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#377726 - 03/08/08 01:33 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Stuart,you accused me of bringing up MMA and sport.



Im sure I only said I tried to explain why people would see MMA as sport related.. on a number of occassions!! If so, then it would have been brought up already as you took offence to anyone who said it was sport.. hence my explanation as to why!!

Quote:

Want examples more of you doing that?



yes please!



Quote:

So stuart you are now saying it was a secter kept from the general?



No.. I dont know if it was actully something that would have been kept from him, though it wouldnt surprise me because of how things went back then - though Im just sumising! Doubly so if he didnt like it. As for "sector".. I didnt say that, I said it probibly wasnt main stream.

Quote:

Your saying it was Pioneered by individuals and outside training methods and influences?



You could say that, though Id be more inclined to say it was guided by their personal expereinces & preference... oh! I did say that! Though it wasnt outside of training methods, as it was a training method, just perhaps one not prefered or taken on board by all.

Quote:

Thats what iv been saying.Its developed you yourclip.
Not the other way round.



Eh! .. erm, okay.. though that would insinuate my clip was the culmination of it all and of course, as has already been pointed out.. it isnt!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377727 - 03/08/08 01:42 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Its not hard to understand.Buts thats not continous MMA tryp sparring.Your claiming they were doing that originaly.



Whose twisting things!!!!!

Quote:

Continuous MMA sparring is carrying on and on,so a guy is on you and hits you snd you turn it round ,now your back in controll,hang on, its tuned again etc.



So what happens if one opponent knocks the other out with the first few punches?


Quote:

TKD originaly had no pads,and was not sport type sparringin this instance.So using ALL TKD non sport techniques would make it impossible to do the continuous sparring.Can you not see that?



Hence why there was some forms of control.. that stands to reason as well as being explained already!

Quote:

So ,again,hope you can see why its hard to understand.



Everyone else gets it! It just that you dont want to!


Oh.. sorry, this was to ITFunity... oh well.. done now
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377728 - 03/08/08 01:50 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:



True Mr. Boik! But please remember that this is the ITF syllabus, which we know is the smallest group of those who use the name TKD. So it doesn't apply to the over whelming majority of those doing a different TKD. So in effect this is a defense or counter for our style of TKD. Where is the defense of the other styles of TKD?
How come it seems that the only defenders or the most vocal defenders are ITF based?





ITFUNITITY
All respect but....


I agree with much of what you post on this forum but feel that I must comment on your statement about why is it that ITF people are the ones that seem to always be defending TKD. What do you mean that this is the ITF syllabus? What were you referring to?

1. ITF people think they are the only organization to teach effective SD, this is a false assumption and people need to realize that many WTF schools took what they believed to be effective SD from the ITF syllabus and discarded what they did"t think was effective then incorporated more things like hapkido judo etc. This is not a bad thing it is progress in many eyes. I know I am going to get the no WTF standard syllabus argument and it is a legitimate argument. My only response is that as a whole WTF affiliated schools are still evolving which means that TKD as an art is still evolving. I believe this is the problem, old school vs new school mentality and fear of change, is it for better? time will sort things out. Me personally, I am always looking for improvement and one must be willing to break tradition to find out if new is improved.

2. ITF is much more bitter and radical and very stuck in their past, notice the word - their.

3. I have observed many ITF training videos and can honestly say that our WTF affiliated school teaches as much if not more thorough SD techniques, mostly hapkido and judo based, very effective.

4. It drives me crazy how ITF persons are constantly blaming or assuming that it is WTF affiliated organizations that are the main problem with TKD because they are exposed to the olympics. This has been the under lying tone of this forum for a long time.

5. I honestly do not believe that enough ITF people truly understand WTF training and philosophy and insist that our training does not match or even exceed the ITF syllabus.

6. Our full contact sparing does serve a good purpose and can be very painful even with all the protective gear, broken ribs, jaws, teeth, head injuries, don"t even want to here the pitty patter crap that many like to spew. I have an injury that is more than three years old and will not heal! I admit our sparing does not resemble real fighting but one needs to remember, it is not suppose to! non WTF people do not get that, therefore can not relate. I could attempt to explain it but my suggestion would be that one participate in some of our tourneys, maybe then they will have an understanding of what it is and appreciate the value. Oh and did I mention that many students never even participate in competition, so what are they training for day in and day out, nothing?

