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#377736 - 03/08/08 06:52 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
von, sounds like a great fight... as long as they don't have to go to ground.
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#377737 - 03/08/08 07:02 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Iv re-read posts and its interesting how times and dates have moved and points have changed.This is why im accusing people of twisting and just getting playgroundy.




No twisting or game playing here, just a rather stark lack of understanding of KMA history on your part. So you are forgiven. Now please kindly follow along:
Korea was occupied by Japan till Aug 1945, the 15th I think. Before that, the practice of any MA & many Korean customs was outlawed. In the spring of 1944, March 11 I think, a small school in an archery training was set up by GM Ro Byung Jik, called the Song Moo Kwan. It was forced to close within about 6 months by the Japanese. In Sept of 44, the Chung Do Kwan opened under GM Lee, which was also forced to close. Now these schools were teaching Karate, as both learned it in Japan.
At the end of WW II, the MAs, along with other Korean customs started to again flourish. In 1945, Mr. Choi Hong Hi became a founding member in the fledging SK Army when he was commissioned as a Lt. Now both GM Ro & Lee were senior to Mr. Choi, who was also teaching Korean Karate at the time to some of his troops. So the period of the 1940s was not the birth of original TKD. It was from 1954 forward, after the President of SK ordered KMA to be taught to the troops. This gave Mr. Choi, now a general the upper hand. Due to his position & standing, he had access to numerous talented troops, who also had fighting skills from variuos disciplines of the time. It was here in the Oh Do kwan that the modern TKD was born out of various systems of the day, with the biggest influence being ShotoKan.

These pioneers, after completing 3 years of mandatory military service, started to spread TKD around the world. Some of the 1st places were Malyasia, when he was Ambassador & Vietnam, where some 700 Korean instructors, over time, were dispatched there to teach their soldiers. The 1st instructors went there in 1962, Dec, led by Nam Tae Hi, who later retired as a Colonel.
The 1963 date is when the JiDo kwan adopted what would later basically become WTF & then Olympic tournament rules.

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#377738 - 03/08/08 07:05 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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Loc: Poland
How long was Korea under occupaion, was it 1910?
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#377739 - 03/08/08 07:14 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I believe that is the year, 1910 often used as the formal annexation. However, Korea was fought over before by Japan & Russia, with Japan exerting much control prior to 1910.
Note:
After the formal annexation in 1910, Ahn Choong Gun, 4th gup blue belt shot & killed the Japanese Resident General in March & was later executed in Sept of the same year, after being tortured for 6 months. One of the things I like about the ITF, is that you learn much history about Korea, not just the TKD propaganda they put out.

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#377740 - 03/08/08 07:18 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

1. ITF people think they are the only organization to teach effective SD, this is a false assumption and people need to realize that many WTF schools took what they believed to be effective SD from the ITF syllabus and discarded what they did"t think was effective then incorporated more things like hapkido judo etc. This is not a bad thing it is progress in many eyes.




No actually the main emphasis of the ITF is the DO. SD is their most important physical aspect. But even that is used to lead one back to the DO.

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#377741 - 03/08/08 07:18 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hiro Bumi Ito, wasn't it? First Japanese governor general of Korea and a leading figure in Korea-Japan 'merger'.
32 moves represent his (An's) age when executed in Lui Shung prison.


Edited by trevek (03/08/08 07:20 PM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#377742 - 03/08/08 07:22 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

2. ITF is much more bitter and radical and very stuck in their past, notice the word - their.




Very broad & somewhat over general statement. However I think I understand where you are coming from & do agree somewhat.

My only reply would be, do you know why?

In addition, do you realize the TKD Museum at the Kukkiwon, headquarters for both TKD training & the WTF, has not 1 reference to Gen Choi, his contributions & that of the pioneers, not even that he named the Art. Nothing. Nadda. Zilch. Zero
The only thing remotely connected is the plaque of the Oh Do kwan, displayed with all the other main Kwans & a TKD WC poster with Taekwon-Do spelt the right way.

