyed the experience btw.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377861 - 03/15/08 12:01 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I respectfully disagree. Indeed, I think often the problem is too much uncontrolled aggression in the kind of punching flurries that you see in many ITF competitions.



Yup, quite agree. ITF sparring is very much about controlled skill.. many forget that or cant do that so "bulldog" in!

Quote:

I agree there are more knockouts in WTF competitions, but personally I think this is mainly down to the hands being kept at the waist.



Gotta admit Von.. thats a very good point. In fact, the WTF club I trained at when in the USA sparre hands up and only dropped them for comps to avoid this!

Quote:

Well if it doesn't settle anything, then so what. I find it interesting to hear the other side of the debate, and maybe we will never agree about some things but there is no menace intended in my arguments.



Me too and I appreciate the focused discussions.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377862 - 03/15/08 12:03 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(quote
I respectfully disagree. Indeed, I think often the problem is too much uncontrolled aggression in the kind of punching flurries that you see in many ITF competitions.
(end quote)


What I was referring to was all out full force going to knock you out aggression.

(quote)
I agree there are more knockouts in WTF competitions, but personally I think this is mainly down to the hands being kept at the waist. If you throw a hard kick, and there's no dispute from me that WTF guys kick very hard, and it hits someone in the head without impediment then you are going to knock them out. However, having the hands up will stop 90% of these shots from connecting with the head.
(end quote)


1. This is a very common misconception that all WTF fighters fight with hands down and simply is not true. Yes you see this in Olympics but there are many reasons for this that I will not go into at this time.

2. First off, most of us are trained to defend with hands up and many compete this way, hands up , I am one who does this. It is still not uncommon to get caught in the head by competent opponent because many of these kicks are powerful and deflect off some blocks right into your face, obviously one has missed the block when this happens but sooner or later it happens. Blocking helps but no guarantees. You will see many attacks dispelled by blocking so why do so many people think that WTF competitors do not block, we are taught to block using blocking techniques to block powerful kicks with out getting our arms broke.

I think the problem is that most of the matches people are exposed to is the higher level Olympic type where many competitors do compete with their hands down. I have participated in my share of WTF competitions and can honestly say to you that most posture with hands up and ready.



I to enjoy these exchanges of information. Cheers! Oh and I have to keep my quotes to a minimum or trevek will scold me.


Edited by von1 (03/15/08 12:15 PM)

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#377863 - 03/15/08 12:34 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

I doubt this will settle anything, just couldn"t resist responding. Grin, grin




Having tried WTF style sparring myself, I can say its a lot more difficult than it looks as technically you have less tools to target than in ITF. I really enjoyed the experience btw.

Stuart





Got to ask the question stuart, did you keep your hands up? I hope so.

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#377864 - 03/15/08 12:49 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:



1. This is a very common misconception that all WTF fighters fight with hands down and simply is not true. Yes you see this in Olympics but there are many reasons for this that I will not go into at this time...

I think the problem is that most of the matches people are exposed to is the higher level Olympic type where many competitors do compete with their hands down. I have participated in my share of WTF competitions and can honestly say to you that most posture with hands up and ready.





You are right that most of my exposure to WTF sparring has been through the olympics and world championships. But I am happy to take your word for it that this is different in lower level tournaments. The problem comes though, when lower level competitors try to emulate the olympians which is only natural given that they are the best in the world at the sport. Have you noticed this?

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#377865 - 03/15/08 03:05 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
quote

You are right that most of my exposure to WTF sparring has been through the olympics and world championships. But I am happy to take your word for it that this is different in lower level tournaments. The problem comes though, when lower level competitors try to emulate the olympians which is only natural given that they are the best in the world at the sport. Have you noticed this?
end quote


Yes I would sound very foolish if I tried to say that I have never witnessed this, but it is far less common than many think. Often times the hands come down for reasons that many people do not understand.

I would like to share an example with you. Believe me this is not easy, it is not my nature, but in the realm of sharing OK. That is what this forum is all about and I hope to communicate that we are not as crazy and untrained as many think, but how would one know unless they begin to understand a few things about us.

I will use the high snap kick and push kick as example, if you don"t believe me try it yourself on a heavy bag, paddle or a protected partner. Heck you may even be aware of my example, but I assure you many are not and I hope this helps.

Opponent is in front of you getting ready to attack, you scenes this from your training, could be a flinch, his eyes, what ever. As soon as they make their move, I don"t care if it is punch or kick, you launch a high snap kick or a push kick to face or upper chest ( snap to face, push to chest) Your hands are still up and ready before the kick. As the kick rises your hands are thrust downward this adds tremendous power and height to the kick. Now, one may say, but you could/would be punched in the face. No, you would not because you learn to time this, yes always that possibility that you have made a mistake but in that case you probably would have been late in executing an effective block anyway due to timming issues and still end up being clocked. The key is in the timing and your defence is your offence! As you return to ready stance the kick comes back and the hands are thrust back up again adding speed and power to recovery. The untrained or non WTF are going, look he drops his hands, and they are wright! but hopefully one has a better understanding of why.

Any way I hope this sheds light on a controversial training/fighting method. Not a better method, that depends on the practitioner and what one is comfortable with, not an inferior method, it is a different method that many do not comprehend, or do not wish to comprehend, and that is OK too. The point is there are reasons for most of what one observes. There are many more examples and probably better ones, I chose the high front snap kick because even a non TKD practitioner would understand.

Hope I didn"t come across as know it all I can tell you are very competent in TKD by the information I learn from your postings, just want more people to understand another aspect of our art.


Edited by von1 (03/15/08 03:29 PM)

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