6. People keep forgetting that the sparing is a very small part of what most WTF schools train but that is most of the criticism of WTF schools, there is much more going on and no one will give credit, they keep harping on our sparing even though they never even tried it. This drives me crazy!

7. Many of our instructors are former ITF instructors! there might be some good reasons to come to the dark side but many old school will never even try to understand what it"s about. It is no more money motivated than any ITF organization.

8. Many ITF organizations do not fully train their own syllabus but still criticize WTF affiliated schools for not having a standard syllabus or fully following the ITF syllabus. So if many are not training their own syllabus can you really even call it a standard syllabus? obviously not.

Conclusion, WTF, ITF need to cooperate and come to a conclusion as to what components from each is worthy and incorporate them into one strongly defined system or this devision will never end and TKD will always be viewed as inferior. To do this ITF will need to let go of much of their past and except some of the good regarding WTF. After all if TKD becomes unpopular no one will care except those of us left behind pointing fingers. You are write about history being important and it is time to re-write it and move on, except that TKD has changed forever and unite both systems into one, only then will we have a true, whole and respected TKD.





Still waiting for someone, anyone to comment. Apologize for the anti ITF tone of this post just venting some frustration.


Edited by von1 (03/08/08 01:54 PM)

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#377729 - 03/08/08 02:37 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How come it seems that the only defenders or the most vocal defenders are ITF based?




Quote:

ITFUNITITY All respect but....I agree with much of what you post on this forum but feel that I must comment on your statement about why is it that ITF people are the ones that seem to always be defending TKD. What do you mean that this is the ITF syllabus? What were you referring to?





Wow, whoa, slow down!
Please read what I said! I never bad mouthed anyone or any style. I simple said with reference to this thread, that TKD does deserve somewhat its poor reputation in many instances for SD. This criticism was not limited to you, your school, the Kukkiwon, the WTF, the ITF, as all of these places, including mine, have weaknesses. All to some extent have been softened or corrupted over time. hence, the rise of MMAs to fill a void.
Now it seemed that the back & forth that was being exchanged, seemed to me to be myself, Mr. Anslow, Mr. Boik & other ITF type of TKD posters that were defending or explaning the present day perception of TKD with respect to loosing face/popularity.
I was merely wondering why non-ITF style students were not more vocal in the exchange.

I will not respond to the rest of your post, as it seems you have some pent up resentment to the ITF. I never have posted my way is the best way, or even better. In addition, I am a frequent critic of many things I see in the ITF. I try to refrain from commenting on things I have little experience with. Most of my entire exposure in the MAs has been to ITF TKD. It serves my purpose & I am continuing a life long pursuit of it, so I may better understand it more fully. I certainly am not a jack of all trades.





ITFUNITY


I realize that my post came across as too anti ITF for this I am sorry. To explain the tone of my posting I can only offer the following.

Most of the recognized experts and most vocal on this forum mainly consist of long time ITF people. Many times I have read things implicating or insinuating WTF organizations as a major cause of the down grading of TKD"s reputation. When one responds or wants to interject from a WTF perspective we get shunned as you did to me by refusing to even acknowledge any of my points. This is one reason you won"t get more input from WTF people, we are simply not significant enough to long time posters. I did not want to offend any one , I just wanted to post some of the frustrations that many WTF people encounter on this forum. I actually chose you because you are always willing to comment and even you wouldn"t. Again sorry if you feel I was too negative towards ITF it was more about wanting WTF participating organizations to be better understood and herd.



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#377730 - 03/08/08 05:53 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
matxtx,

the thing is that most arts when they start out are MMA in the sense they are made up of parts of various arts and go through a period of flux and change. As they get popular they might become sport-influenced and lose some of the more lethal or aggressive techniques.