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#377743 - 03/08/08 07:25 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Not a surprising idea, though, when General Choi used to openly refer to WTF TKD as 'phoney TKD'
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377744 - 03/08/08 07:36 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

3. I have observed many ITF training videos and can honestly say that our WTF affiliated school teaches as much if not more thorough SD techniques, mostly hapkido and judo based, very effective.
4. It drives me crazy how ITF persons are constantly blaming or assuming that it is WTF affiliated organizations that are the main problem with TKD because they are exposed to the olympics. This has been the under lying tone of this forum for a long time.
5. I honestly do not believe that enough ITF people truly understand WTF training and philosophy and insist that our training does not match or even exceed the ITF syllabus.
6. Our full contact sparing does serve a good purpose and can be very painful even with all the protective gear, broken ribs, jaws, teeth, head injuries, don"t even want to here the pitty patter crap that many like to spew. I have an injury that is more than three years old and will not heal! I admit our sparing does not resemble real fighting but one needs to remember, it is not suppose to! non WTF people do not get that, therefore can not relate. I could attempt to explain it but my suggestion would be that one participate in some of our tourneys, maybe then they will have an understanding of what it is and appreciate the value. Oh and did I mention that many students never even participate in competition, so what are they training for day in and day out, nothing?
6. People keep forgetting that the sparing is a very small part of what most WTF schools train but that is most of the criticism of WTF schools, there is much more going on and no one will give credit, they keep harping on our sparing even though they never even tried it. This drives me crazy!
7. Many of our instructors are former ITF instructors! there might be some good reasons to come to the dark side but many old school will never even try to understand what it"s about. It is no more money motivated than any ITF organization.
8. Many ITF organizations do not fully train their own syllabus but still criticize WTF affiliated schools for not having a standard syllabus or fully following the ITF syllabus. So if many are not training their own syllabus can you really even call it a standard syllabus? obviously not.
Conclusion, WTF, ITF need to cooperate and come to a conclusion as to what components from each is worthy and incorporate them into one strongly defined system or this devision will never end and TKD will always be viewed as inferior. To do this ITF will need to let go of much of their past and except some of the good regarding WTF. After all if TKD becomes unpopular no one will care except those of us left behind pointing fingers. You are write about history being important and it is time to re-write it and move on, except that TKD has changed forever and unite both systems into one, only then will we have a true, whole and respected TKD.




The Kukkiwon has some great training. The WTF has only rules. The Kukkiwon textbook is wonderful & I think any TKD student should consider buying it & adding it to their library.
Do you have it?

Training & its quality has more to do with what type of school you have & how the instructor teaches. They either push &/or demand something from their students or they simply take money. The Olympics has had a great & positive effect on TKD. However, some can make an arguement that emphasis on the sport aspect has some downside. However, even ITF schools can & are guilty of this.

There is a syllabus for the ITF as laid out in the 15 volume Encylopdia of TKD. IMHO a truly unprecidented reference tool. I know, I am biased! But I never really have seen anything else like it. Now the fact that some may not follow it & indeed most do not follow it in its entirety, does not take away from the worth of it.

I sincerely hope that both groups will work better together in the future. I think there are signs of that happening. The problem is all the headaches of the past. It will be really up to the younger ones to do it. Hopefully they will not become poisoned by the past bickering, finger pointing & egotistical moves of the founders. This will be helped by the fact that the 2 Koreas are looking for things to share, in an attempt to work closer. TKD, being a proud Korean achievement is helping on that front. The fact that ITF is so strong in NK & SK has the WTF, will really help, as the politicians will force the egos of the TKD leaders to take a back seat, hopefully way in the back, as it is long overdue. JMHO

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#377745 - 03/08/08 07:38 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Hiro Bumi Ito, wasn't it? First Japanese governor general of Korea and a leading figure in Korea-Japan 'merger'.32 moves represent his (An's) age when executed in Lui Shung prison.




Yes, except I think he title was technically resident general, with it being changed to governor general after his assanination.

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