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#377496 - 02/24/08 02:26 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

1) AND I don't think it has anything to do with General Choi; many were involved at that time and prior to his time.

2) TKD is what it is. Karate is what it is. BJJ is what it is. Judo is what it is.




1) Sorry, there really was no TKD prior to Gen Choi. He named it in 1955.

2) This usage implies that you are using TKD as an umbrella name. Am I understanding you correctly?





1. There is no confusion; General Choi was involved in the naming of Taekwondo but we are not foolish enough to believe that what much of what Taekwondo is his creation; far from it. The Koreans both North and South were practicing martial arts both from their culture as well as from Japan far before Choi was even born. That Choi decided to put it in a little box and label doesn't take from these facts.

People date the origins of Taekwondo from a long time ago and though there may be some confusion and national pride, Choi is in my opinion "new" to this.

Forgive me if I offend you but I have found many ITF people treat Choi like some patron saint. They stick him high on some grand pedestal and believe his writings to be much like the bible; thus making him their god of a sort. I don't see him as anything but a man, one that I owe nothing to nor acknowledge any more then a person in history; one of many who were involved in martial arts. Perhaps if I was ITF, perhaps if I cared about history instead of application then he may mean more to me but he doesn't and so when people throw his name out like it is suppose to mean something, it means nothing to me then throwing out any other random name. I suspect many ITF people will take offense to that but so be it; they must understand that he is not all important to everybody.

2. I personal get sick and tired of people trying to divisionalize TKD holding one faction at a greater advantage then the other; I think each has equal merit and one is not better then the other if taught correctly. I can guarantee that there are many forms of Karate following different practices and I would dare say that other martial arts are the same. However yes, I am using the name Taekwondo as an umbrella because after all we are a kicking art; or seen more as a kicking art.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377497 - 02/24/08 02:54 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

Are you saying TKD doesn't make the cut when it comes to MMA?





Against another skilled person who is combining grappling and striking tacticaly it does not do well.Thats what Im saying.
MMA/NHB, UFC, forgett all those phrases as they bring up sport things.These just happen to be where you can safely test your stuff against the best.
There are sly digs at this all the time.''I dont want to fight in the octogan''.
''I wont meet an MMA person on 'da street''.
''Not everyone wants to ground and pound'' bla bla.

How do you know who you will meet or how good they are?You dont.Or whats going to happen in a chaotic,violent assault.So does it not make sense,and is more challenging and fun,to train with the best in mind?
So the ultimate test for a martial artist,unarmed is to face someone who tacicaly combines striking and grappling is it not?
What else is there.

My point is that TKD looses face when people make out it can hold its own in that enviroment.When people say TKD cant be done within rules because its for killing or something.Things like that.Its plain embarrasing.If you want to risk it thats fine.Want to just do TKD thats fine.But the truth has got to be there and in perspective though or TKD loses face.
Yes,technique wise they can powerfull.But you need to get position to do them and use them tacticaly,set them up,still be defensive etc etc.Theres non of this which takes into account facing a grappler who can strike.

People have been mentioned who have TKD backgrounds.Good.Lets get some footage up and see what they are doing.How are they using it?What are they using?What level of opponents are they facing?What styles are they doing good against or bad against?
Are they using TKD grappling?
Not as a negative thing,as a study.




matxtx

On some level I agree with you but I must ask the question, does your TKD school not train for grapple type situations and did you have to seek this training outside of TKD? This is where I have bumped heads with you before because we train for grappling and against it too. So is it all of TKD or is it just certain schools that you refer to when you say TKD does not match up.

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#377498 - 02/24/08 04:15 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
von, it's cool. I think what the MMA 'craze' has done is made TKD people reassess how they should practice their art (which I think is what you also suggest). If nothing else, with all the people who are now embracing MMA, BJJ etc we are more likely (in theory if not actuality)to encounter wrestling than before. More to the point, more likely to encounter people who have trained to take down strikers.

If that, as you suggest, makes a TKDist reconsider how they train then it is good.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377499 - 02/24/08 04:51 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

1) AND I don't think it has anything to do with General Choi; many were involved at that time and prior to his time.

2) TKD is what it is. Karate is what it is. BJJ is what it is. Judo is what it is.




1) Sorry, there really was no TKD prior to Gen Choi. He named it in 1955.

2) This usage implies that you are using TKD as an umbrella name. Am I understanding you correctly?





1. There is no confusion; General Choi was involved in the naming of Taekwondo but we are not foolish enough to believe that what much of what Taekwondo is his creation; far from it. The Koreans both North and South were practicing martial arts both from their culture as well as from Japan far before Choi was even born. That Choi decided to put it in a little box and label doesn't take from these facts.

People date the origins of Taekwondo from a long time ago and though there may be some confusion and national pride, Choi is in my opinion "new" to this.

Forgive me if I offend you but I have found many ITF people treat Choi like some patron saint. They stick him high on some grand pedestal and believe his writings to be much like the bible; thus making him their god of a sort. I don't see him as anything but a man, one that I owe nothing to nor acknowledge any more then a person in history; one of many who were involved in martial arts. Perhaps if I was ITF, perhaps if I cared about history instead of application then he may mean more to me but he doesn't and so when people throw his name out like it is suppose to mean something, it means nothing to me then throwing out any other random name. I suspect many ITF people will take offense to that but so be it; they must understand that he is not all important to everybody.