Wrestling has loads of techniques which aren't used on the mat because theyve been banned in competition. The upshot is that many who have only learned wrestling since it stopped being used for fighting (as opposed to sport) don't know these techniques and aren't taught them by the coaches.

Boxing used to be all in until Marquis of Queensbury made it totally stand-up and MofQ rules. Before that it was not unlike Vale Tudo in many cases.

Even Kyokushin changed. Steve Arneill has commented that in the old days they did head punches, sweps and allsorts which they don't do today.

Part of the 'cleaning-up' process is because it goes up-market and rich people don't want to roll around on the floor (Savate used to have wrestling until it becme Boxe-Francais, I believe). Also dangerous techniques get limited (think Judo, developed from JuJitsu... morphed back into BJJ) or things get tarted up for consumer purposes (Shotokan, I believe). As situations and times change things get dropped and forgotten. So to a soldier fighting in a war, take-downs etc would be needed. Rolling on the floor for 20 minutes trying to get a choke on wouldn't be a good idea. Move to UK or USA and the public probably want something more like the TKD we know.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377731 - 03/08/08 06:04 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Yes von, I agree (although I've never been ITF).

However, those hands-down things...

I think this is where a Chang Hon evangelist can wangle their way in. As most attacks are probably punches to face (I have no evidence to support this)and CH-ists even compete with that in mind, it is an easier argument to use.

I mean, imagine an ITF guy and a WTF get into an argument and finally the ITF guy insults the WTF guy. The WTF guy says... "OK, buddy... you've asked for it... PUT 'EM DOWN"
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377732 - 03/08/08 06:14 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
WTF guy would pitty patter him to a pulp! all the while the ITF guy would simi kick and punch the wtf guy! doesn"t get any meaner than that.

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#377733 - 03/08/08 06:41 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY I realize that my post came across as too anti ITF for this I am sorry. To explain the tone of my posting I can only offer the following.
Most of the recognized experts and most vocal on this forum mainly consist of long time ITF people. Many times I have read things implicating or insinuating WTF organizations as a major cause of the down grading of TKD"s reputation. When one responds or wants to interject from a WTF perspective we get shunned as you did to me by refusing to even acknowledge any of my points. This is one reason you won"t get more input from WTF people, we are simply not significant enough to long time posters. I did not want to offend any one , I just wanted to post some of the frustrations that many WTF people encounter on this forum. I actually chose you because you are always willing to comment and even you wouldn"t. Again sorry if you feel I was too negative towards ITF it was more about wanting WTF participating organizations to be better understood and herd.





No problem whatsoever. I greatly respect the WTF, Kukkiwon & KTA for their great work in spreading TKD around the world. I have no problem with the WTF style (Kukki) students. I think that concentrating on a sport aspect, in order to be different from Japanese Karate, has has some downside. However, the poor reputation has so much more to do with the fact that insurance & businesses money makers have concentrated on making money & opening up to kids & everyone, which id good, but does have its downside. All these things affect the ITF, as we are just as guilty.
TKD is TKD. Of course there are differences & various things that are emphasized. In the end, it comes down to good school or bad school. It is a shame that there seems to be more McDoJangs than tuff SD TKD training centers.

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#377734 - 03/08/08 06:42 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Considering the Korean army was serving alongside the British and US army during the Korean war, perhaps it might be useful to see what these guys were using and being taught for SD by the military. I think if you look at British commando training you won't find long wrestling routines but 'get 'em down and kill 'em' routines. It might be useful in accepting a military mind set.



Good point!

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#377735 - 03/08/08 06:46 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY I also noticed that not one other person would acknowledge even one point accept badachaig and he is WTF. This is what I am talking about. To acknowledge would mean one may have to publicly document that there is some positive contributions from WTF organizations, very frustrating.




As posted, the WTF has made great contributions to the world of MAs. They have produced many strong students & have impacted countless lives in a very positive way, all around the world, bringing all types of people together, which is what it is all about!
I have no problem whatsoever with the WTF & their students.
My only disappointment is writing out Gen Choi, the ITF & the TKD Pioneers from history. I understand why it was done & see that it may be rectifed soon.

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