2. I personal get sick and tired of people trying to divisionalize TKD holding one faction at a greater advantage then the other; I think each has equal merit and one is not better then the other if taught correctly. I can guarantee that there are many forms of Karate following different practices and I would dare say that other martial arts are the same. However yes, I am using the name Taekwondo as an umbrella because after all we are a kicking art; or seen more as a kicking art.



Nice post.


_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

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#377500 - 02/24/08 06:42 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

von, it's cool. I think what the MMA 'craze' has done is made TKD people reassess how they should practice their art (which I think is what you also suggest). If nothing else, with all the people who are now embracing MMA, BJJ etc we are more likely (in theory if not actuality)to encounter wrestling than before. More to the point, more likely to encounter people who have trained to take down strikers.

If that, as you suggest, makes a TKDist reconsider how they train then it is good.




Agree, and second.

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#377501 - 02/24/08 08:24 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
IMHO when it comes to fighters from different disciplines facing each other, the winner will simply be the tougher fighter. Now the only scientific way to measure which Art is better is to control for all the variables which has never been done.

There are many reasons why TKD has the poor reputation it does, namely the the ignoring history of why it was developed, the fact that it was a big & early export of a poor developing country, its later emphasis as a sport, the commercialism, insurance regulations, emphasis on child development/babysitting & a host country that has numerous colleges offering degree programs up to & including a PhD. very little will change. JMHO

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#377502 - 02/24/08 08:28 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

2. I personal get sick and tired of people trying to divisionalize TKD holding one faction at a greater advantage then the other; I think each has equal merit and one is not better then the other if taught correctly. I can guarantee that there are many forms of Karate following different practices and I would dare say that other martial arts are the same. However yes, I am using the name Taekwondo as an umbrella because after all we are a kicking art; or seen more as a kicking art.




Umbrella name, thats cool. FYI, the ITF is not considered a kicking art, as approxiamtely 2/3rds of each's techniques are related to the hands. Do you have a guess or estimate on what % of feet you emphasize?

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#377503 - 02/24/08 08:31 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

2. I personal get sick and tired of people trying to divisionalize TKD holding one faction at a greater advantage then the other;




Just to set the record straight, my comment was not meant in a way to divide TKD & in fact I am on record in this forum never stating such & furthermore have repeatedly posted that I make no claims that any one way is better than another, nor is one Art or school better than the next.

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#377504 - 02/24/08 08:38 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Perhaps if I was ITF, perhaps if I cared about history instead of application then he may mean more to me but he doesn't and so when people throw his name out like it is suppose to mean something, it means nothing to me then throwing out any other random name.




Well if you cared about history, maybe you would have a little more insight to how & why TKD is felt by some to be losing its face/popularity, which is the subject of this thread. Some may have some information to see where TKD was & compare it to where it is today. Understanding that road provides some answers to how we got here & how it may be sorted out. JMHO

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#377505 - 02/24/08 09:08 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

1. There is no confusion; General Choi was involved in the naming of Taekwondo but we are not foolish enough to believe that what much of what Taekwondo is his creation; far from it. The Koreans both North and South were practicing martial arts both from their culture as well as from Japan far before Choi was even born. That Choi decided to put it in a little box and label doesn't take from these facts.





You are most correct in your claim that Korea had fighting arts well before Ambassador Choi was born. That goes without saying, as all countries can & many do make similiar claims. However I challenge you or anyone else to demonstrate a link, direct or otherwise, to what is now being done in Korea from 1945 to present, backed up by academic research. None exists.



Quote:

People date the origins of Taekwondo from a long time ago and though there may be some confusion and national pride, Choi is in my opinion "new" to this.





People, what people? Can you name them? Can you cite their research that supports this claim?
Now lets clear something up, you use TKD as an umbrella term. Others use it as an Art whose principal founder was Ambassador Choi, others look at it as a Martial Sport, even an Olympic sport. I find no problem with any usage of the name.

What is beyond refute is that the he named it. He was not just simply "involved" in it, as he came up with the name. It is also clear that few if any, even used the name, till 1965, the 1972, 1973 & finally 1978. The only ones using it from the start, were Choi & his followers, namely the Oh Do Kwan & those from the Chung Do Kwan that followed him. Now he did, along with many talented students of various MAs, did systemize a style of MA, that was spread to countless Koreans & then countless others around the world, due to their efforts, long before any others were even using the name.


Quote:

Forgive me if I offend you but I have found many ITF people treat Choi like some patron saint. They stick him high on some grand pedestal and believe his writings to be much like the bible; thus making him their god of a sort. I don't see him as anything but a man, one that I owe nothing to nor acknowledge any more then a person in history; one of many who were involved in martial arts. Perhaps if I was ITF, perhaps if I cared about history instead of application then he may mean more to me but he doesn't and so when people throw his name out like it is suppose to mean something, it means nothing to me then throwing out any other random name. I suspect many ITF people will take offense to that but so be it; they must understand that he is not all important to everybody.




Sir, you do not offend me. It would really take a lot more than an opposing view point on an internet discussion forum. Especially from someone who admits to not caring about history. Don't be silly!

I also do not look to him as a saint, nor put him on a pedestal, nor do I equate his writings to any bible or holybook, nor do I consider him some sort of a g-d. He is just a man. One who because of Korean geo-politics, was written out of history. One who, along with Dr. Kim Un Yong, did more to develop, promote & spread a wonderful & popular KMA around the world. I can think of no 2 other people who were more instrumental than they were. Am I missing someone else?
Please do share with me.

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